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Level crossing stupidity...

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Coryton

Coryton

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Do axle counters know which way the train is travelling as it counts the axles?  I assume they must do, otherwise two identical trains (eg two 3-car multiple units) entering at opposite ends of a section at different times might look to the signalling system like one train traversing the section, and it would think the section was unoccupied when in fact there would be two trains in it  :O (which of course shouldn't happen anyway, but if it did I imagine it would be useful to know about it rather than blithely allow yet another train to run into the section and pile in to the wreckage of the first two...hmm, cheery thoughts for a Wednesday afternoon)

 

Well I don't think a single track circuit would be able to tell if another train entered an occupied section.

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phil-b259

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Do axle counters know which way the train is travelling as it counts the axles?  I assume they must do, otherwise two identical trains (eg two 3-car multiple units) entering at opposite ends of a section at different times might look to the signalling system like one train traversing the section, and it would think the section was unoccupied when in fact there would be two trains in it  :O (which of course shouldn't happen anyway, but if it did I imagine it would be useful to know about it rather than blithely allow yet another train to run into the section and pile in to the wreckage of the first two...hmm, cheery thoughts for a Wednesday afternoon)

 

An axle counter section is fairly simple to understand. At ALL entry / exit points there are two heads - which count wheels (not axles) in by the wheel altering a magnetic field in a very precise way. Just as with a track circuit, you can have say 2x 156 units enter the section (total 16 wheels) and 8 leave one way past one set of heads with the other 8 leaving past another set. Until ALL wheels have been successfully counted out the system will continue to treat the section as occupied.

 

The problem in Cardiff was that because the relevant point ends were to be removed and replaced with plain line no axle counter heads were fitted to the diverging route thus potentially causing a train to 'disappear' from the system

 

Incidentally a minus count is not permitted state. If a p-way trolley for example is put on the line mid section and pushed past an axle counter head, then the section it has just left will end up with a minus figure (say -2) or a partial count (because the trolleys wheels are not the same profile as those fitted to trains and thus the magnetic field has not been altered as the sensor expects). In such cases the section will revert to 'occupied' and a signallers reset to 'clear' is needed followed by the next train having to be cautioned through the section at caution as the signal in rear will be held at red (even with a sucessfull reset).

Edited by phil-b259
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Richard E

Richard E

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I see reference to the emergency services using grid refs - well, from personal experience Norfolk police haven't done so for at least 10 years, they use Sat Nav via post code or road names. When I last submitted a road rally route to them they were completely confused by the use of an Ordnance Survey map and asked for the route by road name and direction of turn at each junction ...

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Fat Controller

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I see reference to the emergency services using grid refs - well, from personal experience Norfolk police haven't done so for at least 10 years, they use Sat Nav via post code or road names. When I last submitted a road rally route to them they were completely confused by the use of an Ordnance Survey map and asked for the route by road name and direction of turn at each junction ...

Kent Ambulance Service ask for a post-code, which is no use if you're in the middle of nowhere. Calais ones aren't much better, as a colleague found when calling in an RTA on the A16. Apparently giving the motorway name, direction of accident and the 'chainage' (posted at 100 m intervals on the central barriers) wasn't sufficient. It would have been enough to call up air-support.

Edited by Fat Controller
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jcm@gwr

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There's also this option for location identification now, specifically designed for places which don't have an address identifying them. http://what3words.com/

 

Just out of interest I put in my own address, it took me to the other side of the crescent!

I had to drag the map across (quite a way) before I could work which squares were then

applicable to my property.

To be fair, it does seem to be a good idea, but I would have thought a 10m square would

have been adequate, my house is covered by at least 3 of their squares (3m x 3m), that's

not including any of the garden!

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david.hill64

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Do axle counters know which way the train is travelling as it counts the axles?  I assume they must do, otherwise two identical trains (eg two 3-car multiple units) entering at opposite ends of a section at different times might look to the signalling system like one train traversing the section, and it would think the section was unoccupied when in fact there would be two trains in it  :O (which of course shouldn't happen anyway, but if it did I imagine it would be useful to know about it rather than blithely allow yet another train to run into the section and pile in to the wreckage of the first two...hmm, cheery thoughts for a Wednesday afternoon)

Yes they do. That is how they can work when installed on dead-end lines such as stabling sidings where more than one train can be stabled at once. The axle counters will let the interlocking know if (for example) the 12 axles that it has just counted are the previously stabled train leaving or the next train coming in. Plus your example of course!

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Guest

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This is all fascinating stuff, for sure, but it's been quite a while since anyone posted a YouTube video of an idiot. Have road users in the vicinity of level crossings started to behave themselves or have we just wandered a wee bit OT?

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ejstubbs

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Yes they do. That is how they can work when installed on dead-end lines such as stabling sidings where more than one train can be stabled at once. The axle counters will let the interlocking know if (for example) the 12 axles that it has just counted are the previously stabled train leaving or the next train coming in.

 

Good example, thanks for explaining!

 

Now, back on topic...

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Coryton

Coryton

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This is all fascinating stuff, for sure, but it's been quite a while since anyone posted a YouTube video of an idiot. Have road users in the vicinity of level crossings started to behave themselves or have we just wandered a wee bit OT?

 

Well it's keeping me amused while we wait for the next video to roll in. 

 

Anyway the two recent ones showing trains passing with raised barriers weren't showing stupidity among road users but stupidity may have been involved somewhere on the railway side of things.

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Dagworth

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User worked crossing

 

http://www.24liveblog.com/show?img=//cdn5.24live.co/images/2017/02/08/1486487984749730.jpg

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PaulRhB

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Anyway the two recent ones showing trains passing with raised barriers weren't showing stupidity among road users but stupidity may have been involved somewhere on the railway side of things.

Having not seen the crossing video in question, is it an ahb and were the lights working? Movements are only prohibited if the lights aren't working AND the barriers are up. Trains are run under caution but can run as long as you can ascertain that one or the other minimum is working.

See reg 3.6 here

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERM8000-master-module%20Iss%201.pdf#page848

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Mark_A

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I'm embarrassed to say that though I was on foot, a train's surprised me on that crossing. Up trains are noisy as they climb, sightlines from the crossing are very short, and the sound from the 158 climbing the bank masked the sound (and sight) of the second 158 dropping down from the summit. It's really easy to not consider that there may be a second train, fortunately I looked for it, albeit rather late in the day. Lesson for me and perhaps for everyone.

 

Mark

 

Mark

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Grovenor

Grovenor

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Having not seen the crossing video in question, is it an ahb and were the lights working? Movements are only prohibited if the lights aren't working AND the barriers are up. Trains are run under caution but can run as long as you can ascertain that one or the other minimum is working.

See reg 3.6 here

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERM8000-master-module%20Iss%201.pdf#page848

Paul, You can see them by looking back in the thread, the first one here, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69585-level-crossing-stupidity/page-70&do=findComment&comment=2594736

and the second here  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69585-level-crossing-stupidity/page-71&do=findComment&comment=2596510

Then you would realise that the RSSB has no jurisdiction in those rather appalling cases.

Regards

Edited by Grovenor
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PaulRhB

PaulRhB

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Paul, You can see them by looking back in the thread, the first one here, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69585-level-crossing-stupidity/page-70&do=findComment&comment=2594736

and the second here

Then you would realise that the RSSB has no jurisdiction in those rather appalling cases.

Regards

I see but the context wasn't apparent from the post ;) It's worth sharing the info though for the UK as we do get 'experts' saying 'you can't do that' and you have to point out that either the boom or the flashing lights means stop. We provide two stop messages and phones and still people weave round ahb's because they can't be bothered to get out of their cars and ask.

The more people who know, there's a hope they will educate someone and save lives on both sides of the lineside fence.

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Coryton

Coryton

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either the boom or the flashing lights means stop. We provide two stop messages and phones and still people weave round ahb's because they can't be bothered to get out of their cars and ask.

The more people who know, there's a hope they will educate someone and save lives on both sides of the lineside fence.

 

Interesting.

 

From the Highway Code on-line:

  • You MUST always obey the flashing red stop lights.
  • You MUST stop behind the white line across the road.
  • Keep going if you have already crossed the white line when the amber light comes on.
  • Do not reverse onto or over a controlled crossing.
  • You MUST wait if a train goes by and the red lights continue to flash. This means another train will be passing soon.
  • Only cross when the lights go off and barriers open.
  • Never zig-zag around half-barriers, they lower automatically because a train is approaching.

This doesn't seem to be putting the barriers being down on the same footing as red lights flashing (where you "MUST" stop, i.e. it's the law).

 

Though common sense ought to suggest that if the barriers are down and the lights are off something is wrong and it might not be a good idea to just assume a train isn't coming.

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PaulRhB

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Correct there is a difference, the Booms mean stop do not pass without permission, (plus the red boom lights must be extinguished), flashing red lights are absolute stop that even a police officer can't let you past. If anyone ever tries to talk you by flashing red lights they certainly aren't doing it with the Signalmans permission and you should use the crossing phone to report it as they may not be aware.

If the lights get stuck on the S&T have to turn them off before traffic can be allowed over, the crossing attendant at a failure or police can't.

The problem is many stop but then go by both without bothering to use the bright yellow phone purely because of impatience.

The booms should be raised if an attendant is there, by hand if necessary.

Edited by PaulRhB
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