Dapol 'Western'

[southernelectric]

I'm sure the cause of the lighting problems has already been mentioned in this thread, (But I'm not trawling 110 pages to find it)

 

The issue is with the lighting board.   There is no overload protection, so if a short circuit occurs, the integrated circuit on the board starts to overheat.

I experienced this on the layout in the shop - the loco derailed and the leading bogie crossed the rails, causing a short.  Bang go the lights.

 

This is a consistent and repeatable problem.

 

The LEDs themselves are not affected as they are protected by their resistors, but the Integrated circuit that controlls them, is ruined.

 

Putting a DCC chip in fixes the issue (Which is why no-one running DCC has a problem) so you should have no concerns buying the model if you are running digital.

But, the circuitry should be right in the first place.

 

I did write to Dapol about this, when Richard was experiencing his problems, suggesting what I believed the cause of the problem to be, but got no response.

 

 

I'm having similar silly problms with the lighting in their N gauge HSTs (Works fine on DCC but not on analogue)

The model might look fabulous (and it does) and may be the most accurate ever, but it can only be a great model if the whole package (Electrics and mechanicals included) inside and out, is of the same quality.

 

The Western I had with non-working lights was not subject to a short circuit as far as I could tell. I placed it on the track and started to run it very, very slowly with a Gaugemaster Model D on my test track and in both directions the lights didn't work. It derailed after I established there were no working lights. Then just kept derailing, as it continued to do when it came back from DCC Supplies the first time.

 

I do want to convert mine to DCC operation, as I now have a Hornby eLink/Railmaster bundle (haven't set it up yet though as want to rebuild the laptop I will use for it).

 

So do I take my chances and go for the maroon/FYE one?

[Downendian]

It's a difficult one assuming what the "silent majority" will be, we simply do not have those data.

Maybe the bulk of 4mm Dapol class 22 and Western owners will not post here, or even read anything here.

 

Some will have bought their models to collect and/or display, will never need to run or get inside them as they dont have layouts. For these people the models are perfect.

 

Some will run DC only, will not need to get inside to fit chips, fit the outside headcode labels and run, again perfect, for their situation.

 

For those that need to run DCC, will need to dismantle:

Some will have perfect models - some won't. That we have established. I seriously hope the former are in the majority, but the issues highlighted in this thread rightly need airing, as there are solutions to them and should not put off potential Dapol purchasers. They are covered by a generous warranty and the service from DCC supplies is exemplary, no one has stated that this is not the case.

 

Neil

[southernelectric]

It's a difficult one assuming what the "silent majority" will be, we simply do not have those data.

Maybe the bulk of 4mm Dapol class 22 and Western owners will not post here, or even read anything here.

 

Some will have bought their models to collect and/or display, will never need to run or get inside them as they dont have layouts. For these people the models are perfect.

 

Some will run DC only, will not need to get inside to fit chips, fit the outside headcode labels and run, again perfect, for their situation.

 

For those that need to run DCC, will need to dismantle:

Some will have perfect models - some won't. That we have established. I seriously hope the former are in the majority, but the issues highlighted in this thread rightly need airing, as there are solutions to them and should not put off potential Dapol purchasers. They are covered by a generous warranty and the service from DCC supplies is exemplary, no one has stated that this is not the case.

 

Neil

 

Good points....but it's the hassle factor of sending it back I could well do without! I don't have a permanent layout yet, when I do it will be DCC but I will send the loco away for the name/number plate fitting and DCC conversion!

Edited August 6, 2013 by southernelectric

[Gwiwer]

Getting inside is not hard even if a screw is over-tightened.  I was reluctant to force the issue when I discovered two of my Westerns had that particular feature.  However with the other three screws out the fourth was easy to prise out socket and all without causing damage and doing so will not affect the reassembly and integrity of the loco.

 

I run DC.  I don't need to fit chips.  After one incident with a loosely fitted blanking plate I checked both the others I currently have and found one other was looser than ideal.  All have been pushed firmly home with no difficulty.

 

One cause of derailments has been found here to be the slight flash on the bogie suspension mouldings which as I mentioned is easily rubbed off with successful results.  Another might be the brake rods just touching other parts of the moulding as the bogie negotiates curves; it is possible to trim the ends off without affecting the appearance of the loco on plain track and without any change visible other than upon very close inspection.  That gains a precious millimetre or so at each end of the bogie and again may remove some of the causes of derailments.

 

If we treat these locos as something approaching RtR precision items as opposed to just good models then the fine tolerances to which they are built become perfectly acceptable but we require track to match; they may not run well over irregularities and mine already have a couple of point frogs they sometimes just peck on.

 

I fitted internal headcodes which look more convincing than the stick-on variety but use the same supplied characters; they are stuck to small pieces of scrap which are then secured behind the headcode "glass" and while there is a little light bleed this is better than having the vinyls obviously stuck outside.  I feel sure that had the feedback from the class 22 headcodes been able to have been incorporated into the Western design then we would have had internal displays supplied. 

 

On the whole I am happy with my purchases and accept that some of the minor niggles are more the fault of my track than the locomotives and that for the quality of the items I have value for money.  I recgonise that a few of us have rather more serious issues but as others have said this needs to be viewed in terms of the total build and the apparent satisfaction of the great silent majority.

[Chris Higgs]

Don't be put off !!

 

Remember - you haven't heard from the overwhelming silent majority who are perfectly happy with their Westerns and other Dapol models - amongst whom I number myself.

 

Just because there's a lot of 'noise' doesn't mean that the majority of models are defective - far from it!

 

Have a head count of those posters who report problems, and then compare that to the hundreds / thousands of models sold.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

I'm one of the silent majority. However, my Dapol 22 has hardly been out of its box, awaiting a P4 conversion and my (limited edition) Western is still on it's way. So I am silent because I have not reached the point where I might detect any faults relating to derailing, overheating lighting circuits and so on. So far I am just happy because my models look good (which they certainly do).

 

It is over-simplistic (and with my pedant mathematician hat on, logically wrong) to assume that just because thousands have been sold and their owners have not complained, that all of those models are perfect. Many are just 'status unknown'. Even the manufacturer cannot know just what proportion really are faulty.

 

Chris

Edited August 6, 2013 by Chris Higgs

[D1030western musketeer]

For the record and it has been mentioned a few times I have tried out 7 westerns including 2 returned from dcc supplies and all have derailed badly/lights not working and running very slow.

I was bitten not once but went on to find a good one but it was not to be.Know my 2 class 22s have also had lights stop working with all including the westerns burning out the blanking plate.

I run dc and have over 40 other makes of loco and had no problems with these to date.

To me it sounds to be a circuit board error somewhere but with the derailing of all westerns I gave up.

 

May be these faults can be ironed out before the next batch,but if we don't report these problems then how can it be sorted.

Poor qc also springs to mind.

 

Sorry for having to report my frustration but I waited and tried and listened to members help and offers for months but the models have failed me.

 

richard

 

 

[47137]

I am still debating whether or not to get a Maroon FYE one (Western Sultan - which I would change to Western Explorer) to add to the two blue FYE ones (Western Venturer - but will rename one to Western Thunderer) I have already.

I have a 'Venturer', currently without its name and number plates ... are there technical reasons for choosing 'Thunderer' as an alternative, or are there many other names/numbers which would suit the moulding of the Dapol 'Venturer'?

 

- Richard.

[D1030western musketeer]

Nothing wrong with thunderer a firm favourite of mine.

Will also suit ex venturer well as venturer would have had headboard clips removed one end in blue livery thunderer did not.

 

Richard.

[southernelectric]

I have a 'Venturer', currently without its name and number plates ... are there technical reasons for choosing 'Thunderer' as an alternative, or are there many other names/numbers which would suit the moulding of the Dapol 'Venturer'?

 

- Richard.

 

I just like the name 

 

Neither of my blue Westerns have their name and number plates fitted yet....I may even go with a different set of plates for Venturer, quite like D1015 Western Champion and D1016 Western Gladiator.

[southernelectric]

Nothing wrong with thunderer a firm favourite of mine.

Will also suit ex venturer well as venturer would have had headboard clips removed one end in blue livery thunderer did not.

 

Richard.

 

Does that mean the Dapol Venturer isn't accurate?

[cctransuk]

...........It's a difficult one assuming what the "silent majority" will be, we simply do not have those data.......

Neil

 

Precisely my point - we cannot extrapolate the postings here to be representative of the situation as a whole.

 

I was pointing out that, just because there has been a certain amount of negativity here, we cannot conclude that there is problem with a significant proportion of the Westerns produced by Dapol.

 

It was because some posters were drawing this conclusion, and being reticent to purchase, that I felt obliged to comment.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Chris Higgs]

Precisely my point - we cannot extrapolate the postings here to be representative of the situation as a whole.

 

I was pointing out that, just because there has been a certain amount of negativity here, we cannot conclude that there is problem with a significant proportion of the Westerns produced by Dapol.

 

It was because some posters were drawing this conclusion, and being reticent to purchase, that I felt obliged to comment.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Well (with my pedant mathematician hat back on), if Richard has sampled 7 locos in a row and every one of them demonstrates the same fault, then statistically the chance of that being "just bad luck" is actually very very small. It does suggests that the next loco probably would have the same fault, at least if it comes from the same batch. It is not necessary to check all locos in a batch to verify such problems, as those who work in QA will testify. So you can draw some conclusions from such a sample.

 

What Richard (D1030) did not really make clear is whether every loco he received did have a lighting problem, or whether it was just that each loco had some problem or other, which is a totally different matter.

 

Also if it can be demonstrated by a simple test that shorting out the lighting board causes it to burn out in a consistent and repeatable manner when running on DC, as Trains4U suggests, then you can be pretty certain that every loco with the same design of circuit board will have the same issue sooner or later (provided it gets used at all).

 

Chris

[brushman47544]

Does that mean the Dapol Venturer isn't accurate?

 

Technically yes, although since Dapol didn't actually fit the name and numberplates it's not incorrect until you do. The same is true of the Maroon SYP standard release - D1029 Western Legionnaire was one of those without headboard clips from new.

[Horsetan]

I'm sure the cause of the lighting problems has already been mentioned in this thread, (But I'm not trawling 110 pages to find it)

 

The issue is with the lighting board.   There is no overload protection, so if a short circuit occurs, the integrated circuit on the board starts to overheat.

I experienced this on the layout in the shop - the loco derailed and the leading bogie crossed the rails, causing a short.  Bang go the lights.

 

This is a consistent and repeatable problem.

 

The LEDs themselves are not affected as they are protected by their resistors, but the Integrated circuit that controlls them, is ruined......

 

How easy or difficult would it be to superimpose / add an overload protection circuit as an aftermarket part?

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Don't be put off !!

 

Remember - you haven't heard from the overwhelming silent majority who are perfectly happy with their Westerns and other Dapol models - amongst whom I number myself.

 

Just because there's a lot of 'noise' doesn't mean that the majority of models are defective - far from it!

 

Have a head count of those posters who report problems, and then compare that to the hundreds / thousands of models sold.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Laughable...John, you have no evidence to support your silent majority theory. You are assuming that anyone not posting about issues on websites must be 100% happy with their model(s). 

 

Dave

[steveb860]

I am 100% happy with my 3 Westerns and a cl22

[47137]

Technically yes, although since Dapol didn't actually fit the name and numberplates it's not incorrect until you do. The same is true of the Maroon SYP standard release - D1029 Western Legionnaire was one of those without headboard clips from new.

Supposing you have a Dapol Western in blue with full yellow ends (I think they all got this livery eventually) ... could someone possibly post a link or a brief statement to show which locomotives the model can (or if easier cannot) represent without modification? Sorry if this is already posted, I have read quite a lot of this thread but I couldn't manage all of it.

 

- Richard.

[Geoff Endacott]

Strictly speaking, none of them. The red route indicator discs as depicted on the model has all gone by the time the Talisman clips were fitted. (I know that some Westerns ran in their later years with enthusiasts' modifications, but the added discs were not in the same place.)

 

Ignoring the red discs, the Dapol model of D1005 will not represent any of the Westerns withdrawn before the Ealing accident and D1007 Western Talisman itself. (I can sort out a list later if people are interested.) 

 

Also, delete D1025-29 inclusive which didn't ever have headboard clips, those which lost them one one or both ends (including D1005 and D1040) and those with added cab ventilation (D1012, D1024, D1028, D1056, D1071).

 

Geoff Endacott

[railroadbill]

"Should have taken more notice of information in this thread

could have read more carefully what Nidge and others said

 

Thought my syp 52 was finished but I spoke too soon

windscreen pillars should have been light grey and not (blasted) maroon".

 

I'm sure it's been said already, but - how light a grey should be used? Great pics posted earlier look almost white?

[47137]

Strictly speaking, none of them ...

Here is a spreadsheet based on Geoff's information above, with what I believe are valid locomotives highlighted in green ... I think most of us who want an accurate model would welcome corrections to this list or a similar table for other liveries.

 

- Richard.

 

Edit:

Attached spreadsheet deleted ... there is a more complete version with my posting at 00:19 on 8th August.

Edited August 8, 2013 by 47137

[Phil Bullock]

Not forgetting the drivers name card holders gentlemen

 

Absent on Swindon locos and the Dapol model - present on Crewe built - (was that all locos - the preserved examples certainly conform!)

So that rules out anything above 1029 unless corrective action is taken....

 

Phil

[Geoff Endacott]

That's a good start - it saves me a job too.

 

What I don't know is which of the locos withdrawn in 1974 (if any) didn't survive long enough to get the extended battery box clips.

 

There are also others which lost one or both sets of headboard clips - I just don't have the details to hand.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Geoff Endacott]

Not forgetting the drivers name card holders gentlemen

 

Absent on Swindon locos and the Dapol model - present on Crewe built - (was that all locos - the preserved examples certainly conform!)

So that rules out anything above 1029 unless corrective action is taken....

 

Phil

 

...and the Dapol model has the overhead warning flashes in the Swindon position rather than the Crewe one.

 

Geoff Endacott

Edited August 7, 2013 by Geoff Endacott

[Rugd1022]

Strictly speaking, none of them. The red route indicator discs as depicted on the model has all gone by the time the Talisman clips were fitted. (I know that some Westerns ran in their later years with enthusiasts' modifications, but the added discs were not in the same place.)

 

Ignoring the red discs, the Dapol model of D1005 will not represent any of the Westerns withdrawn before the Ealing accident and D1007 Western Talisman itself. (I can sort out a list later if people are interested.) 

 

Also, delete D1025-29 inclusive which didn't ever have headboard clips, those which lost them one one or both ends (including D1005 and D1040) and those with added cab ventilation (D1012, D1024, D1028, D1056, D1071).

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Evening Geoff,

 

Regarding the cab front vent locos, D1012, D1028, D1039, D1056 and D1071 had the prominent square type fitted below the driver's front window in 1971, while D1024 and a few others had the smaller almost invisible rectangular ones cut into the underside of the roof peak earlier than that. I can't remember off hand without digging out the right book, but D1045 and D1052 seem to ring a bell.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Rugd1022

[D1030western musketeer]

D1045 also carried different windscreen wipers.D1049/1065 and D1071 also lossed headboard clips on one end.

As phil mentioned the Dapol western is based around a Swindon machine.

 

Richard.