Wright writes.....

[Barry O]

I had to turn the sound levels of the diesels on Shap down when we used the Duettes first used. Once the Gaugemaster (dc) controllers were installed they had a distinct lack of grunt which now has been fixed by Andrew.

 

Baz

[polybear]

Can anyone tell me if Birchwood Casey Super Blue will actually work on a brass chassis please - the bottle suggests it's intended for steel.  Thanks

[john new]

30 minutes ago, polybear said:

Can anyone tell me if Birchwood Casey Super Blue will actually work on a brass chassis please - the bottle suggests it's intended for steel.  Thanks

Not sure if that is the one I bought tried based on recommendations but it wouldn’t work cold. The bottle is currently inaccessible and I didn’t note it in my posts after the trial. @CF MRC recommended a make when I was up at Missenden recently. Can only suggest buying in person from a gun-shop but checking the notes on the bottle first (I didn’t)  no idea where you live but Sportarm in Dorchester is my nearest. They have been helpful, for example you can buy shot for short gun cartridges but not the cartridges to split yourself if you haven’t a gun licence. 

 

Edited March 25 by john new

[Chuffer Davies]

33 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Bob,

 

That all makes sense. 

 

Certainly, the DCC-fitted Heljan 47 certainly displayed no lack of power, and with the wick turned up, one could certainly hear it! 

 

Testing it on just DC was in response to a request by a potential customer asking if there would be a 'drop-off' in performance without DCC control. There was no drop-off (the loco easily exceeded the prototype's top speed in scale and any more engine noise would have been annoying). Of course, we had no idea which DC supply the customer has, and Helmsman O Gauge controllers are certainly at the top end for power delivery. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

There is frequently confusion regarding the relationship between controllers and locomotives. There are two components at play, volts and amps.  
The maximum volts available are directly the result of the transformer’s windings and would typically be around 15volts ac (alternating current) for an analogue system.  This reduces to around 12volts after being rectified to dc (direct current).  If the voltage supplied is too high then you can end up burning out the motor so  you would be ill advised to use e.g. a 20 volt power supply on a typical OO analogue system.

The amps are dependent on the efficiency of the motor, I.e. the demand the motor makes on the supply.  Modern coreless motors typically draw between a quarter and a third of an amp.  Older soft iron cored motors will draw between half to one amp.  An under powered controller may not be able to supply sufficient amps to the motor, in which case the motor will not perform to its full potential.  Conversely a high powered controller (e.g. one designed for O gauge being used on a OO layout) will permit the motor to work to its maximum potential with no risk to the motor.

 
I am not fully up to speed on DCC systems but the rules above will still apply.  The lower the available amps delivered by the supply the less power will be available to be shared across all the locos running on the system.  LEDs and sound systems will increase the demand that an individual loco will place on the control system, but traction current will always be significantly more than the additional power demands of lights and sound.

The size of the layout is unlikely to impact this significantly although it is good practice on larger layouts to run a copper wire power feed to every individual rail rather than rely on fishplates to conduct the current.  Nickel Silver  track has a higher electrical resistance than copper wire and fishplates can also introduce further resistance. A layout wired with only one power feed to the track will exhibit a loss of voltage the further away from the feed you get, whereas a layout with a copper wire feed to every rail will have very little resistance so it is unlikely you would notice a voltage loss unless the layout was enormous. 

[Erudhalion]

40 minutes ago, polybear said:

Can anyone tell me if Birchwood Casey Super Blue will actually work on a brass chassis please - the bottle suggests it's intended for steel.  Thanks

 

I realise it isn't exactly the same product, but I've used Bircheood Casey Perma Blue (which is also meant for steel) on brass. It sort of works, but I seem to get thick black layer that chips easily if I leave it too long. I have used a cotton bud to rub it on and that works better, but the result isn't perfectly black, although good enough for coupling hooks and the like.

[GH in EM and O]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

Can anyone tell me if Birchwood Casey Super Blue will actually work on a brass chassis please - the bottle suggests it's intended for steel.  Thanks

Hello Brian,

 

I have used this on Brass. Just make sure it is perfectly clean first.

[stewartingram]

50 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Older soft iron cored motors will draw between half to one amp.  An under powered controller may not be able to supply sufficient amps to the motor, in which case the motor will not perform to its full potential.  Conversely a high powered controller (e.g. one designed for O gauge being used on a OO layout) will permit the motor to work to its maximum potential with no risk to the motor.

 

I question that amperage on older iron-cored motors. As a lifetime (now retired) electronics engineer, I also did train repairs for local shops including a couple of Hornby agents. Typical max values for an X04 fitted loco (note, not just the motor) always were no more than 250mA when they passed through my servicing. The H/D locos drew more current; if they approached 500mA they certainly needed a service and probably a remag. In good condition they would be no more than 350mA.

[Chuffer Davies]

43 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I question that amperage on older iron-cored motors. As a lifetime (now retired) electronics engineer, I also did train repairs for local shops including a couple of Hornby agents. Typical max values for an X04 fitted loco (note, not just the motor) always were no more than 250mA when they passed through my servicing. The H/D locos drew more current; if they approached 500mA they certainly needed a service and probably a remag. In good condition they would be no more than 350mA.

Hi Stewart,

As you will appreciate it is difficult to generalise and I was hedging my bets with regards these estimates because of the vast range of motors that have been used by the hobby over the last 60+ years.  A loco kicking its legs upside down in a cradle will draw far less current (amps) than the same loco hauling the maximum of which it is capable.  Mashima motors under max' load would probably be in the range you suggest but the Hornby Dublo loco under max' load would be getting towards 1 amp.  The message I was trying to get over is that when selecting a transformer/controller combo (for analogue) you should not exceed 12volts max on the track.  The more amps that the system can support the better especially if you are running multiple DCC locos on a single power supply.

Frank 

Edited March 25 by Chuffer Davies
wrong name

[Willie Whizz]

Just a thought, but if those auctioned locos had “never run”, and if the builder had never intended that they should, then did he even go to the not inconsiderable expense of fitting them with motors?  If not, then perhaps an average of £27 a pop doesn’t sound quite so unreasonable. 

[BMS]

Today I fitted a Neomodium magnet to an ex 3 rail 65 years old H-D Castle with their 1/2in motor (similar to Triang/Hornby X03/4 but not the same). original DC start minimum was 2.8V, 120 ma which reduced to 2.4V 100 ma with the new magnet. A 2 rail H-D R1, slightly newer same type of motor had an initial start of 7.6V 500ma, with the new magnet dropped to 5.6V and 390ma.

Both demonstrate IMHO that the state of the magnet can have quite effect on power needs. Also the variation between apparently similar items in our world. 

Edited March 25 by BMS
tidied units

[26power]

Finescale P4/S4 exhibition model railway layout "CHISLEDON" for sale at auction next week. 

Not really sure where the best place to post this was on RMweb but thought here might be most the likely for this to be seen by those who might be interested, or know someone who might be!

 

For sale here (Lot 305):

https://auctions.gcrauctions.com/catalogue/lot/d4da10c5ec26c2ba0e5f3169f7cbe101/61ad83272971a65b1b45f1d4d620c5f8/auction-of-general-railwayana-a-wide-selection-someth-lot-305/

 

Auctioneers description:

"P4/S4 exhibition model railway layout "CHISLEDON" built by Dave Barrett, MSWJR, two 4' boards modelled to an exceptionally high standard being a medal winning layout in its exhibition time in the early 2000s, complete with rolling stock, modelled signal cable & point runs, appears on the P4 Club website, Pendon standard, dust free."

 

I've no personal interest in this; just thought it looked like it might be something that would appeal to someone.

[Steamport Southport]

I recently picked up a motorless DJH NER 4-4-2 for just a little over that £27 average which I took pity on. Spuriously painted in BR Black.

 

I haven't really had a chance to have a good look at it yet, but seems to be quite well built. So probably meant as a shelf queen I expect.

 

If I remember I'll try and take a couple of pictures of it before dismantling and rebuilding.

 

 

Jason

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Willie Whizz said:

Just a thought, but if those auctioned locos had “never run”, and if the builder had never intended that they should, then did he even go to the not inconsiderable expense of fitting them with motors?  If not, then perhaps an average of £27 a pop doesn’t sound quite so unreasonable. 

And the wheels wouldn't have to go round either!

[Paul Cram]

Birchwood Casey do Brass black for use on brass.

[polybear]

8 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

Just a thought, but if those auctioned locos had “never run”, and if the builder had never intended that they should, then did he even go to the not inconsiderable expense of fitting them with motors?  If not, then perhaps an average of £27 a pop doesn’t sound quite so unreasonable. 

 

Though if the wheels are Markits/Romfords then that'd make them very cheap locos....

 

 

[Barry O]

On 26/03/2024 at 05:53, polybear said:

 

Though if the wheels are Markits/Romfords then that'd make them very cheap locos....

 

 

Only if they were built recently. Markets yes.. older Romfords had big, deep  flanges and you may need to turn them down to stop them running on newer track chairs.

 

As @St Enodocsdays no motor, no need to move.. can lead to frustrations with no clearance, shorts.. you could spend a fair bit of time (and money) getting them to work.

 

baz

Edited March 28 by Barry O
Spellung

[Coach bogie]

You need to check the wheels. I once bought a no motor loco thinking a nice easy job to add a motor and discovered all the driving wheels were all live. Clearly for a display case.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

There is frequently confusion regarding the relationship between controllers and locomotives. There are two components at play, volts and amps.  
The maximum volts available are directly the result of the transformer’s windings and would typically be around 15volts ac (alternating current) for an analogue system.  This reduces to around 12volts after being rectified to dc (direct current).  If the voltage supplied is too high then you can end up burning out the motor so  you would be ill advised to use e.g. a 20 volt power supply on a typical OO analogue system.

The amps are dependent on the efficiency of the motor, I.e. the demand the motor makes on the supply.  Modern coreless motors typically draw between a quarter and a third of an amp.  Older soft iron cored motors will draw between half to one amp.  An under powered controller may not be able to supply sufficient amps to the motor, in which case the motor will not perform to its full potential.  Conversely a high powered controller (e.g. one designed for O gauge being used on a OO layout) will permit the motor to work to its maximum potential with no risk to the motor.

 
I am not fully up to speed on DCC systems but the rules above will still apply.  The lower the available amps delivered by the supply the less power will be available to be shared across all the locos running on the system.  LEDs and sound systems will increase the demand that an individual loco will place on the control system, but traction current will always be significantly more than the additional power demands of lights and sound.

The size of the layout is unlikely to impact this significantly although it is good practice on larger layouts to run a copper wire power feed to every individual rail rather than rely on fishplates to conduct the current.  Nickel Silver  track has a higher electrical resistance than copper wire and fishplates can also introduce further resistance. A layout wired with only one power feed to the track will exhibit a loss of voltage the further away from the feed you get, whereas a layout with a copper wire feed to every rail will have very little resistance so it is unlikely you would notice a voltage loss unless the layout was enormous. 

Good morning Frank,

 

Your post is very sensible; thank you.

 

Of possible relevance, the 'failure' of DCC locos to work on LB has nothing to do with voltage drop (I'm not suggesting you implied that with regard to Bytham). 

 

Bytham has five busbars (mains copper cable) running all the way around, attached to the underneath the baseboards. Four of these run underneath one rail of each of the main circuits (colour-coded) and a fifth (black) is the common return. My convention is that every section of the 'west-side' rail (no matter how short) of the track is attached to the common return via copper wire droppers soldered to the outside of the rail and the busbar. The same procedure applies to the 'east-side' rails of the four main circuits and their associated sidings. Pointwork is, obviously, wired into the system by polarity switches. Every circuit is divided into four 'zones'; two each for the main circuits on the scenic section and two each (Up and Down) for the fiddle yard. All of these can be switched on/off (which makes fault-finding easier to accomplish). There is absolutely no voltage drop anywhere. 

 

The puzzle was that in any of the eight sections in the fiddle yard, the DCC-fitted locos 'obeyed' their commands perfectly. Yet, in the scenic sections, the locos either wouldn't start at all or, if they'd started in the fiddle yard, just kept running under no control (even the 'panic button' did nothing when pressed!). Howard Smith and I could only surmise that it was the point and signal controls which were causing interference, even though everything was switched off (I even pulled out the plugs). 

 

Accepting my (self-imposed) ignorance of DCC, it's this kind of phenomenon which makes me stick with good old analogue. Since I did most of the track wiring (though Tony Gee once had to help me out when a point's microswitch just bamboozled me), I 'understand' how it works (up to a point - no pun intended), and I'll stick with that. I doubt if LB will ever be under DCC-control (or lack of it) ever again!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[thegreenhowards]

Why they should work in the fiddle yard but not on the scenic section is a complete mystery. They were obviously getting traction current to keep moving, but not receiving the DCC commands. I can only put it down to the ‘sir’ effect. It’s well known that all locos, layouts etc. misbehave when you have been invited to view them!

 

Andy

[Chuffer Davies]

36 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Why they should work in the fiddle yard but not on the scenic section is a complete mystery. They were obviously getting traction current to keep moving, but not receiving the DCC commands. I can only put it down to the ‘sir’ effect. It’s well known that all locos, layouts etc. misbehave when you have been invited to view them!

 

Andy

I too have experienced the ‘Sir’ effect when operating exhibition layouts.  As soon as Sir appears you can be sure chaos in one form or another will ensue.  Nearly as bad is the appearance of a video camera when previously silky smooth running locos start to stutter and wagons that have trundled successfully countless times around the layout spontaneously fall off on a piece of plain track.

[Chuffer Davies]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Frank,

 

Your post is very sensible; thank you.

 

Of possible relevance, the 'failure' of DCC locos to work on LB has nothing to do with voltage drop (I'm not suggesting you implied that with regard to Bytham). 

 

Bytham has five busbars (mains copper cable) running all the way around, attached to the underneath the baseboards. Four of these run underneath one rail of each of the main circuits (colour-coded) and a fifth (black) is the common return. My convention is that every section of the 'west-side' rail (no matter how short) of the track is attached to the common return via copper wire droppers soldered to the outside of the rail and the busbar. The same procedure applies to the 'east-side' rails of the four main circuits and their associated sidings. Pointwork is, obviously, wired into the system by polarity switches. Every circuit is divided into four 'zones'; two each for the main circuits on the scenic section and two each (Up and Down) for the fiddle yard. All of these can be switched on/off (which makes fault-finding easier to accomplish). There is absolutely no voltage drop anywhere. 

 

The puzzle was that in any of the eight sections in the fiddle yard, the DCC-fitted locos 'obeyed' their commands perfectly. Yet, in the scenic sections, the locos either wouldn't start at all or, if they'd started in the fiddle yard, just kept running under no control (even the 'panic button' did nothing when pressed!). Howard Smith and I could only surmise that it was the point and signal controls which were causing interference, even though everything was switched off (I even pulled out the plugs). 

 

Accepting my (self-imposed) ignorance of DCC, it's this kind of phenomenon which makes me stick with good old analogue. Since I did most of the track wiring (though Tony Gee once had to help me out when a point's microswitch just bamboozled me), I 'understand' how it works (up to a point - no pun intended), and I'll stick with that. I doubt if LB will ever be under DCC-control (or lack of it) ever again!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

A real quandary indeed!  Logic demands that the locos must have been getting traction current from somewhere other than the DCC command station when on the scenic section.  Did you try unplugging the DCC from the mains whilst the train was traversing the scenic section?  My guess is that  the train would have continued to run until it got back to the fiddleyard. If it happens again give me a call and I’ll try to help you diagnose what’s happening.

Frank

Edited March 26 by Chuffer Davies
Wrong word

[john new]

3 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Why they should work in the fiddle yard but not on the scenic section is a complete mystery. They were obviously getting traction current to keep moving, but not receiving the DCC commands. I can only put it down to the ‘sir’ effect. It’s well known that all locos, layouts etc. misbehave when you have been invited to view them!

 

Andy

This may or may not be relevant but it reads a bit like something that happened years ago on a club layout. Could there be any random pathway for power through something like the ballast or point rodding?

 

On that club layout one mystery section that would not isolate, eventually traced to current getting through the ballast. We never really solved why, possibly a stray strand of copper from wire, but it went away after the ballast was removed and the section redone. Possibly something in the glue that is conductive. 

 

It possibly only shows up with the DCC enabled as everything is on/live at the same time whereas normally the section with the fault is off so the path doesn't exist.

 

Edited March 26 by john new
Punctuation error.

[Tony Teague]

2 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

I too have experienced the ‘Sir’ effect when operating exhibition layouts.  As soon as Sir appears you can be sure chaos in one form or another will ensue. 

#Me too#

[Tony Wright]

An excellent day's running on Bytham with two chums.

 

All was going well until an A4 at a fair speed ran into the back of a goods train in the fiddle yard, scattering hapless wagons asunder! 'Operator error' I exclaimed, 'just my incompetence'. Except it wasn't. Yet another Seep point solenoid had failed. Even by my dubious maths, that's a 20% failure rate in these wretched things since 2008. 90 installed, and far too many gone west! I think a complete programme of replacement is called for, using Peco surface-mounted units.

[Tony Wright]

Regarding Seep point motors........................

 

When Rob Davey and I installed the 90-odd in 2008, I was getting on for 62 (Rob's not that old). I was quite capable then of installing the motors underneath each point, then wiring them up. Now, 16 years later, I'm finding it not so easy - not installing the motors but unscrewing them and disconnecting the wires. Reconnecting the wires from the Peco surface-mounted motors to the power feeds is equally tricky - knees, thighs and back complaining loudly! At least installing the surface-mounted motors is a doddle once the under-board wiring is completed. 

 

Looking back at decisions I made in 2008, one I really regret is not paying the extra £1.50 for Peco point motors, thinking I was being prudent by saving some £150.00 in buying Seeps. Wrong! 

 

I don't think I'm alone as the years progress, realising (inevitably) that once-easy tasks become a bit of a drudge.