Hornby Star Class

[Andy Y]

A suitable point to waft a couple of shots under your nose then from the, now dusty, pre-prods.

 

 

 

 

[gwrrob]

A suitable point to waft a couple of shots under your nose then from the, now dusty, pre-prods.

 

Star1s.jpg

 

Star2s.jpg

 

Do they need running in by the GWR mafia ?

[Andy Y]

Not got 'em; honest! 

[Miss Prism]

And how long have you been sitting on those pictures, Andy?

[coachmann]

The production model does appear to have copied the pre-production model except for the missing tender lining, though both models lack the orange lining that went on the front bufferbeam strengthening plates (shown in red)....

 

I presume the bufferbeam is lined out also....

Edited October 25, 2013 by coachmann

[gwrrob]

Do I need to remove the upper tender lining on a post war G badge W liveried version then.

[Andy Y]

And how long have you been sitting on those pictures, Andy?

 

Only since last weekend; got some other stuff too (already seen in public) but haven't had chance to post it yet.

[Miss Prism]

Do I need to remove the upper tender lining on a post war G badge W liveried version then.

 

First find yourself a pic of a post-war G badge W liveried version with a flush-riveted Churchward 3500g tender...

 

Haven't we been round this loop before?

[gwrrob]

Haven't we been round this loop before?

 

Probably but I've been to sleep since then. A little bird tells me 5091 still had Churchward upper tender lining in 1946.A photo of it in Nocks 'Stars,Castles and Kings' book.

[Miss Prism]

Probably but I've been to sleep since then. A little bird tells me 5091 still had Churchward upper tender lining in 1946.A photo of it in Nocks 'Stars,Castles and Kings' book.

 

Yes, but that's a 'special'...

 

An oil-burning Star would be good modeller's licence though, particularly for Brent.

[coachmann]

Just as a tailpiece, all the Stars and Saints shown in colour in 'The Big Four in colour' carry a roundel and lining on the upper panel of their small tenders.

 

 

 

Do I need to remove the upper tender lining on a post war G badge W liveried version then.
 

 

 

All the photos uncovered today were of 'Star' class locos with 4000 gallon or similar after the war, in which case lining was never on the upper panel. I'm not sure if any still had the 3500 gallon type. The 'Saints' did however, so it might prove useful to see how these locos were lined out after the war.

 

Edited October 25, 2013 by coachmann

[mow]

This was on an email link this evening.

 

http://www.Hornby.com/shop/2013-range/steam-locomotives-and-packs/r3166-gwr-knight-of-the-grand-cross-4000-class?utm_campaign=Hornby_Newsletter_183665_Issue_76&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=CM_hornby

 

 

Apologies if posted elsewhere.

[Gilwell Park]

Great Western Way is singularly vague about lining on tenders pre-WWII, but I think there remains a legitimate 1930s question over the lining of the fenders on the Churchward 3500g. For the post-WWII period, notwithstanding the detailed official painting spec*, I'm scratching my head as to whether there were any 3500g Churchward tenders still qualifying for express passenger livery - Roger's upthread observation from Gone With Regret of 4013 at Chester in 1946 with a 3500g with G crest W seems an exceptional case. Does that pic show any lining?

 

* Given in GWW and on Ian Rathbone's site, but note his tender lining illustration pictures are of Lode Star in early livery style.

Miss Prism

 

Having just read your post I shot upstairs to find the book. However I cannot distinguish any lining whatsoever on engine or tender.  In fact I painted my model of 4013 in plain green on the strength of that picture.  There is also a picture of 2931 in the same book in G crest W livery, again I cannot distinguish any lining whatsoever. 

 

Sorry not to be of more help.

 

Roger.

[Hilux5972]

So it appears looking at kernows pics that the Star is not a victim of design clever. The smoke box dart is a separate fitting and from the pics it appears all handrails are desperate fittings. Do we have a return to the fantastic standards of the Castle and Grange with thus release?

[Hilux5972]

The kernow pics if 3166 show lining on the upper fender if the tender too. Hornby seem to have hit it right with this one

[Neal Ball]

Those photos of Andy's look good. Pre-ordered mine through Hattons this morning.... At 06:30 .... I must have known!

 

Looking forward to seeing it at Wharncliffe Junc........

[Coach bogie]

4013 at Chester in 1946 with a 3500g with G crest W seems an exceptional case. Does that pic show any lining?

* Given in GWW and on Ian Rathbone's site, but note his tender lining illustration pictures are of Lode Star in early livery style.

 

From my notes, the exception is 4013 being attached to a 3,500 gallon tender post war, when 4,000 gallon tenders had become the norm. Most of the Stars had become northern region engines post war and would have required the extra capacity. There were a few at Bristol for Shrewsbury runs, though diagrams sent them to Exeter and beyond on occasions, but they all had 4,000 gallon tenders to my knowledge.

 

There is also a published shot, at Chester of Saint, 2987 Bride of Lammermoor with a 3500g with G crest W in 1948. Emulsion has not picked up any lining. All the surviving Saints retained 3,500 gallon or intermediate tenders with G crest W until the LNWR lined black began to appear.

 

Here is Saint David in the 1930's with an intermediate tender where the top fender has not been lined

 

http://mapgrouproadtransport.co.uk/p988706297/h54a24df4#h54a24df4

 

And Ivanhoe in 1936 with A Collett again top fender unlined

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=4022+belgian+monarch&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=WOZqUtjIF4qUhQfT0YD4Dg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=597#q=gwr+star+class&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_uQ3NchgNrQ2BM%3A%3BArur_kTizaIhBM%3B_uQ3NchgNrQ2BM%3A&imgrc=_uQ3NchgNrQ2BM%3A%3Be6Wdv4G0_O-aQM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.gwr.org.uk%252Fnotes%252Fsaint.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.gwr.org.uk%252Fno460s.html%3B406%3B202

 

There is the often published shot of Lode Star below, but myself and others are of the opinion this was staged.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POSTCARD-GWR-STAR-CLASS-LOCO-NO-4003-LODE-STAR-/360648586642

 

Mike Wiltshire

[melmerby]

Don't know whether this adds to the info, but in Whitehouse/St John Thomas's 'GWR 150 Glorious years' there is a colour shot of 4013 in 1938 at Shrewsbury,  heading to Birkenhead with roundel, full lining on small tender and a taller safety valve bonnet than on Hornby's 4018! ( no O/S steam pipes)

There is also 4020 at Reading in 1937 in exactly the same condition.

 

Keith

[coachmann]

This model has upper tender lining. Now I'm puzzled. Will the real production model please stand up.

Edited October 26, 2013 by coachmann

[Miss Prism]

The upper lamp iron should be lowered to be on the smokebox door for 4018's shirtbutton era.

 

Not convinced about the buffers, it's difficult to tell whether any prototypes had Collett taper type (which is what Hornby have put on) - most kept their Churchward taper types until late days, when Collett parallels tended to be replacements.

 

The thing that jumps out to me is the apparent fitting of a Castle outside cylinder set, which 4018 never had, but it will need a good side-on shot to confirm that.

 

Nice Grange chimney on 4061 (which is right, I think, for its last years).

 

The upper tender fender lining can be argued both ways, but it would have been a safer option for Hornby to have given a post-1927 GREAT coat of arms WESTERN on the tender, when upper fender tender lining was still mandated. And they could have then left the front lamp iron where it is!

[Multiple identity account 2]

This model has upper tender lining. Now I'm puzzled. Will the real production model please stand up.

The images what I posted (I.e. the Kernow ones) are the real one. 

[coachmann]

 

The upper tender fender lining can be argued both ways, but it would have been a safer option for Hornby to have given a post-1927 GREAT coat of arms WESTERN on the tender, when upper fender tender lining was still mandated. And they could have then left the front lamp iron where it is!

Lining was there on all the 1930s photos I've come across while looking into this, so if  you have any concrete evidence to support your alternative theory then be generous enough to share it with us. Where for instance have you read that this upper lining on GWR tenders began to be abandoned in the early 1930s?

[Miss Prism]

Where for instance have you read that this upper lining on GWR tenders began to be abandoned in the early 1930s?

 

I haven't read it, but I'm sure I've seen pics of unlined upper fenders, which I can't put my finger on now. (And besides which, Hornby seems to have also seen such an absence judging by their early EP.) Quite possibly I've put the emphasis the wrong way round, i.e. despite upper lining being dispensed with on all continuous fenders (e.g. the 4000g), the upper fender lining was still the norm on the Churchward 3500g rather than the exception. Tender swapping between express passenger and non-express passenger locos is also a factor in my opinion, as is the far longer repaint timescale for tenders. But I'm grateful for your observations and those of others in the last few days on the matter, and it is only by these debates that we can fill in some knowledge gaps. The problem area is that Churchward 3500g tenders were no longer being fitted to express passenger engines post 1932-ish (for Halls), the Counties had disappeared by then, so we are left with the 1932 to 1938 window in respect of the Saints and Stars. I have no issue with the post-1945 situation, but the only clear visible examples that have come to light are the 'full-monty' special behind the oil-burning 5091 and the individualistic practices of Caerphilly.

[coachmann]

I haven't read it, but I'm sure I've seen pics of unlined upper fenders, which I can't put my finger on now. (And besides which, Hornby seems to have also seen such an absence judging by their early EP.) Quite possibly I've put the emphasis the wrong way round, i.e. despite upper lining being dispensed with on all continuous fenders (e.g. the 4000g), the upper fender lining was still the norm on the Churchward 3500g rather than the exception. Tender swapping between express passenger and non-express passenger locos is also a factor in my opinion, as is the far longer repaint timescale for tenders. But I'm grateful for your observations and those of others in the last few days on the matter, and it is only by these debates that we can fill in some knowledge gaps. The problem area is that Churchward 3500g tenders were no longer being fitted to express passenger engines post 1932-ish (for Halls), the Counties had disappeared by then, so we are left with the 1932 to 1938 window in respect of the Saints and Stars. I have no issue with the post-1945 situation, but the only clear visible examples that have come to light are the 'full-monty' special behind the oil-burning 5091 and the individualistic practices of Caerphilly.

If you get the chance take a look at pages 110, 111 & 112 in 'The Big Four in Colour' by David Jenkinson. It is worth mentioning the original Churchward 4-6-0s were still seen as 'front line' power in the 1930s and were fully also lined out. The 'Saints' continued with 3500 gallon tenders even though the 'Stars' gradually acquired larger tenders.

[The Great Bear]

For the shirtbuttoned one, that's the first time I have noticed lining around the boiler right next to the cab (guess I just haven't been paying attention either to models or the prototype). As it's on the face of the cab (at least as done here), that would make my plan of turning Glastobury Abbey into a post-war GWR one a bit harder. (Or was this element of the lining omitted in the post-war scheme, in same way as lining below footplate level on cab, tender etc)

 

(Thought this was easier than getting the shirtbutton one and ditching the tender.)

Edited October 26, 2013 by The Great Bear