RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted July 10, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2013 'Boring' 1950s layout? The 1950s were a period when there was probably some of the greatest variety of designs of locomotives, coaches and wagons on Britian's railways. Not only were there still many pre-nationalisation locos around (of which a fair few were also pre-grouping), there were also the standard BR steam locos and the modernisation plan diesels in the late 50s. There are more liveries today, but far fewer designs and I for one actually like the eclectic mix of the 1950s that was brought about by the relatively short sighted political and operational viewpoints that gave as all of them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Anybody working near the sharp end of an outfit heading for trouble who has been there for any length of time can usually see how things are going; often even before it begins to show in the accounts. They will know what the good times were like and will quickly realise it doesn't feel that way any more. John Having dealt with them at the Canterbury show I'm not surprised they are going it alone. They are a very competent pair from what I could see, and very knowledgable in their chosen field. Its a shame they weren't able to purchase the Signal Box and keep it going, but I'm guessing the Sidcup shop was planned well in advance. It would also be interesting to know how much the SB is worth as a business, or how much the administrators think it is worth ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br-nse-fan Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 There are more liveries today, but far fewer designs and I for one actually like the eclectic mix of the 1950s that was brought about by the relatively short sighted political and operational viewpoints that gave as all of them The same could be said for the mid-80's also. If we exclude excursion and preservation traffic, the mid-80's had a large selection of motive power, including a fair number of the original modernization locomotives. Loco hauled passenger ran side by side with E/DMU's... freight was a mix of fitted and un-fitted stock, including some pre-nationalisation vehicles. Bauxite, Grey and Railfreight... Loco hauled stock could be MK1, MK2, MK3 (MK4?) and seen in Blue/Grey, NSE, InterCity, ScotRail, Provincial, JaffaCake, ect.. ect.. If you ask me, that's plenty of color! Anyway... lets not go too far off topic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreamnos Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 What I am struck by in many of the comments posted here is how price conscious we modellers are. (And good for us!) There are many posts about bargains to be found at MZ and about disappointment that said bargains don't apply to Hornby. There's also been some dismay that some prices were marked down only after they had been marked up - or vice versa! There have also been comments about how people wouldn't normally shop at MZ because its everyday prices were always too high, yet they were always happy to buy at MZ when they found something of interest there in a bargain bin. I have posted elsewhere on this site that I think the price of railway models has reached, or soon will reach, a point where new models simply are unaffordable to most people. And I have been largely told off with comments such as, "In inflation adjusted money, models are cheaper now than they have ever been." That is actually probably true. However, my response to that is, "In inflation adjusted money, wages and disposable income are lower now than they have ever been." So in spite of people disagreeing with me elsewhere on this site that models have gotten too expensive, I'd say that given the number of people who are looking for bargains, when it comes to actually handing money over people's actions speak louder than their words! Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Matt, I think that most modellers spend more in real terms than twenty or thirty years ago. The main difference is that there is now a much wider range of better products and most people want to own a large collection of models, usually locos. This "need to buy" has been increased by Special Editions, different livery versions, etc. As a result, purchase price becomes paramount and the proportion of spend on the smaller "modelling" items that the local shop stocks (or used to) is much less, so buying from the mail order/online cheapest supplier is the norm. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted July 10, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2013 It would also be interesting to know how much the SB is worth as a business, or how much the administrators think it is worth ... the same administrators who reconed 56301-303 were worth £700,000 each looking at some of the posts regarding the staff being upbeat at some shops that help may be forthcoming, the mood in one of the branches i visited was totally the opposite, the member of staff i spoke to said none of the employees there were holding out much hope as dellotte are seen as "asset strippers", from my experience with them, which could have cost me my whole career due to them losing all my safety critical file, i can totally sympathise with the workers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 10, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2013 Matt, I think that most modellers spend more in real terms than twenty or thirty years ago. The main difference is that there is now a much wider range of better products and most people want to own a large collection of models, usually locos. This "need to buy" has been increased by Special Editions, different livery versions, etc. As a result, purchase price becomes paramount and the proportion of spend on the smaller "modelling" items that the local shop stocks (or used to) is much less, so buying from the mail order/online cheapest supplier is the norm. Jol I'm very much inclined to agree with that Jol and I think you make an excellent point about the 'need to buy' with a wide availability of models - which have in effect created exactly such a market. as it happens my spend on 'smaller items' probably hasn't dropped but proportionally it may well have - but that's all tied up with what is available when or when it is need and so on. One thing which has changed over the past 20-30 years is the number of people with increased disposable income. While there is a difficult financial situation for many at present there is also clear evidence that the saying 'there's plenty of money about if you know where to look' has far more than a grain of truth too it. If nothing else the number of older people has increased and many of them going into a pensionable situation at present have the advantage of being long term fund members in final salary schemes so are getting pretty good pensions. One reason why older folk tend to be more prominent at some exhibitions, and very definitely so in the auction room, is because they are mortgage free, probably offspring free, have good pension incomes, and time to spend on hobbies as well as the money to finance those hobbies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2013 Matt, I think that most modellers spend more in real terms than twenty or thirty years ago. The main difference is that there is now a much wider range of better products and most people want to own a large collection of models, usually locos. This "need to buy" has been increased by Special Editions, different livery versions, etc. As a result, purchase price becomes paramount and the proportion of spend on the smaller "modelling" items that the local shop stocks (or used to) is much less, so buying from the mail order/online cheapest supplier is the norm. Jol You have just described, in a nutshell, a change from "modelling" to "collecting". John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C&WR Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 ...I have posted elsewhere on this site that I think the price of railway models has reached, or soon will reach, a point where new models simply are unaffordable to most people. And I have been largely told off with comments such as, "In inflation adjusted money, models are cheaper now than they have ever been." That is actually probably true. However, my response to that is, "In inflation adjusted money, wages and disposable income are lower now than they have ever been." ... Matt echoes exactly what I felt when getting back into the hobby. The sheer price of things these days took my breath away. Now I appreciate (as I was told by a rivet counter at a show) that "these are detailed scale models, not toys, you know" and also that getting a new locomotive or significant piece of stock would happen at Christmas, birthdays or important events like a very good school report (so not many of the latter!) but I am very glad that I was able to bring back into service a fairly good stable. I buy a fair number of wagons new, especially brewery trucks produced by various MRSs and stock which has resonance with the area where I grew up, but all my recent motive power purchases (less a Class 220 which was stupidly cheap at a certain NW Online store) have been from eBay! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Important news for any readers who have ordered 'Great Gathering' A4s via Modelzone - http://www.Hornby.com/news/the-great-gathering-an-update-for-modelzone-customers/ It is interesting to note that Hornby have announced that they will support customers with regards to some Limited Edition sets purchased through Modelzone. Does anyone know whether Bachmann (or any other manufacturer) is planing to make any similar announcements? I declare an interest here because I was looking forward to receiving one of Modelzone's (Bachmann) Lafarge-liveried class 20s about the end of this month... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2013 You have just described, in a nutshell, a change from "modelling" to "collecting". John Fair point, but there are clear instances on RMweb of bona-fide high-quality modelling, conducted on universally-admired layouts - yet the owner or owners also have stacks more locos than they ever need to run at any exhibition. I would be insulting any such person by calling him/her a "collector". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2013 It is interesting to note that Hornby have announced that they will support customers with regards to some Limited Edition sets purchased through Modelzone. Does anyone know whether Bachmann (or any other manufacturer) is planing to make any similar announcements? I declare an interest here because I was looking forward to receiving one of Modelzone's (Bachmann) Lafarge-liveried class 20s about the end of this month... I think that is a slightly different situation - in the case of Hornby Modelzone were effectively selling on Hornby's behalf thus it strikes me as good business practice to firstly pick up those orders in house because they might otherwise be 'lost' sales and secondly because it shows concern for those customers and still trying to get their order to them for something which is very special. With Bachmann Modelzone are presumably paying them to produce something exclusively for them and that is the deal. What Modelzone then do with what they have bought is in some respects irrelevant to Bachmann as long as they are paid for it, Modelzone have taken the commercial risk. I don't really see how that risk could then be transferred to individual customers - all Bachmann need do if they are not paid for the contract is attempt to sell the models off via another route as a commercial deal with whoever happens to buy them, could be a single outlet or they could be sold to a number of different buyers in the retail trade. and have teh things actually been produced yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Fair point, but there are clear instances on RMweb of bona-fide high-quality modelling, conducted on universally-admired layouts - yet the owner or owners also have stacks more locos than they ever need to run at any exhibition. I would be insulting any such person by calling him/her a "collector". Bob-on Ian. It's never about 'my dog's bigger than yours' in this game, as far as I'm concerned. Am I a collector? By simple definition, yes I am. I've lost count of the Bo-Bos and 1Co-Co1s* I've amassed to run what I believe will be a credible approximation of my chosen route in my chosen period. But are they box-fresh? Put simply, no they're not. Detailed, renumbered, altered, weathered to reflect what I have spent years painstakingly researching. And generally, I've hoovered them up cheap when they've been on special offer*. In the round, it's a fusion of modelling, aided and abetted by some judicious collecting! * MZ supplied at least half a dozen bargain bucket BFYE split box Peaks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C&WR Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Fair point, but there are clear instances on RMweb of bona-fide high-quality modelling, conducted on universally-admired layouts - yet the owner or owners also have stacks more locos than they ever need to run at any exhibition. I would be insulting any such person by calling him/her a "collector". What's wrong with collecting? I have rather a lot of fun seeking out brewery wagons (I set certain criteria, for example having drunk the beer from that producer or it having a meaning to my family) or finding wagons from companies we know (I was specially pleased by finding a Dapol special from a coal and coke merchants owned by a family friend). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bedding Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Fair point, but there are clear instances on RMweb of bona-fide high-quality modelling, conducted on universally-admired layouts - yet the owner or owners also have stacks more locos than they ever need to run at any exhibition. I would be insulting any such person by calling him/her a "collector". When I first became an 00 modeller, I also collected - occasionally - a monthly magazine that aimed itself "for the average modeller". Collectors in my peer group collected cigarette cards, postage stamps, and birds eggs. I deplore the relatively recent rise of class distinction/snobbery: "I am a modeller, you are only a collector". I hope it dies out soon. PB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 It is interesting to note that Hornby have announced that they will support customers with regards to some Limited Edition sets purchased through Modelzone. Does anyone know whether Bachmann (or any other manufacturer) is planing to make any similar announcements? I declare an interest here because I was looking forward to receiving one of Modelzone's (Bachmann) Lafarge-liveried class 20s about the end of this month... Regarding this point, the position of the Modelzone Limited Editions planned from Bachmann, a statement ascribed to Bachmann on this point, was printed in the August Hornby magazine, Page 13, released today: 'Bachmann Public Relations Manager Dennis Lovett said: ''Bachmann has confirmed that the limited edition models commissioned by Modelzone will still be manufactured, but in the current circumstances we are unable to comment on how they will be distributed'' This makes sense, as presumably if a buyer is found, Bachmann will want to negotiate the supply via the new owners, if the new owners do not wish to continue or the company ceases, at least the models are going to be produced and may be incorporated into the Bachmann range Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 What's wrong with collecting? I have rather a lot of fun seeking out brewery wagons (I set certain criteria, for example having drunk the beer from that producer or it having a meaning to my family) or finding wagons from companies we know (I was specially pleased by finding a Dapol special from a coal and coke merchants owned by a family friend). There is nothing wrong with collecting. It is usually seen as a positive, although sometimes a little eccentric, pastime. It often involves unusual, obsolete (e.g. Hornby Dublo or Trix), rare or "historic" items, but not necessarily. Getting people to buy the latest this or that is what many manufacturers, brands and retailers depend upon. So perhaps we should refer to consumerism. So would that make someone that buys the latest releases or even RTR models in significant quantities simply a consumer? Of course we also have the hoary old question "what is modelling". Personally I think it is rather more than buying RTR items, no matter how good or cheap they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2013 Fair point, but there are clear instances on RMweb of bona-fide high-quality modelling, conducted on universally-admired layouts - yet the owner or owners also have stacks more locos than they ever need to run at any exhibition. I would be insulting any such person by calling him/her a "collector". The models I have personalised by renaming, weathering, detailing etc. constitute modelling; and, yes some of those would now be "collectors items" had I left them unmolested. Those I have purchased whilst I may in order to "do" in future, or purely for the display cabinet, constitute collecting. As do numerous diecast buses/cars etc., the nostalgic appeal of which I have great difficulty in resisting. The borders are often blurred and there is no disgrace in occupying either camp or both. Each to his own. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2013 To put it simply I collect rolling stock to run on the layout. Whether or not any of it originates from MZ (and a little of it does) I own far more than I can run in any given session. For which I have no doubt the manufacturers and retailers are duly grateful and I in turn am delighted to be able to enjoy such variety. Even if that "variety" sometimes includes several nominally similar locos they carry different names, numbers and weathering. No two are the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C&WR Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Of course we also have the hoary old question "what is modelling". Personally I think it is rather more than buying RTR items, no matter how good or cheap they are. Aha! Therefore I model in terms of my scenery, but just buy what runs on it. I'm too chicken to set about weathering my precious rolling stock, although I have just invested in some detailing kits for my Class 37 & Class 47 and have put Cornish Riviera Express bits & bobs on the King Class and coaches. I just need to pluck up the courage to set about the diesel locomotives with a scalpel & files! Using this definition I can safely say all my modelling supplies came from ModelZone. It was not only the only local place that had a good stock of what I wanted, it gave me the opportunity to go in and touch the stuff and talk about it with some very helpful staff (and on one occasion in the Reading branch a couple of fellow customers joined in the debate) but sadly a branch cannot be sustained on rolls of Gaugemaster underlay, bags of Woodland Scenics stuff and the odd kit, although my styrene habit could probably keep a market stall running... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 With Bachmann Modelzone are presumably paying them to produce something exclusively for them and that is the deal. What Modelzone then do with what they have bought is in some respects irrelevant to Bachmann as long as they are paid for it, Modelzone have taken the commercial risk. I'm wondering how much of ModelZone's capital is tied up with limited edition models which have been paid for in advance (at least in part) and won't be delivered for some time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2013 I have a collection of models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2013 I have a collection of models Some people have all the luck (I am thinking about the right sort of models?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2013 * MZ supplied at least half a dozen bargain bucket BFYE split box Peaks! Model collecting and model making may or may not be two different hobbies. But clearly RMweb members come in two flavours: 1. Those who know what a "BFYE split box Peak" is. 2. Those of us who haven't the faintest idea. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 ... clearly RMweb members come in two flavours: 1. Those who know what a "BFYE split box Peak" is. 2. Those of us who haven't the faintest idea. Martin. LOL. I'm pretty sure I could take half the posts on the forum and split them down in a similar way. Each to his or her own, I guess! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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