RMweb Premium Reorte Posted October 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 27, 2014 Looking at the gradient diagram it's level just before Dent station, and uphill before that. The station is lying on a slight summit. Could it be something to do with the curve through it? No stop signal before the platform seems a bit peculiar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Hi all, I hope its not all getting too technical and I now know the signal I will be using will be a single Home and I am very happy with that and all the input, it may take me a while to digest all the information but I have to say signalling was always a black art to me and now know that I had always thought the distant applied to trains heading out of the box' control and not into it! My whole world has been turned around! I will just add that the double distant is strangely correct, the first is just out from Rise Hill tunnel and the second is close to the aquaduct (pipe) just prior to the Coal Road bridge. There is NO home prior to the platform. Many thanks once again guys I am now on the straight and narrow! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 There's a description of the letters at the signalling diagram guide at the start of the book but even knowing what they stand for doesn't necessarily leave me any the wiser! IIRC "AR" is "arm repeated" - is that a repeater in the box showing the signalman the state of a signal? "NC" I think is "Normal Contact" (I'm at work so don't have the book handy to check), described earlier in I think this thread. Can't remember at all what LR is. Apparently: Light Repeated........now I know where to look. Doh! thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted October 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 27, 2014 Hi all, I hope its not all getting too technical and I now know the signal I will be using will be a single Home and I am very happy with that and all the input, it may take me a while to digest all the information but I have to say signalling was always a black art to me and now know that I had always thought the distant applied to trains heading out of the box' control and not into it! My whole world has been turned around! The more I find out about signalling the more complicated it sounds! Personally speaking I find that finding out how things work is interesting enough in its own right though, so that's fine for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Lets try to agree terms here for a simple station the home signals control access into the station. The starters control access into the next section. Distants belong to that box indicate the state of the signals at the station i.e. the distant will warn the driver is the home and starter signals are on ( on means dont pass). I have said Homes and Starters because there will be both for both up and down (termnii excepted). In a larger station there may be more than one home an Outerhome which controls access into the station from the previous section and a Home (sometimes inner Home ) which controls access into the platforms If there is more than one platform or access to the loop for goods there may be a number of home or possibly a route indicator. Similarly the Outer Starter will control into the next section awhile the Starter proper will permit movement from the platform(s) so there may be a number of starters. Like others I am puzzled by the double distants. Two arms (high and low) yes but pulled by one lever. If there had been a relief road from the previous station or quadruple track two distants would make sense. Have I got anything wrong baring special cases. Don Pretty much, as I understand it. I believe the key phrase is 'station limits' ie from the first (outer) home to the last (advanced) starter. That is the signalman's domain and he is at liberty to instruct drivers to move, shunt, detain (etc) their trains within that area according to operational requirements. The other point perhaps to highlight is that the phrase 'station' can apply to a goods station as much as a passenger station - although nowadays we are of course used to the vast majority being the latter - so there's a slight danger of getting too fixated on the location of platforms in relation to the signals. And in the case of Dent Head there was neither a passenger or goods station - it was just a block post to avoid having an overlong section. I hope Mike is OK with this thread hijack?(!) And I'm very happy to be put right by a real life signaller such as Mark (dead jealous of him operating Hellifield!) - I'm just an enthusiastic amateur by comparison. The Kitchenside & Williams signalling book was my introduction to this fascinating topic some 30 years ago - recommended reading as the so called 'mysteries' of signalling are explained in simple and logical terms (IMHO). 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted October 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2014 The double distants signalling was common the first dis would warn drivers that the next dis will be at caution. It was all about line speed and the gradient .So the up line where the two distant's were the line was going down hill and the line speed was greater. I hope this helps Mark The GWR near where I lived was fairly gentle and we had the AWS. In a DMU running close behind another train you could hear the klaxon as every distant would be on. Don 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted October 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2014 Intermediate block posts were used to increase line occupancy by splitting long sections. I believe understanding the signalling and how the railways were worked, helps with modelling as it gives a real feel for the place. Mike's model captures the look the right signals will add to that. Don 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2014 Oh dear, this seems to have veered off in some most peculiar directions so let's try to get down to basics and basics at Den (with due respect to the commonsense which has already come across from that chap with the layout over on the dryside at Grantham plus some from Rayi). In the Up direction Dent had, as already outlined, 4 signals, a Distant (No.1 I think), an Inner Distant (No.2), a Home Signal (misdescribed as the Starter in respect of a 9F standing at it in a pic in post 1573), and the Up Starter - described in modern parlance as the Section Signal because it controls the entrance to the block section in advance. In the Down direction there was a Distant, a Home Signal and a Starter. All seem quite logically placed with the Home Signals protecting the pointwork and the commencement of Station Limits. Station Limits is a signalling/operating expression and has nothing whatsoever to do with the presence or lack of a station. As has already been explained lots of operating practices were permitted in Station Limits which were not permitted in a block section. The block section from the 'box in rear ends at the outermost Home Signal (i.e the first one an approaching trains reaches) but is controlled by the Signalman at the advance end as he works the block instrument for that section and has the responsibility of ensuring that a passing train has cleared the section complete with tail lamp. The position of signals in relation to any station platform is totally irrelevant except in areas where trains are likely to run at close headways and traffic is dense. In an area such as this the Up Home Signal would have to be 440 yards in rear of the platform to offer any block working advantage when a train is standing at the station and in any case the Signalman couldn't see the tail lamp so logical to have the Home Signal just in rear of the signalbox although it could delay an approaching train should any shunting be taking place - but then Dent was basically a quiet spot which simply passed on most trains and recessed some freights. No the interesting Up Distants. Well I have had to work out why they were like that so this is me speaking and not an official explanation but I think the inner distant was there to minimise delays climbing up the gradient towards Dent. What would happen at busy times - and there were some in early days - is that with a succession of northbound trains Dent might not get 'Line Clear' in time to pull off the Distant - the outermost of the two and the one which gave full braking distance to the Home Signal for fast trains. But if with a slower train (in particular) the Signalman got 'Line Clear and could clear the Home & Starter (and thus the Inner Distant) before an approaching train reached the Inner Distant the Driver would see that cleared and know that he now had a clear run through Dent and needn't slow down ready to stop at the Home Signal. It was basically a simple pragmatic solution as I see it - to avoiding too many problems for slower running (in particular) trains as they climbed towards Dent and reflected the earlier situation when Hawes Jcn had been in the position of despatching successions of light engines northwards on busy days & nights because it was where trains which had been assisted from Carlisle had dropped their assistant engines. Next question(s)? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted October 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2014 A good explanation Mike. I assume the curve had something to do with the extra distant as well. It would prevent the driver seeing the home signa until quite closel. I have always understood that if a train was not expected to stop the driver on seeing the distant on would be trying to judge his speed so he could stop at the home if need be but not slowing too much hoping the home would clear before he got there. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hi all, Fascinating subject! And I am honestly learning something from every post. In Mike's (Stationmaster) post I now know the 1st Home signal close to the platform is NOT a termed a 'starter' its simply the 'Home'. I surmised it as a starter due to its proximity to the platform. I think its akin to legal jargon - kept complicated to confuse the masses! I will now label all my signals with the correct terminology and this will add to the realism when the layout is fully operational e.g. working signals. For the time being I do have all the switches in position on the control panel for the the operation of signals and I think I will make a conscious effort to run the layout 'properly' instead of simply turning the controller on! Really appreciate all the info and I'm now ready to apply for that vacancy at Hellifield as Mark was on relief they must need a permanent man/woman! 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Morning Mike, Like you say, learning a lot and taking things on board helps to run the Layout more prototypically helps with the pleasure of its running sessions as well. Loving it, Mike the Stationmaster, Ray H and Don W, along with many others contributed to the knowledge I now have on Bitton, its the power of the R M Web. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2014 A good explanation Mike. I assume the curve had something to do with the extra distant as well. It would prevent the driver seeing the home signa until quite closel. I have always understood that if a train was not expected to stop the driver on seeing the distant on would be trying to judge his speed so he could stop at the home if need be but not slowing too much hoping the home would clear before he got there. Don Possibly Don although a banner repeater would have done just as well if it was simply a matter of better advance sighting for the Home Signal. Hence my conclusion that it was far more related to perceived/real operational needs, in the way I explained, rather than simply a matter of signal sighting in respect of the Home Signal. The effect of having a banner for the Home Signal could still mean that a train would be unnecessarily slowed in comparison with that of having the inner Distant . The use of a second distant in this manner was rather unusual although it could be found on the London Extension of the Great Central - more or less to the end of that line's life where the inner Distant was basically what some of us have called 'a hurry-up signal' reminding (or now informing) a driver that he's got a clear road and in the case of the GC effectively saying 'let 'em run'. At Dent it would have been more a case of 'you can keep on slogging up the bank'. Don't forget the basic purpose of a Distant Signal is to indicate to a Driver the state of the stop signals on his line at the next signalbox - thus the outermost Distant Signal (should there be more than one) has to be at full service braking distance from the first stop signal (the Home Signal). If a Distant is at caution the Driver will adjust the running of his train to ensure it can be smoothly and safely brought to a stand at the Home Signal - if the Distant is off he will know that all the stop signals applying to the line he is on, and to his train, are also off so he has no need to reduce speed and prepare to stop. One or two other little bits and bobs - AR = Arm Repeater (not 'repeated') LR = Lamp Repeater (similarly) NC = Normal Contact HNC = Home Normal Contact - this and 'NC" are in respect of interlinking (to use the old word) between the position of signal arms and the block circuits. Going to another Company the GWR did not have Outer Home Signals - the outermost Home Signal on the Western was always called the Home Signal. Getting back to Dent and a more general situation on signal naming the usual (or seemingly most common) way of doing it was that running line stop signals in rear of the signalbox were Homes and those in advance of it were Starters (don't mention bay platforms ). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hi all, Thought I would offer up a little mid-week update. I thought I would make a start on the station building detailing... The two faces of the building as it stands with an overall coat of Humbrol No. 84 Here I have chosen the small toilet annex to describe my methods for anyone interested Here I have mixed some brown enamel with some thinners (grey was for something else) Application of first wash Basically rubbed into all the nooks and crannies A little later a light buffing with a rag and a little dry brushing Now moved onto the main building, more of the same. Continue tomorrow... 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Looks good mate, nice colouring again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Very realistic Mike and looks easy if you know how! Kind regards, Jock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Morning Mike, I wont be plaguing you for a couple of weeks as I'm away and the Flip Flop is going in for repair, I'm looking forward to catching up and seeing some more inspirational pics on my return. All the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Morning Mike, I wont be plaguing you for a couple of weeks as I'm away and the Flip Flop is going in for repair, I'm looking forward to catching up and seeing some more inspirational pics on my return. All the best. Ah! No pressure then, I'll take a holiday myself and Dent can wait for your return, what a blissful picture that situation paints. Thing is Andy you should have left the return notification blank as I would be thinking "Andy may be back next Friday-Saturday-Sunday etc. Now I know I can go visit the Severn Valley and PESTER YOU for a change! Hahaha 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Hi Andy, I got that exited I forgot to wish you good luck and happy hol's! All the best mate, make sure Dee looks after you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 Hi all, Bit of a quiet week but managed a little more detailing on the Station Building... The whole of the building was treated to a wash of brown enamel as previously described and here are the results... The next job was to fit the ornate entrance foyer frontage. This is a number of York Modelmaking laser-cut parts all pre-painted prior to fitting. I mounted the parts to a separate 2mm thick piece of Perspex as used for all my buildings. I doors were supplied as a closed pair but I decided to leave the doors in a partially open position. This was the entrance and exit for passengers using the station. The small roof over the foyer is at a shallower slope than the main roof and again I have used 2mm Perspex as its foundation. I really can't wait to get the drainpipes, guttering and slates fitted! I can't speak highly enough of York Modelmakings' commissioned parts, the quality is superb. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 Not been playing trains much either but here are a few shots to finish off the week... Unrebuilt Royal Scot 4-6-0 No. 46151 'The Royal Horse Guardsman' is piloting yet another Royal Scot No. 46114 'Coldstream Guardsman' on an 'Up' express Parcels service. Doubtless this class member will be heading for Derby and a rebuild very soon! The train thunders toward Widdale tunnel Here the pair ignore the Home signal at danger, the bobby in the box has offered them the green flag! Sitting quietly in the 'Down' refuge ex:LMS 3F 0-6-0 No. 43474 is in charge of the pick-up goods and has reversed into the siding to allow passage of a northbound service before commencing its shunt movements. I have selected a number of stock items and fitted 'Kadee' couplings to allow for some shunting and have placed three magnets under the track for this purpose in the 'Down' refuge and one in the 'Up' refuge, I decided not to fit any on the main line to avoid unwanted uncoupling! 43474 will deposit a loaded coal wagon and a van in the station siding and collect the empties before heading for Garsdale and other points north. Hope you enjoy, more next week. 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted November 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2014 Mike, Can I echo what you said about York Modelling. I have some windows from them and they made some specials for me, not cheap but not expensive for what you get. The station building is coming on a treat and looks really good. I do like the un-rebuilt Royal Scott, they always look so chunky and powerful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 Mike, Can I echo what you said about York Modelling. I have some windows from them and they made some specials for me, not cheap but not expensive for what you get. The station building is coming on a treat and looks really good. I do like the un-rebuilt Royal Scott, they always look so chunky and powerful. Hi Chris, I'm partially with you on the Scot'. It seems odd when a smaller looking machine is classed as more powerful but I did prefer the looks of the Rebuilts'. I was lucky enough to see a handful before they were withdrawn. I especially liked the smoke deflectors those curved lines reminded me of something but I was too young to realise! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 Hi all, Dent had its first official RMWeb member' visit when Ray (Tender) and his good lady Polly (Southern) called in after their stint at the Wallasey show on Saturday. I'm sure they enjoyed the visit, I mean tea and biscuits followed by playing trains - what more can one want! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Evening Mike, Great pics as usual and from the above post, you could become the Wirral's foremost model railway attraction! Kind regards, Jock. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Evening Mike, Great pics as usual and from the above post, you could become the Wirral's foremost model railway attraction! Kind regards, Jock. Hi Jock, Oh I do hope not! To be honest it gets quite busy here on occasional Friday evenings when there has been 6 guests on one occasion! Hope your'e doing okay down there in those southern climbs, take it easy Jock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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