DENT STATION with CHESTERGATE

[67A]

Final few guys...

 

Holbeck has been charged with getting A3, 60041 Salmon Trout back to Edinburgh St. Margarets with a semi-fast via Carlisle and the Waverley Route. Oh if only it was still possible!

 

The A3 strolls through with its light loading of seven coaches

 

The premier express on the Settle-Carlisle is the 'Thames-Clyde Express' and the 'Down' service is in the hands of Royal Scot 4-6-0 46115 'Scots Guardsman' as even this prestige train is held by the P-Way slack.

 

In the opposite direction the second premier service on the S&C the 'Up Waverley' has the assistance of a Class 5 4-6-0 No. 44999 ahead of the train engine, Jubilee 4-6-0 No. 45562 'Alberta' heading for Leeds and its home depot of Holbeck.

 

Both premier trains pass each other adjacent to the goods yard heading for Carlisle and Glasgow St.Enoch and Leeds and St. Pancras respectively.

 

Thanks for looking, more next week!

[67A]

Hi Mike just catching up. Nice pics of the 37s running as a pair. Now the pic of the signals (as I drool over them lol ) the one on the approach to the tunnel wouldn't have a distance if it was a long one ... due to the next peg at danger. If it was a short tunnel then it could have one. I know there was a banner for the distance somewhere on the S&C but I can't put my finger on the location.

Hi Mark,

 

I'm sure the banner was at the southbound entrance to Blea Moor Tunnel.

 

So you would opt for the single home signal then. Tongue twister that!

[LNER4479]

Another great set of pics.

 

I agree re the signal, ie NOT the home and distant together (attractive though it is). To have the two together implies a short block section and the S&C is not known for such things! Even in its hey day, the signalboxes were pretty evenly spaced out, every two or three miles or more.

[Ray H]

I believe that the provision of a distant in this situation depends (generally) on the proximity of the next controlled signal(s). The purpose of the distant signal is (loosely) to give the driver an indication of whether the signals at the next box were clear - distant off - or whether the driver should at the time he passed the distant, be prepared to stop at one of the signals to which the distant relates. This would initially be the first stop signal controlled by the next box and if the line was clear beyond that signal the driver would be brought almost to a stand at that first (stop) signal which would then be cleared to allow the driver (with his engine & any train!) to "creep" up to a subsequent signal at danger.

 

Mike - The Stationmaster of this parish (and possibly others) - will advise whether a banner signal would be appropriate. I don't believe that banner signals, which were basically repeaters for badly sighted (stop?) signals - were necessary for distant signals which, in a way, could be described themselves as (significantly in advance) repeaters for the subsequent stop signals.

 

I don't know how long the tunnel is/was so can't definitely advise on the normal method of working in a situation like this - viz: where it is necessary to draw ahead to enable the train to be set back into the refuge siding. Obviously the signal could be cleared for the train to do that. This would be accomplished by offering the train to the box in advance (using the shunt into forward section bell signal) and once the train is clear of the main line and safely in the siding, cancelling that move.

 

I believe that we touched on this earlier and proffered the suggestion that the section signal - for this is what the signal concerned is (if there isn't a signal controlled by Dent ahead of it) - may be far enough in advance to allow a train to proceed as far as that signal and once clear of the points, stop and the route set for the siding and then the train authorised to set back.

 

On reflection I suspect that either method of working could be inappropriate if a (long) tunnel is involved as there is every chance that the smoke in the tunnel from the train (and any other) engine may be enough to prevent the driver seeing the guard's hand signal to set back.

 

Here endeth my attempt to clarify the situation.

 

Have you provided the sighting boards for a specific reason? The background doesn't look that confusing to me.

 

Puts detonators on track to protect the innocent and beats a hasty retreat in case he's goofed!

[67A]

Another great set of pics.

 

I agree re the signal, ie NOT the home and distant together (attractive though it is). To have the two together implies a short block section and the S&C is not known for such things! Even in its hey day, the signalboxes were pretty evenly spaced out, every two or three miles or more.

Hi,

As an aside I really enjoyed the article in Model Rail this month, what a layout!

 

Thanks for the signal info, its looking like the single home then. The other is pretty though!

[67A]

I believe that the provision of a distant in this situation depends (generally) on the proximity of the next controlled signal(s). The purpose of the distant signal is (loosely) to give the driver an indication of whether the signals at the next box were clear - distant off - or whether the driver should at the time he passed the distant, be prepared to stop at one of the signals to which the distant relates. This would initially be the first stop signal controlled by the next box and if the line was clear beyond that signal the driver would be brought almost to a stand at that first (stop) signal which would then be cleared to allow the driver (with his engine & any train!) to "creep" up to a subsequent signal at danger.

 

Mike - The Stationmaster of this parish (and possibly others) - will advise whether a banner signal would be appropriate. I don't believe that banner signals, which were basically repeaters for badly sighted (stop?) signals - were necessary for distant signals which, in a way, could be described themselves as (significantly in advance) repeaters for the subsequent stop signals.

 

I don't know how long the tunnel is/was so can't definitely advise on the normal method of working in a situation like this - viz: where it is necessary to draw ahead to enable the train to be set back into the refuge siding. Obviously the signal could be cleared for the train to do that. This would be accomplished by offering the train to the box in advance (using the shunt into forward section bell signal) and once the train is clear of the main line and safely in the siding, cancelling that move.

 

I believe that we touched on this earlier and proffered the suggestion that the section signal - for this is what the signal concerned is (if there isn't a signal controlled by Dent ahead of it) - may be far enough in advance to allow a train to proceed as far as that signal and once clear of the points, stop and the route set for the siding and then the train authorised to set back.

 

On reflection I suspect that either method of working could be inappropriate if a (long) tunnel is involved as there is every chance that the smoke in the tunnel from the train (and any other) engine may be enough to prevent the driver seeing the guard's hand signal to set back.

 

Here endeth my attempt to clarify the situation.

 

Have you provided the sighting boards for a specific reason? The background doesn't look that confusing to me.

 

Puts detonators on track to protect the innocent and beats a hasty retreat in case he's goofed!

Hi Ray,

 

Thanks again for the input, whatever I think I've learned about signalling I seem to forget!

 

Just to clear up a point, the tunnel on the layout is wholly fictitious and is simply a scenic break so length could be ???? if it suits. From Dent station there was the Starter near the platform, followed by the Outer Home and then a Distance leading onto 'Dent Head' Box section.

 

For my purpose I will presume the tunnel is a short one allowing the driver of any train the possibility of reversing into the lye-by. I would have loved to use those pair just for effect, they are from an old layout and not made for Dent. All the signals used on the layout are 'recycled' from old projects and will in time be operational - I hope!

 

To all who have contributed to this debate its certain the single home signal has won the debate! Many thanks guys, it really is a weak point in my knowledge. Watch this space.

[Ray H]

How far away was the next box?

 

I think distant signals were generally placed between 1200 and 1500 yards prior to the first signal they related to so if your next box was that close you may be able to use the combined stop/distant signal. That distance was line speed related and designed to enable the fastest and/or the heaviest trains to come to a normal - i.e. not emergency or sudden - stop at the next stop signal after the distant signal.

 

Can I just clarify that the first signal a driver sees (and thus the one furthest from the box) is the distant (as the train approaches the signal box), there are then any number of stop signals - depending on the complexities of the layout. The last of those (stop) signals is I believe now called the section signal and in the old days would have been called a/the starter (or starting) signal. Similarly, the first (stop) signal the driver encounters after the distant signal is regarded as the home signal.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Ray H

[67A]

How far away was the next box?

 

I think distant signals were generally placed between 1200 and 1500 yards prior to the first signal they related to so if your next box was that close you may be able to use the combined stop/distant signal. That distance was line speed related and designed to enable the fastest and/or the heaviest trains to come to a normal - i.e. not emergency or sudden - stop at the next stop signal after the distant signal.

 

Can I just clarify that the first signal a driver sees (and thus the one furthest from the box) is the distant (as the train approaches the signal box), there are then any number of stop signals - depending on the complexities of the layout. The last of those (stop) signals is I believe now called the section signal and in the old days would have been called a/the starter (or starting) signal. Similarly, the first (stop) signal the driver encounters after the distant signal is regarded as the home signal.

Hi Ray,

 

Ah ha! It begins to make sense now the terminology has sunk in! I will check on some books after work to find out the distance to the next box, 'Dent Head'. It was between 'Arten Gill' and 'Dent Head' viaducts, the next feature south was 'Blea Moor Tunnel' which had the repeater banner at its entrance.

 

I have just checked my book properly and it shows there was NO 'Up' distance signal in the diagram for Dent Station Box, the 'Starter' close to the platform was followed by a 'Home' positioned beyond the Lye-by crossover, this was lever No.4 and lever No.5 was 'Spare' so possibly an intention to install a distance was left if needed?

 

Off to work now....

[Donw]

When the line was built signals would have been mechanically pulled  so the position of the distant is limited by the location of the box. Your terminology seems a little strange to a GW follower. The sequence (in steam days) should be  Distant, Outer Home, Home, Starter , Advance Starter with the Outer Home and Advance Starter not used in many cases. Sometimes the Distant is fixed which would allow it to be placed further in front of th station than if it had to be pulled off. The reason if was fixed could be for a Terminus station where the train would need to stop anyway.

Don

[Andrew P]

Morning Mike, sounds like the Signalling will be sorted soon, but at least that wont stop normal service Play Time, hahhahha.

[mark axlecounter]

When the line was built signals would have been mechanically pulled  so the position of the distant is limited by the location of the box. Your terminology seems a little strange to a GW follower. The sequence (in steam days) should be  Distant, Outer Home, Home, Starter , Advance Starter with the Outer Home and Advance Starter not used in many cases. Sometimes the Distant is fixed which would allow it to be placed further in front of th station than if it had to be pulled off. The reason if was fixed could be for a Terminus station where the train would need to stop anyway.

Don

The pulling of the levers is to clear all stop signals then the distant. The pic is Hellifield you have to clear 42,41,40,39 before the distant 43 can be cleared

hope this helps

Edited October 27, 2014 by mark axlecounter

[Donw]

The pulling of the levers is to clear all stop signals then the distant. The pic is Hellifield you have to clear 42,41,40,39 before the distant 43 can be cleared

hope this helps

I meant the sequence along the track not the sequence of pulling them off. 

Don

[Reorte]

I meant the sequence along the track not the sequence of pulling them off. 

Don

As I understand it they are (usally? try to be?) the same thing.

[67A]

Hi all,

 

Nipped home for lunch...

 

Below is a photo of the interior of Dent Box', I'm unsure of the date but with all the white levers I presume its following the removal of the 'Up refuge' and 'Up-Down' slip and crossing.

 

 

The list of levers I have from the Anderson & Fox book are: 

 

1. Up Distant AR.LR.NC (1217 yds)

2. Up Distant AR.LR.NC (388 yds)

3. Up Starter HNC

4. Up Home AR.LR (Outer/Section?)

5. Spare

6. Down platform end to siding slip points

7. Down refuge platform end exit Ground signal

8. Goods exit Ground signal

9. Down slip to Goods siding points

10. Up to Down crossover slip points

11. Spare

12. Spare

13. Down refuge to Main crossover points

14. Ground signal for exit via 13 (or calling forward to 7?)

15. Up refuge exit Ground signal 

16. Up refuge crossover points

17. Down starter

18. Spare

19. Home HNC (Outer?)

20. Distant AR.LR.NC (1250 yds)

 

Garsdale: 3M 660 YDS   -   Dent HEAD: 1M 1540 YDS

 

Most of the descriptions are my interpretation as the list is just numbers, I have no idea what the letters refer to?

 

I have noticed looking properly that the distant is on the approach and not the exit so the double would definitely be wrong.

 

Apologies if I have been told this previously but the memory is not what it was! Thanks for all the input I've decided on the single Home signal at the tunnelmouth.

 

However here I go again! Could it have anything else to allow a train to reverse into the siding? Runs for cover!!!

[Andrew P]

Nice pic Mike, I still have to work out how a box works, so your helping me get my little head around it,

 

Cheers mate.

[mark axlecounter]

Andy I have been signalling for 6 years. Still dont know how to do it

 

Mark

[mark axlecounter]

I meant the sequence along the track not the sequence of pulling them off. 

Don

Ah got you now sorry

 

Mark

[Reorte]

Most of the descriptions are my interpretation as the list is just numbers, I have no idea what the letters refer to?

There's a description of the letters at the signalling diagram guide at the start of the book but even knowing what they stand for doesn't necessarily leave me any the wiser! IIRC "AR" is "arm repeated" - is that a repeater in the box showing the signalman the state of a signal? "NC" I think is "Normal Contact" (I'm at work so don't have the book handy to check), described earlier in I think this thread. Can't remember at all what LR is.

[Donw]

Mike I cannot say because I don't know the box but it sounds to me that you have the starters and homes confused and the single at the tunnel mouth if it controls access to the next section would be a starter at least that is how I understand things.

Don

[LNER4479]

I'm intrigued by the presence of two distant levers (Nos 1 & 2) in the up direction. Assuming that No.1, at 1217 yds was immediately at the exit of Rise Hill tunnel (to the north of the station) then No.2 seems a very short distance away (just round the curve beyond the bridge), ie insufficient to give warning to a train moving at express speed.

 

Earlier, you seem to have been referring to the possibility of the distant arm on the (rather nice!) combined 'home and distant' signal you were considering being operated by 'your' (ie Dent) box. This would not normally (never?) be the case. Under traditional block signalling, the distant arms were always worked by the box ahead (as it - the distant - gave advanced indication of the stop signals at that box, which the previous box would know nothing about). SO for a 'home and distant' signal, the 'home' (more likely the starter - or even advanced starter) arm would be worked by the 'your' box whereas the distant arm would be worked by the next box. The arrangement would be 'slotted', ie both boxes would have to pull their respective levers before the distant arm raised.

 

(If I have misread your previous posts and you knew this already then my apologies and please ignore the above!)

Edited October 27, 2014 by LNER4479

[Andrew P]

There's a description of the letters at the signalling diagram guide at the start of the book but even knowing what they stand for doesn't necessarily leave me any the wiser! IIRC "AR" is "arm repeated" - is that a repeater in the box showing the signalman the state of a signal? "NC" I think is "Normal Contact" (I'm at work so don't have the book handy to check), described earlier in I think this thread. Can't remember at all what LR is.

Loo Roll Holder?

 

Hat Coat etc.

[Reorte]

Ah, so that's what's meant by "slotted"! I've wondered about that...

[Reorte]

Loo Roll Holder?

 

Hat Coat etc.

So you'd expect it on the Down Distant?

[Donw]

Lets try to agree terms here for a simple station the home signals control access into the station. The starters control access into the next section. Distants belong to that box indicate the state of the signals at the station i.e. the distant will warn the driver is the home and starter signals are on ( on means dont pass). I have said  Homes and Starters because there will be both for both up and down (termnii excepted).

In a larger station there may be more than one home an Outerhome which controls access into the station from the previous section  and a Home (sometimes inner Home ) which controls access into the platforms If there is more than one platform or access to the loop for goods there may be  a number of home or possibly a route indicator. Similarly the Outer Starter will control into the next section awhile the Starter proper will permit movement from the platform(s) so there may be a number of starters.

 

Like others I am puzzled by the double distants. Two arms (high and low) yes but pulled by one lever.  If there had been a relief road from the previous station or quadruple track two distants would make sense.

 

Have I got anything wrong baring special cases.

 

Don

[mark axlecounter]

The double distants signalling was common the first dis would warn drivers that the next dis will be at caution. It was all about line speed and the gradient .So the up line where the two distant's were the line was going down hill and the line speed was greater. I hope this helps 

 

Mark

Edited October 27, 2014 by mark axlecounter