Great Gathering A4 Collection

[phil-b259]

Okay, I would like to hear from those citing the costs of A4s above the £200 mark to actually itemise their figures. Show us exactly why (with tooling already made and in existence for this particular model in Hornby's range) it would cost £200 plus. I keep reading this sound bite on here but no one has actually given us reasons as to why or a proper break down of figures.

 

Some Airfix kits and Humbrol paints are now manufactured in the UK away from their previously overseas bases and the prices have not risen by upwards of 100% or more as many people have claimed for the Hornby A4 Pacifics.

 

I'm not by any means saying the costs wouldn't rise - I am sure they would - but I am sceptical given the tooling already exists for these models that the total RRP would rise by upwards of 100% or more if they were manufactured here (given there would probably be higher levels of automation, and a hell of a lot less costs in shipping and JIT manufacturing than before).

 

Particularly the £250 quoted - where are you getting the figures for that Tom, if I may ask?

 

You are missing the point - its the assembly of the parts that costs, not the parts themselves. As you say a machine churning out say 1000 A4 bodyshells costs much the same to run regardless of whether it is in the UK or India or China. What machines cannot do is attach the nice metal handrails everybody wants or put together the valve gear, etc - for that you need skilled labour and that labour costs. Wage rates in the far east are a fraction of what the UK is and therefore until you can get a robot capable of replicating a skilled and dexterous human capable of assembling lots of small parts then mainstream model railway manufacturing will NEVER be affordable in the UK.

 

And this doesn't just apply to models, - why do you think i-phones are made in China? Yes the circuit boards are mass produced by machine (which could in theory be anywhere in the world for much the same cost) but final assembly is done by people and is therefore far too expensive to do in America or Europe.

 

Any comparison with the likes of Humbrol or Airfix is a complete load of nonsense too because neither of these require assembly before shipping. With paints a machine is quite capable of filling pots / cans by itself plus sorting and putting them into the appropriate packaging for dispatch to retailers with the absolute minimum of human involvement. Airfix is similar - especially their Lego clones - minimal human input required, therefore from a finance point of view it is perfectly acceptable to put the machines in the UK.

 

At the end of the day what people in the UK, including modellers have to comprehend is if you want UK produced items requiring assembly then (1) You will have to accept their price rises 10 fold and (2) The UK - if not the world has to regress about 50 years where Globalisation didn't exist and trade tariffs were such that cheaper items made overseas were just as expensive as home produced items.

 

Just face facts the days when the UK could be a volume manufacturer of labour intensive (to make) items, are over for good (which includes models) . What the UK can manufacture in volume is are things that have a high degree of automation in their assembly (e.g. Nissan Cars).

[S.A.C Martin]

You are missing the point - its the assembly of the parts that costs, not the parts themselves. As you say a machine churning out say 1000 A4 bodyshells costs much the same to run regardless of whether it is in the UK or India or China. What machines cannot do is attach the nice metal handrails everybody wants or put together the valve gear, etc - for that you need skilled labour and that labour costs. Wage rates in the far east are a fraction of what the UK is and therefore until you can get a robot capable of replicating a skilled and dexterous human capable of assembling lots of small parts then mainstream model railway manufacturing will NEVER be affordable in the UK.

 

And this doesn't just apply to models, - why do you think i-phones are made in China? Yes the circuit boards are mass produced by machine (which could in theory be anywhere in the world for much the same cost) but final assembly is done by people and is therefore far too expensive to do in America or Europe.

 

Any comparison with the likes of Humbrol or Airfix is a complete load of nonsense too because neither of these require assembly before shipping. With paints a machine is quite capable of filling pots / cans by itself plus sorting and putting them into the appropriate packaging for dispatch to retailers with the absolute minimum of human involvement. Airfix is similar - especially their Lego clones - minimal human input required, therefore from a finance point of view it is perfectly acceptable to put the machines in the UK.

 

At the end of the day what people in the UK, including modellers have to comprehend is if you want UK produced items requiring assembly then (1) You will have to accept their price rises 10 fold and (2) The UK - if not the world has to regress about 50 years where Globalisation didn't exist and trade tariffs were such that cheaper items made overseas were just as expensive as home produced items.

 

Just face facts the days when the UK could be a volume manufacturer of labour intensive (to make) items, are over for good (which includes models) . What the UK can manufacture in volume is are things that have a high degree of automation in their assembly (e.g. Nissan Cars).

 

Phil, happy to take your point of view on this one, and agree that labour is the biggest cost here.

 

However - a caveat and a question - if future Hornby models are regressing to more simple body shells and chassis design (ala design clever), will a larger and less paid skilled labour force become a moot point in favour of a smaller, higher paid one that can churn out more models more quickly because they are designed to be simpler to put together in the first place?

 

If we compare the Duke to the Gresley B17 which preceded it, almost anyone could put the Duke together and with practice I am sure any of us could. The B17? Lord knows I'm not dextrous enough to put together some of its components. Granted, for older models still in the catalogue you will have to find a particularly skilled workforce somewhere.

[Les1952]

Yet if you look at consumer electronics-  mainly radios, TVs etc but including MP3 players and phones-quite a number of the "low end" items ARE made in the UK.  These are just as well made and reliable as the Apples, Zanussis, Samsungs of this world but much cheaper as you are not paying for the flashy case and brand name.  They do tend to be mostly robot assembled.

 

Not a new phenomenon building low end stuff in the UK.  Many years ago I had a Saisho radio- made in Liverpool.  When i asked why it had a Japanese name I was told people wouldn't buy it if they thought it was made in England.  It did well over 25 years of service.

 

We may be some way off assembling steamers by robot, but locating and cleaning flash from a moulding is already done.  Apart from the cost of buying the equipment there is no technical reason why Hornby couldn't return track and wagons to the UK already.  Perhaps once there is some money in the kitty to buy the machines to do it?

 

All the very best

Les

[GraemeWatson]

Here's an interesting point.

To produce an A4 in the manner of those made by Hornby in 1938, would probably cost the consumer today, the equivalent in value now!

You will note chaps, that in 1938 it was possible to have the valance aluminium lining and tender aluminium lining "alligned"!

 

[Andybish]

Still no sign of the display cabinet from Picture Pride!How much longer I wonder?

[Dunsignalling]

Here's an interesting point.

To produce an A4 in the manner of those made by Hornby in 1938, would probably cost the consumer today, the equivalent in value now!

You will note chaps, that in 1938 it was possible to have the valance aluminium lining and tender aluminium lining "alligned"!

 

I have no idea what a Dublo A4 cost in 1938 but I managed to find enough data to do a comparison using "Barnstaple", their final new loco, introduced in 1961. 

 

That was priced at £5-19-6 back then (which stubbornly remained out of my reach!)

 

Adjusting for RPI inflation between 1961 and 2014, I came up with £112.00.

 

John

[Robin Brasher]

The Hornby-Dublo A4 was its cheapest Pacific Locomotive. I don't know what it cost in 1938. In 1949 it did not have valences, it cost 52s 6d for the locomotive and another 7s 6d for the tender. I have got A4s produced by Hornby-Dublo, Wrenn, Bachmann, Hornby tender drive and now locomotive drive. I would like to compare their performances and find out which is the best value for money. When I ran Bittern last Friday on the club layout one of the new Hornby teak coaches kept on derailing although the track was very well laid and I had to take the train off the track. All the locomotives are good runners but I think the Hornby-Dublo and Wrenn versions are more robust and will pull more coaches. Hornby-Dublo also made a clockwork A4 in 1938.

[Steffi_C]

The Hornby-Dublo A4 was its cheapest Pacific Locomotive. I don't know what it cost in 1938.  Hornby-Dublo also made a clockwork A4 in 1938.

In 1938 the Hornby Dublo A4 cost 23/- (clockwork) and 29/6 (electric).  The tender was included in the price.  Without the tender the prices were 18/6 and 25/- respectively, with the tender costing 4/6.

 

It's more meaningful to compare the prices with the average weekly wage at the time, £3.9s was the average industrial wage for an adult male in 1938.

 

If we take Hornby's current A4 as selling at Hornby's quoted price for the keenly anticipated Great Snipe at £144.99, we'd need to have a weekly wage of £339.13 if it were to represent the same value.  The most recent figures available are for November last year, and (excluding bonuses) the average weekly wage was £447 (bonuses would add another £28 to that figure).  That would require a price today of £191.11 to represent equivalent value.

 

This doesn't take account of the fact that in 1938 a 48 hour working week was still the norm, so the hourly rate was 1/5.  In 1938 you'd need to work just over 20½ hours to pay for the loco.  In 2014 the working week is considerably shorter, commonly 40 hours which gives an hourly rate of £11.17.  To buy Great Snipe, if it ever arrives, you'd need to work just under 13 hours.

[G-BOAF]

Great Goodbye is creeping in to May according to Model Railways Direct. They are clearly not sitting in a warehouse in Margate somewhere.

[60800]

Etched plates arrived today, just need to either repaint the wheels or find a colour match to deal with the tyres. Looking at the letter sizing and placement of the top lamp iron, I have decided not to alter / replace them. Modified twin cylinder cock pipes are fitted and the detail painting has been completed;

 

[GraemeWatson]

Etched plates arrived today, just need to either repaint the wheels or find a colour match to deal with the tyres. Looking at the letter sizing and placement of the top lamp iron, I have decided not to alter / replace them. Modified twin cylinder cock pipes are fitted and the detail painting has been completed;

Very nice. I see yoiu have elected to silver the coupling and drawbar as per prototype!

[Fenman]

Okay, I would like to hear from those citing the costs of A4s above the £200 mark to actually itemise their figures. Show us exactly why (with tooling already made and in existence for this particular model in Hornby's range) it would cost £200 plus. I keep reading this sound bite on here but no one has actually given us reasons as to why or a proper break down of figures.

 

Some Airfix kits and Humbrol paints are now manufactured in the UK away from their previously overseas bases and the prices have not risen by upwards of 100% or more as many people have claimed for the Hornby A4 Pacifics. ...

 

Lots of us have given the reasons for these sort of figures on the thread Made in UK vs Made in China

 

The amount of skilled assembly worker time required to produce a pot of paint will be substantially less than the time needed to assemble an A4, even a "design clever" one.

 

Paul

[w4rrn]

Hornby charity auction Set No 2

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Direct-From-Hornby-The-Great-Gathering-Collection-Ltd-Ed-002-Charity-Auction-/171241259461

[Andybish]

Still no sign of the display cabinet from Picture Pride!How much longer I wonder?

....almost another week on and still no sign of the cabinet. Contacted Hornby who just gave me Picture Pride Cabinets phone number and advised that I call them myself. Having paid £1,000 to Hornby for the set I would have expected a little better customer care than that. When are they going to take an interest on behalf of their customers I wonder?

[w4rrn]

A few weeks ago I called picture pride displays to enquire about buying a cabinet myself as I have x5 GG models, the 6th one I have is a TMC UOSA.

They are £119 (Cant remember if that included delivery or not)

They can even put the Great gathering logo at the bottom, so there's exclusivity for people who have genuinly bought all six GG models?!?

 

http://www.picture-pride-displays.co.uk/product/4878/gg284s70-the-great-gathering

[Signalman88]

Whilst searching for Bachmann A4s on eBay I came across this Great Gathering Bachmann boxset of 6 A4s.  Expensive yes, but surely a good investment piece due to the limited number produced.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachmann-NRM-Exclusive-A4-Box-set-Limited-Edition-5-25-Mallard-Gathering-Goodbye-/331130460021?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item4d18e9d775

[w4rrn]

Well a good investment for the bloke selling them..

 

£1000 mark up on the original selling price in just under 4 months since release.

Silly money, who in the right mind would pay that!!

[Hilux5972]

Hornby are asking £2100 for their collection

[Signalman88]

Hornby are asking £2100 for their collection

 

I didn't realise there were any Hornby sets still available.  £2100 makes the Bachmann set seem about the right price.

[Steffi_C]

Hornby are asking £2100 for their collection

That's very misleading.  They're auctioning set # 2 for charity and the bidding opened at £1000..

[Hilux5972]

Sorry I didn't realise it was an auction. I thought that was a buy now price.

[Steffi_C]

I'm also interested to know whether anyone here has actually received the 'free' cabinet for the full collection yet.

 

The company originally scheduled to make these, 'Picture Pride Displays Limited', was liquidated 26th July last year, and another company 'Handbourn Cabinets Limited' are now trading as 'Picture Pride Displays', under the same directors.  Quite where this left Hornby and their arrangement to buy the cases is unclear.  None of this is mentioned on the Picture Pride website.

[Ian Hargrave]

They were trading "in the flesh" at Doncaster a couple of weeks ago.....with the usual personnel.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm also interested to know whether anyone here has actually received the 'free' cabinet for the full collection yet.

 

The company originally scheduled to make these, 'Picture Pride Displays Limited', was liquidated 26th July last year, and another company 'Handbourn Cabinets Limited' are now trading as 'Picture Pride Displays', under the same directors.  Quite where this left Hornby and their arrangement to buy the cases is unclear.  None of this is mentioned on the Picture Pride website.

I doubt that it effectively has made any difference - as Ian has already posted Picture Pride have continued with show appearances and in any case a spot of research back at the time of their liquidation showed that basically the original company was little more than a name and separate set of books working out of the same premises as Handbourn's - they seemingly being the original parent company and the concern which actually made the cabinets.

[Steffi_C]

I doubt that it effectively has made any difference - as Ian has already posted Picture Pride have continued with show appearances and in any case a spot of research back at the time of their liquidation showed that basically the original company was little more than a name and separate set of books working out of the same premises as Handbourn's - they seemingly being the original parent company and the concern which actually made the cabinets.

So have people received their cabinets?