Hornby Star Class

[melmerby]

As the Shirtbutton logo was introduced in 1934, surely any locos so adorned with top rail painted tenders must have been done post 1934.

These are still top link locos so most would, I assume, have had more decoration than just the new logo applied.

 

All the pictures I have in books of small tender, Shirtbutton adorned express locos (where the lining is clear to determine!) have it in the late thirties (1937/38 & 39)

 

Keith

[melmerby]

I pre-ordered my R3166 in March.

 

My retailer (Model Railways Direct) has had a small delivery, unfortunately mine was not amongst them and the next delivery is not expected until 14/11/2013

 

Dribs and drabs from Hornby as seems to be the norm these days!

 

Keith

[Gilwell Park]

Miss Prism

 

Having just read your post I shot upstairs to find the book. However I cannot distinguish any lining whatsoever on engine or tender.  In fact I painted my model of 4013 in plain green on the strength of that picture.  There is also a picture of 2931 in the same book in G crest W livery, again I cannot distinguish any lining whatsoever. 

 

Sorry not to be of more help.

 

Roger.

Hi.

 

I now think that unlined plain green G crest W is correct for the immediate post war period.  The pictures I have quoted are dated 1946 & 1947. In Russells book there is a picture of 4035 ex works in 1946 in plain green " austerity livery " which probably lasted into BR days.

 

Roger

Edited October 27, 2013 by Gilwell Park

[7013]

May be dribs and drabs but at least we are seeing Hornby models coming through, It would be nice to see some photos and a review of said locos if anyone has one that they would like to share with us.

[robmcg]

As ever I would love to show photos of the GWR Star 4018 I have bought from Kernows but must wait until it arrives in NZ. Usually about a week but there may be storm disruption to air packet mail?   I have also bought three weathered GWR carriages; 2 Colletts and a Hornby Celestory brake to make some sort of c1937 train.

 

I am tempted to add a plate to remove the daylight below the front cylinders.

 

As ever with Hornby of late, patience is needed!

 

I hope Kernows won't mind if I show their photos of this lovely model here.

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2013 by robmcg

[gwrrob]

Look forward to seeing one of your creations then ,using 4018 as it's main ingredient Rob.

[Ozexpatriate]

Look forward to seeing one of your creations then ,using 4018 as it's main ingredient Rob.

Indeed. Rob, perhaps your next challenge will be to synthesize a recognizable location into your tableaux - like the Dawlish seawall, the Severn tunnel or Box tunnel?

[robmcg]

The problem with exact locations is   just HOW exact does one want to be?   Already I find I ought to lower the upper lamp bracket on BR steam engines if there is a hint of post-1963    and exact locations are, in the end, rather limiting although possibly very satisfying. Technically I could graft pictures of models onto photos, just to get things 'right'. But that wouldn't 'do it' for me.

 

I think that's what I loved about Hornby Dublo and models of that era; there were essentially 4 styles, 4 regions, but ultimately they were fairly representative models, until you built a more exact layout, and that's perhaps where the fun was.

 

For now, a train with believable carriages in believable circumstances will do, ...but I will certainly consider locations which are more 'real'.

[coachmann]

...but I will certainly consider locations which are more 'real'.

Clapham Junction?

[robmcg]

Clapham Junction?

 

Very nice, a chance to run my beloved West of England expresses AND boat trains and others,  but no exhaust speak of before Woking....    unless the crew were caught unawares by poor coal, delays, or were less-than-careful.  And all that third-rail track....    looks like WORK.

 

On the other hand, on cold days there WAS exhaust, and if I draw heaps of track I can just call it Clapham Junction  ....-ish.

[Ozexpatriate]

The problem with exact locations is   just HOW exact does one want to be? 

Rob,

 

You have the artistic license to do whatever you like. There are always critics - some helpful, some not, but you have displayed your work regardless of the critics, and for that, thank you.

[robmcg]

I will certainly enjoy doing a picture of a 'Star' with an apparent 400 tons behind making well-over 60mph on the level...  which would have been very inspiring to see in real life in pre-war days.  Very impressive that Churchward got it right so early in British railway history.  The Star has so much grace, rather like a Jubilee....  oops, did I say that?  <g>

 

My father b1920 had a lifelong admiration for the Castles, and we had a Hornby Dublo 3-rail 'Bristol Castle' on the front room floor around 1960 running at what we kids, or at least I, could work out by maths was a scale 60mph or so by timing it over a fixed distance on a circuit...  I'm sure I am not alone with that kind of memory.

 

Rob

[Ozexpatriate]

The Star has so much grace, rather like a Jubilee....  oops, did I say that?

There's a reason for that, wouldn't you say?

 

After all, a Jubilee is naught but a three-cylinder-ed Castle in as much as the Black Five is a warmed over Hall.

 

G. J. Churchward contributed much to locomotive design in Britain - not the least when he promoted young Mr. Stanier (at ~44) from the assistant works manager to works manager at Swindon in 1920*.

 

* At least I presume this was the purview of the CME. Churchward handed the reins over to Collett (then deputy CME and five years senior to Stanier) in 1922.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Ozexpatriate

[coachmann]

There's a reason for that, wouldn't you say?

 

After all, a Jubilee is naught but a three-cylinder-ed Castle in as much as the Black Five is a warmed over Hall.

 

G. J. Churchward contributed much to locomotive design in Britain - not the least when he promoted young Mr. Stanier (at ~44) from the assistant works manager to works manager at Swindon in 1920*.

 

* At least I presume this was the purview of the CME. Churchward handed the reins over to Collett (then deputy CME and five years senior to Stanier) in 1922.

It may look that way in simplistic terms but in fact Stanier developed the Jubilee and Black Five along different lines to the GW. GWR practice had come to a dead end and did not transfer to LMS requirements. He adopted outside valvegear for easier maintenance and 3-cylinders instead of 4 on second division locos. Then months were spent altering the ratio of superheating to fire tubes to suit poor quality coal. Then the sloping throatplate firebox came in to aid steam raising. When he and his team had finished they had set the standard for not only the LMS but also BR standard locomotive design which greatly assisted Ivatt and Riddles.. The only thing the GW handed to BR was its neat green livery with circumsised lining. On the last week of BR steam, amongst the survivors were original Black Fives from 1934. They had outlasted their BR Std cousins plus all the GWR, LNER and SR locomotives.

Edited October 29, 2013 by coachmann

[The Stationmaster]

I will certainly enjoy doing a picture of a 'Star' with an apparent 400 tons behind making well-over 60mph on the level...  which would have been very inspiring to see in real life in pre-war days.  Very impressive that Churchward got it right so early in British railway history.  The Star has so much grace, rather like a Jubilee....  oops, did I say that?  <g>

 

My father b1920 had a lifelong admiration for the Castles, and we had a Hornby Dublo 3-rail 'Bristol Castle' on the front room floor around 1960 running at what we kids, or at least I, could work out by maths was a scale 60mph or so by timing it over a fixed distance on a circuit...  I'm sure I am not alone with that kind of memory.

 

Rob

But don't forget Rob - no billowing clouds of smoke, we are talking about a Great Western engine not some miners' friend from a lesser Railway.  And I can't think that any pictures I have of 'Stars', even those working really hard, show them emitting much smoke.

[Ozexpatriate]

It may look that way in simplistic terms but in fact Stanier developed the Jubilee and Black Five along different lines to the GW. GWR practice had come to a dead end and did not transfer to LMS requirements.

Larry, I hope you realize my comment below was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek:

After all, a Jubilee is naught but a three-cylinder-ed Castle in as much as the Black Five is a warmed over Hall.

Clearly, Stanier evolved his Swindon legacy during his time at the LMSR to even better designs, and the Black Five might well be the most successful British steam locomotive ever.

 

The only thing the GW handed to BR was its neat green livery with circumcised lining.

I'll interpret this as being just as tongue in cheek as my earlier comment was!

[robmcg]

But don't forget Rob - no billowing clouds of smoke, we are talking about a Great Western engine not some miners' friend from a lesser Railway.  And I can't think that any pictures I have of 'Stars', even those working really hard, show them emitting much smoke.

 

Indeed!

 

Point taken. As with other pictures, I am generous with exhaust, but fully appreciate the relatively small amount of it with a well-fired well-driven engine, and equally how it can be impressive when working hard.

 

I shall peruse my books for photos of various GW express trains for guidance, and in particular recall a very impressive shot by M W Earley (I think) of a Star on a 4-track main line in a cutting , which really impressed me. May have had a horsebox behind engine... I remember thinking, "how did he get such superb lighting, detail sharpness and depth-of-field with a plate camera and a moving train?"

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

Edited October 29, 2013 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Another aspect of engines without much exhaust is that narrow firebox British engines had to have a fair bit of particular skill applied to them to keep raising steam, and that GWR 4-6-0s may have had this art down to perfection, with suitable coal.   Certainly not a very large fire-bed on a Star to sustain the steam-raising required for 15-total expresses, and a crew could hardly afford to lose the calorific value of the coal out of the chimney..

 

Are there not references in BR days to "the poor quality of coal?"

Edited October 29, 2013 by robmcg

[Unknown Warrior]

There's a reason for that, wouldn't you say?

 

After all, a Jubilee is naught but a three-cylinder-ed Castle in as much as the Black Five is a warmed over Hall.

 

G. J. Churchward contributed much to locomotive design in Britain - not the least when he promoted young Mr. Stanier (at ~44) from the assistant works manager to works manager at Swindon in 1920*.

 

* At least I presume this was the purview of the CME. Churchward handed the reins over to Collett (then deputy CME and five years senior to Stanier) in 1922.

 

Jubilees have very little to do with Castles. They were Patriots with a tapered boiler. The Patriot's boiler was designed at Crewe in the late 1920's to re-boiler the Claughtons and the bottom end was derived from the Royal Scots. Mr. Stanier had quite a struggle to make the Jubilees as good as the Patriots in the first instance, one occasion when  Wiltshire Wisdom had to learn a trick or two from Crewe and Derby - high degree superheat for a start!

Edited October 29, 2013 by Unknown Warrior

[coachmann]

 

..........and in particular recall a very impressive shot by M W Earley (I think) of a Star on a 4-track main line in a cutting , which really impressed me. May have had a horsebox behind engine... I remember thinking, "how did he get such superb lighting, detail sharpness and depth-of-field with a plate camera and a moving train?"

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

Mr.Earley used a Soho Reflex camera with Ross lenses, usually with plates rather than cut film. He got much of a train in focus by using a swing front. I beleve he was one of the few photogra[hers of his time to use a filter to bring out exhaust and clouds and added contrast.

Edited October 29, 2013 by coachmann

[robmcg]

Reminds me of the effect of focal plane? shutters which made the front of the train slightly bent forwards...  Also the many and various skills in setting-up, aperture and speed depending on speed of subject,  permanent way restrictions were GOOD especially if subject accelerating afterwards.

 

My own mentors were mostly 6x6 Rolleiflex or such as Mamiya medium format users of the 60s. I was far more 'arty' well, young and stupid, with a 6x6 'Toyocaflex' which gave way to a 35mm Leica and attendant grain HP3 in poor light...  our NZ railways have few places where steam trains don't make exhaust, except going downhill..  looking at Colin Giffords 'Each a Glimpse' I wish I had had his skill and patience too!

[melmerby]

My own mentors were mostly 6x6 Rolleiflex or such as Mamiya medium format users of the 60s.

A bit off topic, but I saw someone using a Mamiya (might have been a 645 or similar?) only last Thursday.

Getting film must be less than easy these days!

 

Keith

 

EDIT just seen that it is still widely avaialble.!

Edited October 30, 2013 by melmerby

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Another aspect of engines without much exhaust is that narrow firebox British engines had to have a fair bit of particular skill applied to them to keep raising steam, and that GWR 4-6-0s may have had this art down to perfection, with suitable coal.   Certainly not a very large fire-bed on a Star to sustain the steam-raising required for 15-total expresses, and a crew could hardly afford to lose the calorific value of the coal out of the chimney..

 

Are there not references in BR days to "the poor quality of coal?"

The GWR's practise was built around high grade Welsh 'steam' coals. These had all the virtues for a locomotive fuel. Good volatile content for rapid ignition and the high flame temperature that leads to complete combustion with little sooting. Near maximum energy content per unit weight possible from coal. Physically strong enough with a coking process during combustion to maintain the airflow through a deep fire bed. Low dirt and ash content and little of it fusible, so no clinkering of the grate with obstruction of the airspaces, or a rapidly filling ashpan; either of which will quickly limit the supply of oxygen.

 

While these grades were obtainable economically to the GWR from the South Wales collieries the fireman had a relatively easy time of it, the 'heaped' or 'haycock' deep firebed this coal enabled would reliably produce a sustained thermal output which a less ideal coal can only produce in a thinner firebed over a larger grate area. (It is the maximum volume of coal burning in the firebed, and the energy content of the coal, that ultimately sets the limit on the thermal output of any grate. When it came to coal fired warships, the maximum speed came down if they couldn't get 'Welsh'! Very sad stories of large warships on Empire duty having desperate trouble for steam when far from home supplies.)

 

Once all the economically recoverable high grade coals had been mined out, significantly lower grade fuel was perforce what had to be used. Steam production suffered, and the wide grate with high superheat formula pioneered in parts of the world where less wonderful grades of coal were the norm became the better way.

[Oldddudders]

in particular recall a very impressive shot by M W Earley (I think) of a Star on a 4-track main line in a cutting

Sonning Cutting, with the bowstring girder bridge? One of his best known locations, I think.

[The Stationmaster]

Sonning Cutting, with the bowstring girder bridge? One of his best known locations, I think.

 

He was also very fond of 'The Roebuck' footbridge area just west of Tilehurst station and the Reading West Junction/Scours Lane Jcn area.  The latter is now unrecognisable from steam days but the footbridge by what was 'The Roebuck' has just been replaced to electrification clearances and is one of the better looking 'new footbridge' jobs on the GWML.  'The Roebuck' ceased to be 'The Roebuck' in the 1980s if not earlier and gradually went down hill and turned into a B&B establishment for building labourers - but it has recently been very spruced up externally although its role in life is far from clear.  (btw it's not a bowstring bridge but an arch)

 

 

 

Once all the economically recoverable high grade coals had been mined out, significantly lower grade fuel was perforce what had to be used. Steam production suffered, and the wide grate with high superheat formula pioneered in parts of the world where less wonderful grades of coal were the norm became the better way.

 

There was still plenty of good quality Eastern Valleys coal available right up to the end of Western steam and beyond but the simple fact is that steam was being rundown and ovoids ('those bl**dy egg things' as most enginemen called them) were available at ludicrously low prices and became the staple of many depots.  they weren't too bad if mixed with coal but although they burnt very fiercely could be a nuisance to get going so I've been told on numerous occasions.