SECR Birdcage Coaches

[roythebus]

Prototype for everything, for a couple of days last week (26-28 August 2016) the K&ESR ran their 2 car DMU with the Birdcage brake as a tail load. This was due to high fire risk and the DMU didn't have the seating capacity of their Victorian set of four-wheelers.

[Jenny Emily]

I'm still looking forward to these. My savings account has reached nearly £3500 due to setting up a direct debit of £50 per week. I cannot recommend this approach more highly, though other competing projects such as a new porch and getting a classic car back on the road are jockeying for a share of the funds.

[JSpencer]

I wonder if Bachmann is considering another Wainwright of some description. Imagine the excitement if one came out at more-or-less the same time as these coaches.

 

Hmm, all exclusive D class with the NRM. They only need to tool up the loco part (tender is the same as the C class).

 

Would fit into the hidden time frame for the next NRM release for sure.

[JSpencer]

It would be nice - but given the current focus on clearing the backlog then I would be surprised if it happened.

 

In the longer term though I would imagine a H tank is an obvious goal for Bachmann - particularly as Hornby's Southern railway based models have all been primarily western section stuff and thus there is less risk of duplication (the M7 and Adams radial fitting the small tank engine slots for example)

 

There is some truth when referring to steam engines, less so on the EMU front.

 

Oddly in the late 1990's, there was rumors flying around the trade that Bachmann's next southern engine (after the N class) would be an O2 then later a Q1 (which as Hornby's arrived shortly after, would have been dropped if true).

Today there are small hints of Hornby doing a H-class. In the engine shed, they said - prior to the profit warning - 'here is a photo of part of the cab roof of a tank engine which we will announce soon'. And many have speculated since that it was a H class. Watch this space (well that space on the other forum).

In the meanwhile, there is also the Hornby SECR terrier due soon.

 

We still have quite a few modern SECR coloured engines to pull these:

3 - C class

1- N class

 

But lack that pure Wainwright passenger engine though.

[Wickham Green]

Hmm, all exclusive D class with the NRM. They only need to tool up the loco part (tender is the same as the C class).

 

Would fit into the hidden time frame for the next NRM release for sure.

Just to be pedantic in case Bachmann ARE listening that's "VIRTUALLY the same"  -  the rear handrails are different ! ........ and they'd need side raves for S.R. / B.R. period.

[Edwardian]

Hmm, all exclusive D class with the NRM. They only need to tool up the loco part (tender is the same as the C class).

 

Would fit into the hidden time frame for the next NRM release for sure.

 

Question, would an "as preserved" D Class only be accurate for a model of the NRM, and BR and Grouping liveried standard range models?

 

If one in the Full Wainright could accurately represent the class in service during the Pre-Grouping years, that would be a different matter.  otherwise, it wouldn't go with the coaches.

 

What irony.  For years no coaches with which to run most engines, soon to be followed by RTR pre-Grouping coaches with no loco to pull 'em!  What are the chances of a C Class 0-6-0 working these fairly new and modern SECR coaches on the eve of the Great War with any regularity?  Low, I would have thought, but happy to be corrected.

 

I am a bit bored of accurate models of inaccurately preserved locos.  Unless you model a freelance preserved line set in a parallel universe in which everything has a current boiler certificate, I think these "as preserved" jobs are the wrong way to go, fit for Collectors and Runners.  Many could be the basis of conversions, but they simply join a long queue of projects in my case.  Given someone has gone to the considerable effort of producing a model, its a pity when sufficient tooling or livery options are not considered important enough.  I am sure not all such options would be "uneconomic" in all cases claimed.  It is getting to be an over used and under justified excuse, one suspects, because it can and has been done in certain cases. 

 

Any how, I am very much looking forward to their release; it would mean a couple fewer rakes to try to build.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Edwardian

[Wickham Green]

Question, would an "as preserved" D Class only be accurate for a model of the NRM, and BR and Grouping liveried standard range models?

 

If one in the Full Wainright could accurately represent the class in service during the Pre-Grouping years, that would be a different matter.  otherwise, it wouldn't go with the coaches.

 

What irony.  For years no coaches with which to run most engines, soon to be followed by RTR pre-Grouping coaches with no loco to pull 'em!  What are the chances of a C Class 0-6-0 working these fairly new and modern SECR coaches on the eve of the Great War with any regularity?  Low, I would have thought, but happy to be corrected.

 

I am a bit bored of accurate models of inaccurately preserved locos.  Unless you model a freelance preserved line set in a parallel universe in which everything has a current boiler certificate, I think these "as preserved" jobs are the wrong way to go, fit for Collectors and Runners.  Many could be the basis of conversions, but they simply join a long queue of projects in my case.  Given someone has gone to the considerable effort of producing a model, its a pity when sufficient tooling or livery options are not considered important enough.  I am sure not all such options would be "uneconomic" in all cases claimed.  It is getting to be an over used and under justified excuse, one suspects, because it can and has been done in certain cases. 

 

Any how, I am very much looking forward to their release; it would mean a couple fewer rakes to try to build.

737 was returned as close as possible to original condition ........ hence it's not likely to steam again as - I believe - some of the replacenent fittings are made of wood !

An S.R. / B.R. era model would exhibit quite a few differences from original condition but, off hand, how was the 'C' class tackled in, say, the tender spring hanger department ?

[Edwardian]

737 was returned as close as possible to original condition ........ hence it's not likely to steam again as - I believe - some of the replacenent fittings are made of wood !

An S.R. / B.R. era model would exhibit quite a few differences from original condition but, off hand, how was the 'C' class tackled in, say, the tender spring hanger department ?

 

Thanks for that.  So, in this case, and as preserved NRM tie-in would probably be the best bet for a pre-Grouping version.   

[Dunsignalling]

 

  For years no coaches with which to run most engines, soon to be followed by RTR pre-Grouping coaches with no loco to pull 'em!  What are the chances of a C Class 0-6-0 working these fairly new and modern SECR coaches on the eve of the Great War with any regularity?  Low, I would have thought, but happy to be corrected.

 

 

The C class was quite numerous (very numerous by SR constituent company standards) and, prior to the arrival of the Maunsell Moguls, were often used in a mixed traffic role (less so afterwards).

 

Whether such new coaches would have seen much use in the sort of passenger trains they hauled is another matter, but I'd think they would have come together reasonably frequently in ecs workings. 

 

John

[Oldddudders]

What is this Ferrari/Morgan that your friend owns? I was unaware these two companies had combined to make a car.

 

Well, since you ask, he bought the Morgan new in 1969. It's only a 'cooking' 4/4, with Ford crossflow engine. The Ferrari, a rather unfashionable Mondial, was slightly secondhand when he bought it in the mid-80s. He much prefers driving the Morgan. His everyday car is a modern Mini Cooper. Oh, and he owns 14 acres of pleasant Kent countryside, including some hopper huts from the days when hoppers and their friends invaded the place to pick hops in season. 

[Edwardian]

The C class was quite numerous (very numerous by SR constituent company standards) and, prior to the arrival of the Maunsell Moguls, were often used in a mixed traffic role (less so afterwards).

 

Whether such new coaches would have seen much use in the sort of passenger trains they hauled is another matter, but I'd think they would have come together reasonably frequently in ecs workings. 

 

John

 

John, thanks, my thought exactly.  From memory these are quite modern coaches - 1913 or thereabouts - so period-wise they would go well with the C in the general release livery.  Whether the C in its mixed traffic role would typically have hauled these prestigious coaches when new is what I doubt.   

[Dunsignalling]

John, thanks, my thought exactly.  From memory these are quite modern coaches - 1913 or thereabouts - so period-wise they would go well with the C in the general release livery.  Whether the C in its mixed traffic role would typically have hauled these prestigious coaches when new is what I doubt.   

True, but how prestigious were they?

 

Most were formed into 3-coach sets from new, suggesting that, even if they were intended for fast services, they would have been split into shorter rakes en route to serve a couple of destinations (it still happens today with EMUs). The main portion would continue with the train loco but the second might be exactly the sort of thing a C would take over.

 

On that basis, I wouldn't lose any sleep over using them together so long as the layout wasn't set too close to London. 

 

John

Edited October 6, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Andy Hayter]

SMEG say that the C class was equally at home on semi-fast passenger trains as well as all manner of goods trains.

 

The birdcage stock was built for semi-fast operations.  A C class with birdcage stock would have been highly likely - indeed the SMEG site has a picture of one in Southern days with a set behind.

 

Would it have happened in 1913?  Maybe and maybe not, but somewhere I have a picture of SECR trains lined up for (IIRC) a race meeting and among the locos are a couple of C Class.  I could therefore envisage that even as early as 1913, they might be pressed into passenger service at peak times and quite possibly with a birdcage set(s) behind.. .

[pete_mcfarlane]

 Oh, and he owns 14 acres of pleasant Kent countryside, including some hopper huts from the days when hoppers and their friends invaded the place to pick hops in season. 

Which brings us nicely back to SECR birdcage coaches, these being the favoured way of transporting hoppers. 

[phil gollin]

.

 

Post-war were all the birdcage sets kept together, or were any broken up and the various coaches used as "loose" stock ?

 

Likewise, were any of the (putative) loose stock sent to other regions ?

 

.

[stewartingram]

Which brings us nicely back to SECR birdcage coaches, these being the favoured way of transporting hoppers. 

 

Let me get this right?

Bachmann are not doing Birdcage coaches, but are doing hopper wagons instead?

 

Stewart

[47606odin]

well, i have pre ordered a vermillion set from Hattons. why wouldn't I?

[47606odin]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pamlin-photo-postcard-M45-Hop-Pickers-Special-Train-31270-Riddlesdown-1949-/361281848478 heres a C class on what to me looks like birdcage stock. am i correct or is it the wrong type?

[Edwardian]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pamlin-photo-postcard-M45-Hop-Pickers-Special-Train-31270-Riddlesdown-1949-/361281848478 heres a C class on what to me looks like birdcage stock. am i correct or is it the wrong type?

 

Yes, but some vandal has painted over its nice lining and placed vulgar lettering along its tender!.

 

I would be more comforted by a pre-1923, preferably 1913-14, example, but I accept what is said about the lake coaches and the C being a probable combination.

 

Good for you for pre-ordering the first RTR standard gauge pre-Grouping coaching stock made to modern standards. 

[Adams442T]

If one in the Full Wainright could accurately represent the class in service during the Pre-Grouping years, that would be a different matter.  otherwise, it wouldn't go with the coaches.

 

I am a bit bored of accurate models of inaccurately preserved locos.  Unless you model a freelance preserved line set in a parallel universe in which everything has a current boiler certificate, I think these "as preserved" jobs are the wrong way to go, fit for Collectors and Runners.  Many could be the basis of conversions, but they simply join a long queue of projects in my case.  Given someone has gone to the considerable effort of producing a model, its a pity when sufficient tooling or livery options are not considered important enough.  I am sure not all such options would be "uneconomic" in all cases claimed.  It is getting to be an over used and under justified excuse, one suspects, because it can and has been done in certain cases. 

 

 

 

I quite agree!  Why, when most visitors to preserved lines would I suspect be happy afterwards to buy a 'pretty' livery locomotive, do manufacturers persist in making 'as preserved' locos instead of doing them in original condition.  I don't think 'because we can scan it' is a valid excuse, not when the same data is used (with appropriate modifications) for other variants.  Like you, I suspect, I have an increasing list of locos to be retro-fitted to original condition, but time, as always, is the problem.......

[brushman47544]

Bachmann did a while ago produce a Bulleid 3-set in OO gauge (34-500Z) complete with set numbers on each end of the brake coaches.

 

IIRC that was a limited edition set for The Signal Box or Modelzone, not a catalogue item.

Edited August 31, 2016 by brushman47544

[Clearwater]

I quite agree!  Why, when most visitors to preserved lines would I suspect be happy afterwards to buy a 'pretty' livery locomotive, do manufacturers persist in making 'as preserved' locos instead of doing them in original condition.  I don't think 'because we can scan it' is a valid excuse, not when the same data is used (with appropriate modifications) for other variants.  Like you, I suspect, I have an increasing list of locos to be retro-fitted to original condition, but time, as always, is the problem.......

Without wishing to typecast a buyer at a heritage line buying a model because they've just seen the prototype in a particular pretty livery, I'd suspect that said buyer would prob not be too fussed if there were differences to what they'd seen, particularly if that was backdating to an origInal condition

 

David

[Wickham Green]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pamlin-photo-postcard-M45-Hop-Pickers-Special-Train-31270-Riddlesdown-1949-/361281848478 heres a C class on what to me looks like birdcage stock. am i correct or is it the wrong type?

Yes - it's the wrong type ! ............ apart from one set which was added to all the 60' ( Bachmann ) birdcages ran as permanent trio-sets because the electrics were divided between the vehicles ( originally just one dynamo but a second one added later ) : by the date of that photo the odd one, Set 600, had been disbanded and the sixty footters converted for Pull & Push use ( yes, Bachmann, we're looking forward to them, in due course ) so what you see in that photo are older / shorter vehicles ( probably 46' to 51' ) with S.E.R. style panelling rather than 'Ashford Gothic' !

[Martin_R]

Engineering prototype pics up on the Bachmann website.

 

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/details.php?id=332

[Fireline]

Engineering prototype pics up on the Bachmann website.

 

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/details.php?id=332

 

Presumably the photos were taken in the drawing office. These coaches are rather agoraphobic, but seem to be happy there.