Modelling a traditional parcels train

[montyburns56]

Preston 1970 by curly42

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Is that BG really maroon or is it a trick of the light?

Gives me some leeway on liveries as I never remember seeing one whilst out spotting, only blue and b/g.

 

Mike.

[zarniwhoop]

4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Is that BG really maroon or is it a trick of the light?

Gives me some leeway on liveries as I never remember seeing one whilst out spotting, only blue and b/g.

 

Mike.

No idea, but it looks like a proper parcels train - unless I'm mistaken (possible) the middle van is Southern, coloured in shades of dirt.

[Nearholmer]

Looks maroon to me, and surely at that date not particularly unusual. There will still a few (filthy) old-colour parcel vans around in the mid, and possibly even late, 70s.

[Steven B]

Maroon Mk1 CCT in 1971 sandwiched between two SR vans, complete with BR Arrows and Rail Alphabet font lettering:

(John Turner on Flickr)

 

Steven B.

[90164]

18 hours ago, zarniwhoop said:

No idea, but it looks like a proper parcels train - unless I'm mistaken (possible) the middle van is Southern, coloured in shades of dirt.

All three vehicles are to pre-nationalisation designs, LMS, SR and LNER. The LMS BG looks to have maroon ends, so it's probably been repainted c. 1965.

[johnofwessex]

I dont know if the design might have been rather distinctive but Southern vans appear to me at least to appear in large numbers all over the place.

 

Were there a disproportionately large number of them?

[zarniwhoop]

2 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

I dont know if the design might have been rather distinctive but Southern vans appear to me at least to appear in large numbers all over the place.

 

Were there a disproportionately large number of them?

No idea how many non-Southern parcels vans there were, nor (offhand) how many BR CCTs or BGs, but (ignoring the SECR-style even planked CCTs which were all withdrawn by the mid 1960s) I did some counting (from books) a while ago (with a view to hoping to model 1966-71) and the numbers were:

 

uneven planked CCT 50, 46 still in use in 1971

plywood CCT 250, most still in use in 1971

PMV, even planked (built 1936-9, earlier builds withdrawn in 1950s) 250, most still in use in 1971

PMV, even planked with pressed steel sections (1942 build) 120, most still in use in 1971

PMV, uneven planked (built 1939-51) 300 built, Larkin asserts that repairs often used wide planking

plywood PMV 110

 

For my interest, the SR bogie vans are out of scope (I'm not going to model a newspaper train) so I haven't counted them, but I'm sure I've seen some in photos from late 60s or later on the South western division.

 

By my counting about 1080 SR CCT and PMV in the mid to late 1960s. of which 780 were PMVs.

 

But that is all hearsay numbers, the books I read might be wrong, and I might have miscounted.

 

[The Johnster]

No idea how many, but the Southern ‘Ashford’ PMVs and similar CCTs were almost certainly the most numerous 75mph NPCCS 4-wheel vans on BR from 1948 to about 1970 and there were still plenty around after that.  They were still being built into the 1950s.  Don’t let the ‘Southern’ fool you, 75mph 4- and 6-wheel NPCCS were pool vehicles, loaded anywhere, after Nationalisation, and you could see these Southern vans everywhere; there was probably one at Thurso by five past midnight on January the first 1948…

 

They were very useful and adaptable vehicles, cheap to build (don’t forget the early years of BR were during the postwar austerity period, and post war austerity measures were more stringent than they had been during the hostilities), and had fold-up hanging shelves for lighter loads.  Like all wooden bodied NPCCS, they got spectacularly filthy and it was often difficult to discern the liveries.  

[br2975]

On 01/09/2021 at 16:23, The Johnster said:

 

For some reason, the WR in the 60s and 70s never used 37s for passenger or parcels work despite the ER, NER, and Scottish regions having shown that there was no reason to prohibit them from such work.  

 

.

 I'd challenge your assumption.

.

South Wales had a batch of steam heated EE Type 3s in the D68xx series.

.

They were used regularly on West Wales passenger, sleeper, mail and parcels workings over a number of years; as well as excursion traffic over the Central Wales.

.

I have a list of the duties performed by Carmarthen outbased steam heat locos D6877, 6881, 6882, 6883, 6887, plus D6917, 6948 for the w/c 12th. February, 1967 and it makes interesting reading.

.

e.g. the 05:09 17:20 and 19:15 Milford Haven jobs were 'solid' Cl.37 power, as was the 15:10 Llanelly and the 20:45 Swansea 'Mail'

As a matter of interest, the 11:20 Green Grove 'milk' and the 09:26 Newcastle Emlyn were also booked for EE Type 3s, albeit the former was 'syspended' at the time.

.

Hymeks were drafted into West Wales about this time, to cover for the  non-heat EE Type 3s  transferred from South Wales to the NER & ScR to oust their last remaining steam.

These Hymeks found themselves working passenger turns alongside EE Type 3s, for the next couple of years, until the EE Type 3s 'fought back'

.

Canton also had a handful of steam heated EE Type 3s , with one (almost) always outbased at Radyr, where it was used on the SuO (first train of the day) Cardiff - Treherbert, which took 2-3 news vans which were dropped at Cardiff off the 00:50 ex Padd, and for good measure added a BCK as passenger accomodation.

.

The whole ensemble returned almost immediately as ECS from Treherbert to Canton, the steam heated Cl.37 then ran light back to Radyr where it stabled, and the driver signed off..

.

I recall a very spirited run behind D6885, on a Cardiff - Swindon 'Footex' in March 1972 - and the steam heating was working well.

.

Edited February 22, 2023 by br2975

[Nearholmer]

The SECR/SR type vans survived well I think because they were such a good design, robust and very simple. They actually owe a lot more in design terms to Continental goods wagons rather than UK practice, which was a bit carriage-like, and hence expensive, for many NPCS vehicles. SR and BR(S) used  the multiple variants for oodles of tasks, so there were a lot of them.

[johnofwessex]

Fascinating, thank you all

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

 I'd challenge your assumption.

.

South Wales had a batch of steam heated EE Type 3s in the D68xx series.

.

They were used regularly on West Wales passenger, sleeper, mail and parcels workings over a number of years; as well as excursion traffic over the Central Wales.

.

I have a list of the duties performed by Carmarthen outbased steam heat locos D6877, 6881, 6882, 6883, 6887, plus D6917, 6948 for the w/c 12th. February, 1967 and it makes interesting reading.

.

e.g. the 05:09 17:20 and 19:15 Milford Haven jobs were 'solid' Cl.37 power, as was the 15:10 Llanelly and the 20:45 Swansea 'Mail'

As a matter of interest, the 11:20 Green Grove 'milk' and the 09:26 Newcastle Emlyn were also booked for EE Type 3s, albeit the former was 'syspended' at the time.

.

Hymeks were drafted into West Wales about this time, to cover for the  non-heat EE Type 3s  transferred from South Wales to the NER & ScR to oust their last remaining steam.

These Hymeks found themselves working passenger turns alongside EE Type 3s, for the next couple of years, until the EE Type 3s 'fought back'

.

Canton also had a handful of steam heated EE Type 3s , with one (almost) always outbased at Radyr, where it was used on the SuO (first train of the day) Cardiff - Treherbert, which took 2-3 news vans which were dropped at Cardiff off the 00:50 ex Padd, and for good measure added a BCK as passenger accomodation.

.

The whole ensemble returned almost immediately as ECS from Treherbert to Canton, the steam heated Cl.37 then ran light back to Radyr where it stabled, and the driver signed off..

.

I recall a very spirited run behind D6885, on a Cardiff - Swindon 'Footex' in March 1972 - and the steam heating was working well.

.

 

Good point, Brian, and I should have remembered the West Wales duties having ridden up behind one of the Carmarthen outbased locos on the up Milford Haven Bristol TPO once. 

 

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The SECR/SR type vans survived well I think because they were such a good design, robust and very simple. They actually owe a lot more in design terms to Continental goods wagons rather than UK practice, which was a bit carriage-like, and hence expensive, for many NPCS vehicles. SR and BR(S) used  the multiple variants for oodles of tasks, so there were a lot of them.

 

The Southern, and BR(S), had a rather higher proportion of fast fitted goods work than elsewhere, and the distinction between fitted goods and NPCCS was more blurred, especially on the Southwestern division.  The 4-wheeled Ashford Vans fit well into this scenario, and it was not just BR(S) that used them extensively post-nationalisation; they got anywhere and everywhere, as did the other Ashford profile vans. 

 

This may have been helped to an extent by the wartime Miinstry of Supply, who were responsible for regulating the use of materials so as to prioritise the war effort, including wood.  Of course, all the big four companies wanted to continue to replace older 10ton vans throughout the war, and as Ashford works had a large supply of pre-cut planks for their '2+2' vans, originally devised to increase the use of trees by enabling smaller planks to be cut off them at the sawmill.  As this supply was of limited use for other purposes, and liable to be destroyed by the Luftwaffe, they allowed it to be used for van construction, the Ashford design vans being suppplied in large quantities to the LMS and LNER, and a good numer to the GW, as well as the Southern. 

 

I am working on a bit of an assumption here, but this same supply of wood was of course equally of use in production of the PMVs and CCTs, as well as BY and bogie PLV and van B to  the Southern design.  Production continued into BR days and 'normal' planks & plywood were used on the 10ton vans. 

 

'Ashford Profile' NPCCS was a more or less universal part of the railway scene across the nation from 1948 (they'd probably spread themselves around everywhere long before the end of this year) until the mid 70s and even into the 80s.  They are an essential element of layouts set in this period, even far away from the Southern!

[Rugd1022]

On 21/02/2023 at 13:12, Steven B said:

Maroon Mk1 CCT in 1971 sandwiched between two SR vans, complete with BR Arrows and Rail Alphabet font lettering:

(John Turner on Flickr)

 

Steven B.

 

That's a corker - if you modelled it no-one would believe it was real unless you presented them with this photo!

[montyburns56]

Hereford 1991 by Redhill Bull

 

 

[montyburns56]

Barnsley 1979 by Awwalker1

 

 

[montyburns56]

70716E Manchester Piccadilly 1974 by Hugh Searle

 

 

[Rugd1022]

Photographer unknown : D1013 'Western Ranger' between Sonning and Reading in 1976...

 

[montyburns56]

Not a very clear photo, but a rare one of a Tartan Arrow train

 

Leeds 1966 by Keith Long

 

 

[Nearholmer]

That picture really encapsulates BR trying bravely, against all odds, to throw off the shackles of its Victorian heritage.

[Rugd1022]

Reading in the mid '80s...

 

[Southernman46]

On 10/04/2023 at 15:37, Rugd1022 said:

Photographer unknown : D1013 'Western Ranger' between Sonning and Reading in 1976...

 

Just for added interest. The timber cable route in the foreground contains the SR's original 1935 vintage 33kV cables from Reading National Grid to Reading Traction substation (Feeder 231 ISTR) later renewed in 1983 with an oil-filled cable in concrete troughing and my first experience of being trackside with HST's 👍.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Southernman46
bod spolling

[Nearholmer]

I still recall that job with some, I think, fondness too. The ‘I think’ bit comes from the perishing cold night stuck on top of an embankment babysitting the cable train while we waited for the Great Western to find the loco and crew that they should have had there waiting for us. 

[Fat Controller]

On 10/04/2023 at 15:37, Rugd1022 said:

Photographer unknown : D1013 'Western Ranger' between Sonning and Reading in 1976...

 

Newspapers; the third vehicle is an ex-LMS 50' brake, transferred to the WR, and bearing  the markings 'For Use on WR Newspaper Trains Only. Return Empty to Old Oak Common' It had a  W prefix to the number, I recall.

[montyburns56]

21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

That picture really encapsulates BR trying bravely, against all odds, to throw off the shackles of its Victorian heritage.

 

But I suspect that the Victorians knew that white rolling stock and steam engines are not a good mix.