Level crossing stupidity...

[BoD]

Though I'm sorry for the motorist and their family I am very glad that no one on the train, especially the driver was injured.

 

Jamie

 

..... perhaps not physically.

Sad all round.

[PhilJ W]

The same one where someone else was hit a couple of years back, according to the BBC report. Expect NR to have it high on the closure list after this second incident.

If there is an alternative, on the A13 between Pitsea and Vange there is an occupational crossing connecting a farm to the road, the scene of at least two fatal accidents. Since the last accident it has been fitted with AHB's though.

[highpeakman]

Edit: Deleted as not relevant to thread.

Edited February 9, 2017 by highpeakman

[DCB]

The occupation crossing at Frampton Mansell on the climb to Sapperton Tunnel on the Gloucester Swindon line had a fatality this week when a

Land over was hit by an HST. The Police seem to have closed the line for over 24 hours trying to work out what happened. The cause could

not really have been more obvious but I suppose they had nothing better to do. Vehicle operators are supposed to get permission to cross.

I don't think there are any signals protecting it so what on earth people were trying to establish is completely beyond me. Luckily the train

was an HST as a Sprinter might have derailed and Frampton Viaduct is not the ideal place a derailed train to plunge down an embankment

 

I hope the guard went forward and put down detonators as the up line was fouled.

This is the second serious incident on this line this year

a boulder fell from a cutting side and blocked the Up line, fortunately the first train was a Down train or there could have been quite a

death toll. Again I hope the guard put down detonators as Idon't think there are any signalman controlled signals between Swindon and Kemble

and Kemble and Standish Jct

[4630]

The Police seem to have closed the line for over 24 hours trying to work out what happened. The cause could

not really have been more obvious but I suppose they had nothing better to do. Vehicle operators are supposed to get permission to cross.

 

 

My bold in your original post.

 

You know that as a fact do you?

 

No, I thought not.  Best keep quiet I think, until all the relevant facts are in the public domain from official sources rather than just rely on supposition and rumour.

 

Some expression of condolences from you for those involved in and in the aftermath of this event wouldn't go amiss either.

[roythebus]

The occupation crossing at Frampton Mansell on the climb to Sapperton Tunnel on the Gloucester Swindon line had a fatality this week when a

Land over was hit by an HST. The Police seem to have closed the line for over 24 hours trying to work out what happened. The cause could

not really have been more obvious but I suppose they had nothing better to do. Vehicle operators are supposed to get permission to cross.

I don't think there are any signals protecting it so what on earth people were trying to establish is completely beyond me. Luckily the train

was an HST as a Sprinter might have derailed and Frampton Viaduct is not the ideal place a derailed train to plunge down an embankment

 

I hope the guard went forward and put down detonators as the up line was fouled.

This is the second serious incident on this line this year

a boulder fell from a cutting side and blocked the Up line, fortunately the first train was a Down train or there could have been quite a

death toll. Again I hope the guard put down detonators as Idon't think there are any signalman controlled signals between Swindon and Kemble

and Kemble and Standish Jct

 

They're doing away with detonator protection in the very near future, even on heritage railways.

[DCB]

My bold in your original post.

 

You know that as a fact do you?

 

No, I thought not.  Best keep quiet I think, until all the relevant facts are in the public domain from official sources rather than just rely on supposition and rumour.

 

Some expression of condolences from you for those involved in and in the aftermath of this event wouldn't go amiss either.

Land Rover stopped across track at an unmanned level crossing where you ring the signalman for permission to cross. One I know well which is

a popular photographic location. What can possibly be be discovered? Except the uncomfortable truth that there were no deaths on the train

due to an HST power car on the front. Without that extra weight on the leading axle it could so easily have been another Selby.

[PaulRhB]

Unfortunately you aren't quoting the facts, they are still being investigated. Your post is speculation and opinion.

I can't say any more as it's still ongoing and there will be official sources for the real info.

The comment about Selby is also inaccurate as sadly demonstrated in another incident at Ufton. It was the combination of obstruction and nearby point in both cases that contributed.

Edited February 12, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Colin_McLeod]

Thanks Paul. I thought for a moment that I had stumbled onto Facebook mistake there.

[The Stationmaster]

They're doing away with detonator protection in the very near future, even on heritage railways.

 

Slightly OT but I did away with it on one heritage railway several years ago when I rewrote their Rule Book as detonators served no purpose that I could see but managed to add managerial problems and responsibilities plus security headaches.

 

On NR it would make sense to dispense with it where there is adequate Shore-to-cab radio coverage but it would be a bit daft on double lines where such coverage is not reliable as it would introduce additional risk.  Presumably the introduction of GSM radio is creating the necessary radio security on all lines where it's needed?

 

And yes - as yet we do not know the details of the Frampton Crossing collision although it might be worth pointing out that although the crossing is indeed near Frampton Mansell it is actually called 'Frampton Crossing' specifically in order to distinguish it from, er, 'Frampton Mansell Crossing' (which is a pedestrian crossing). 

 

Edit to correct typo

Edited February 12, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[PaulRhB]

On NR it would make sense to dispense with it where there is adequate Shore-to-can radio coverage but it would be a bit daft on double lines where such coverage is not reliable as it would introduce additional risk. Presumably the introduction of GSM radio is creating the necessary radio security on all lines where it's needed?

 

GSMR still isn't 100% so dets still have a place especially when machinery is nearby as it's easy not to hear the call or it may not connect. Dets have the advantage that they tell the driver and anyone nearby so they've been a lifesaver in several cases still. Edited February 12, 2017 by PaulRhB

[uax6]

Also GSM-R is not a fool proof system. There are many areas (mostly the 'dingy-dongy railway' (AB)) where train describers are not in use. In these areas GSM-R does NOT necessarily contact the correct controlling signaller.

 

GSM-R is also not as flexible as the old CSR, in as much as it seems difficult for the system (where train describers are in use) to allow you to speak to a headcode after it has passed your last controlled signal, which, if you protect level crossings with that signal, may be the difference between life and death....

 

Its also got the least ergonomically designed handset in the world, which makes it difficult to hold and press the speak button at the same time.....

 

When you add in personnel putting out blocks who seem to have very little clue about how to read sectional appendix's, then I sincerely hope that dets remain in use for as long as possible.

 

 

Andy G

Edited February 12, 2017 by uax6

[BoD]

Land Rover stopped across track at an unmanned level crossing where you ring the signalman for permission to cross. One I know well which isa popular photographic location. What can possibly be be discovered? Except the uncomfortable truth that there were no deaths on the traindue to an HST power car on the front. Without that extra weight on the leading axle it could so easily have been another Selby.

Why is the the fact that there were no deaths on the train an uncomfortable truth?

[Ken.W]

Also GSM-R is not a fool proof system. There are many areas (mostly the 'dingy-dongy railway' (AB)) where train describers are not in use. In these areas GSM-R does NOT necessarily contact the correct controlling signaller.

I'd be very concerned if dets were being done away with altogether, though they have been partially as they're no longer necessary if 'you have immediate communication with the signaler who can assure you that protection's being provided by fixed signals'

 

It's not just the 'dingy-dongy railway' as you put either, or where train describers aren't used.

There's often short gaps in reception, particularly where between box / panel areas, only short but if the gaps take several seconds at 125 that's a long enough gap for a train to come to a stand in and then not have reception to broadcast a message.

I've also experienced being stopped at Edinburgh's second last signal and talking to Tweedmouth, and even heard about trains in Kings X connecting to Kentish Town (MML)!

There's also several signals in the Sandy area plated with the box's number in order to call the right one

 

I also understand trains are now to be allowed to complete their journey with a failed GSMR set (this was supposed to constitute a train failure)

[Ken.W]

 The Police seem to have closed the line for over 24 hours trying to work out what happened. The cause could

not really have been more obvious but I suppose they had nothing better to do. Vehicle operators are supposed to get permission to cross.

I don't think there are any signals protecting it so what on earth people were trying to establish is completely beyond me.

I hope the guard went forward and put down detonators as the up line was fouled.

Well, if you're making presumptions like that, then I presume from your tone you'd rather that, to save a few hours delay, railway incidents were handled in a similar way to Road Traffic "Accidents", ie swept up and carry on as normal. The disparity in casualty figures between rail and road should tell you something about the folly of that approach.

 

Also, btw, the Guard does not go forward to put detonators down, the Driver does that and the Guard goes back to protect the rear of his train and any parallel lines in the same direction or if not requiring to do this remains with the train to look after the safety and well-being of his passengers

[The Johnster]

Well, if you're making presumptions like that, then I presume from your tone you'd rather that, to save a few hours delay, railway incidents were handled in a similar way to Road Traffic "Accidents", ie swept up and carry on as normal. The disparity in casualty figures between rail and road should tell you something about the folly of that approach.

 

Also, btw, the Guard does not go forward to put detonators down, the Driver does that and the Guard goes back to protect the rear of his train and any parallel lines in the same direction or if not requiring to do this remains with the train to look after the safety and well-being of his passengers

 

Driver and guard in my day also deployed track circuit clips; are these no longer used?

[david.hill64]

Driver and guard in my day also deployed track circuit clips; are these no longer used?

The move to axle counters makes track circuit clips useless, so if they are still in use their life is limited.

[ejstubbs]

Well, if you're making presumptions like that, then I presume from your tone you'd rather that, to save a few hours delay, railway incidents were handled in a similar way to Road Traffic "Accidents", ie swept up and carry on as normal.

 

 

Actually, the police do tend to take quite a bit of care in recording and collecting evidence at the scene of fatal and serious injury road collisions.

 

http://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/road-policing-2/investigating-road-deaths/

http://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/police-explain-need-close-roads-accidents/story-16632264-detail/story.html

 

Police are deploying new technology to try to make the process quicker:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14092232

 

I'm sure such initiatives go a long way to soothe the tantrums of impatient, entitled, insensitive charmers like the good citizen who started this thread on pepipoo ("WHY does it take the police here forever and a day to clear a relatively minor but fatal accident" - nice - "s**t happens, clear up and get on with life. My condolences go out to his family and friends." - breathtaking) and that well-known champion of the rights of all mankind, the ABD.

[Richard E]

I'm sure such initiatives go a long way to soothe the tantrums of impatient, entitled, insensitive charmers like the good citizen who started this thread on pepipoo ("WHY does it take the police here forever and a day to clear a relatively minor but fatal accident" - nice - "s**t happens, clear up and get on with life. My condolences go out to his family and friends." - breathtaking) and that well-known champion of the rights of all mankind, the ABD.

Funnily enough the OP on that thread is also a member of this forum and I believe well respected at that.

[beast66606]

Funnily enough the OP on that thread is also a member of this forum and I believe well respected at that.

 

Let's just say I've blocked myself from the driving standards thread because some of those in it obviously have very different standards to myself.

[The Stationmaster]

The move to axle counters makes track circuit clips useless, so if they are still in use their life is limited.

 

Yes, it's a strange turnaround when you think about it in that the use of axle counters effectively becomes a stronger argument for retaining use of detonators (ignoring the use of GSM-R).

 

And we were perhaps getting ahead of the race when in 1985 we decided to ban the use of TC clips in the Severn Tunnel having reached the conclusion (aided by practical experience) that they were a greater hazard to use than not use (people could be tripped by them) and they didn't do anything anyway because the track circuits had been replaced by axle counters.

[The Johnster]

 Track circuit clips on the way out, then.  In my entire railway career I never had to use them, fortunately, but was re-assured by their presence.  They are a bit of a last ditch panic attempt to protect a blocked line, as is running towards the oncoming traffic (we were told to never run on our training course as it increases the chance of injuring yourself and panics the passengers, unless the opposite line was blocked, when you ran for all your worth), but these are situations in which seconds, and your speed of reaction, count and they were better than nothing!

[david.hill64]

Yes, it's a strange turnaround when you think about it in that the use of axle counters effectively becomes a stronger argument for retaining use of detonators (ignoring the use of GSM-R).

 For ETCS though GSM will have to guarantee 100% coverage so will presumably form the basis of invoking protection arrangements when required.

[kevinlms]

You don't get much closer than this. Sorry its not at a level crossing, so off topic.

 

http://www.juneesoutherncross.com.au/story/4469710/biker-narrowly-escapes-speeding-train/?cs=2452

 

Edited to add missing word.

Edited February 15, 2017 by kevinlms

[SHMD]

Mr D. Head is recorded in Birmingham weaving through the gates at the last possible second...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-38980125

 

 

Kev.