RMweb Gold 81C Posted December 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2016 I must admit I've been thinking of emailing Taffy at Oxford Rail to see if he would consider doing them as Hornby have just done the new Collett coaches this year and Bachmann unfortunately seems to be a lost cause these days what a better coach than an early period toplight to go with the Deans Goods, or If we collectively get together and approach Oxford in numbers he might sit up and listen. Your thought's and /or ideas please. Thanks for your thoughts' and comments Chaps it might be wise at this stage to generalise on "Toplights" at the moment rather than the many variants then later on work out the best way forward to get as many as possible and a short list of manufactures where there might be a chance of getting an ear to listen, again please keep the ideas coming in and don't forget to vote on the "Wishlist" even those of you that have no interest in new coaches circumstances could change. One other thing I did consider was (A) who owns the Slaters kit moulds I've heard of 2 different owners on this forum (B) is there anyone interested in trying to get these kit revived © would you be interested in crowd funding. BTW I only mentioned Oxford Rail as I have found Taffy to be approachable and helpful in the past, if there is anyone you know pass it on. Edit I've just seen the Cooper Craft thread and wait with baited breath. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 ...One other thing I did consider was (A) who owns the Slaters kit moulds I've heard of 2 different owners on this forum ... 2 different owners of the same moulds? Is there litigation involved? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 2 different owners of the same moulds? Is there litigation involved? I think that refers to the O and HO moulds going to different owners. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Davies Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 By 1947 the paneled toplights general service stock, were coming to the end of their lives with most general stock gone by the mid 1950's. As for condition, life extension repairs saw much of the paneling removed. As an example he is a close up of a Brake third in the late 40's with few of the original panels lefts. Every door on this one had been replaced with steel panels. On the plus side, the Slater's kit can have the panels filled in with plasticard. Toplight D80 4226 insignia.jpg Mike Wiltshire I find it easier to remove the unwanted beading as opposed to 'filling in'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted January 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2017 Thanks for your thoughts' and comments Chaps it might be wise at this stage to generalise on "Toplights" at the moment rather than the many variants then later on work out the best way forward to get as many as possible and a short list of manufactures where there might be a chance of getting an ear to listen, again please keep the ideas coming in and don't forget to vote on the "Wishlist" even those of you that have no interest in new coaches circumstances could change. One other thing I did consider was (A) who owns the Slaters kit moulds I've heard of 2 different owners on this forum (B) is there anyone interested in trying to get these kit revived © would you be interested in crowd funding. BTW I only mentioned Oxford Rail as I have found Taffy to be approachable and helpful in the past, if there is anyone you know pass it on. Edit I've just seen the Cooper Craft thread and wait with baited breath. Hi guys, Only just seen the updated comments on here about the Toplights, I am sure everyone knows my view by now, but any mention of Toplight RTR or a kit and I will join that party! Hornby would be good (affordable), but I think with their recent Collets and Hawksworth carriages is probably unlikely. Goodness knows what the view would be at Bachmann... I had kind of given up with seeing any more Toplights in kit form and RTR given the issues firstly with Coopercraft and secondly for an RTR due to the variations with the carriages over the years. Rapido would do a cracking job of an RTR rake, but I do wonder what the price would be - £60? What would we need? Brake K22; Brake Third (left & right); Composite (left & right). Thats a rake of 5 to start with; make it 6 by including a third. There would be a huge debate about which particular Toplights were to be modelled - the armchair rivet counters would have a field day Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 ...Rapido would be way outside you price range.... Undoubtedly, but I was thinking of all those who voted for Toplights in the polls. I don't really need any. Mind you, at least Rapido would have built me one for the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Rapido would do a cracking job of an RTR rake, but I do wonder what the price would be - £60? What would we need? Brake K22; Brake Third (left & right); Composite (left & right). Thats a rake of 5 to start with; make it 6 by including a third. I suppose you don't necessarily need a complete rake, mix and match with the Hornby Collets maybe plus the odd Bachmann Collett Sunshine stock, a Hornby Clerestory and if post war stretch to a Hornby Hawksworth. Say a composite, a third and a brake third I think would be enough to add variety. (But yes a full brake would be nice too.) Given a lot of us don't seem to baulk at another loco at well over £100 even stretching reality (guilty of that myself) two to three coaches, that are pretty essential for typical GWR scenes, for similar money seems reasonable to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Roll on the £150 RTR OO coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Roll on the £150 RTR OO coach. Er......no rush , eh ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Roll on the £150 RTR OO coach. Makes £90 for a David Geen Toplight coach kit quite attractive! Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted January 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2017 Roll on the £150 RTR OO coach. You get what you pay for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 2 different owners of the same moulds? Is there litigation involved? One owner, one licencee, and litigation ( allegedly) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Rapido would do a cracking job of an RTR rake, but I do wonder what the price would be - £60? What would we need? Brake K22; Brake Third (left & right); Composite (left & right). Thats a rake of 5 to start with; make it 6 by including a third. I think, that for a new project, both Bachmann and Hornby would have difficulty making the price less than £60 given the potential sales for early coaches. The next Rapido HO coach is listed at US$99.95 and given that the pound seems to heading for parity with the dollar, Toplights at £100 wouldn't surprise me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Makes £90 for a David Geen Toplight coach kit quite attractive! Mike Wiltshire Which is roughly where some slaters ones went for on eBay recently Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 There is no need for matching sets of anything. This is the Great Western! Sticking to 57' corridor stock, by the late Thirties you see from the photographs an eclectic mix of stock.. I would suggest the main varieties would be wooden panelled Toplights, steel-bodied Toplights, Collett Bow-Enders from the mid-'twenties, Collett flat-enders from the early-thirties and Sunshine stock, from '36. At least I would suggest that if you wanted representative diagrams in prototypical formations, you would want examples of at least, say, 2-3 of the above main varieties all mixed together to get that prototypical look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 And why would potential sales be limited? Was the recent Lyme Regis stock issued by Hornby at a premium price? Toplights were used as long lived Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Which is roughly where some slaters ones went for on eBay recently Second-hand unbuilt Mallard/Blacksmith, Slaters and D&S kits go for, from my perspective, silly sums. I can't afford to play that game. Better to think round the problem than delve ever deeper into the wallet. It shows what happens when supplies of a kit become limited or dry up completely. Whether that demand translates to potential RTR customers for models of some of the older prototype stock is another matter. I confess, I have not considered the longevity of the wooden-bodied Toplights, as I have never needed to know what happened to them after 1935. I gather that the steel-sided vehicles built either side of the Great War might have lasted longer, or with fewer external changes. If so, perhaps that is the better choice? That is where something like the wish-list poll shows its limitations - which Toplight designs and which livery periods are people interested in? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2017 Given the number of different designs, and the changes in panelling & plated over toplights over time (meaning that a tooling suitable for early BR wouldnt be any good for early GWR) I still think kits are the ideal way forward for these. The Dave Geen kits are just a bit too pricey for me at the moment, but the Worsley Works 'kits' show promise at about half the price once you have sourced the roof and bogies, but again there are only 5 offered (and the tumblehomes are not preformed. I would say the loss of the etched Blacksmith / Mallard range was a bigger loss than the Slaters plastic kits, given the wide range of different diagrams offered (likewise the loss of the 247 coach sides). All this talk of Toplights has made me think again about getting some bogies for the third sides / ends / roof I sourced from Coopercraft back at Wells. would be nice to actually get it finished, i assume now the only source for a toplight bogie would be Dave Geen? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Second-hand unbuilt Mallard/Blacksmith, Slaters and D&S kits go for, from my perspective, silly sums. I can't afford to play that game. Better to think round the problem than delve ever deeper into the wallet. It shows what happens when supplies of a kit become limited or dry up completely. Whether that demand translates to potential RTR customers for models of some of the older prototype stock is another matter. I confess, I have not considered the longevity of the wooden-bodied Toplights, as I have never needed to know what happened to them after 1935. I gather that the steel-sided vehicles built either side of the Great War might have lasted longer, or with fewer external changes. If so, perhaps that is the better choice? That is where something like the wish-list poll shows its limitations - which Toplight designs and which livery periods are people interested in? Cooper Craft were selling the plastic sides separately at shows, but the last time the stocks were very low. Do Comet make any sides which could either be stuck on to any RTR coaches ? or bought as full kits Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 And why would potential sales be limited? Was the recent Lyme Regis stock issued by Hornby at a premium price? Toplights were used as long lived I don't say that they would be sold at premium prices. The Hornby LSWR re-builds were started 3-4 years ago - before the increase in costs from Chinese factories and the fall in the pound after Brexit. I just don't think you can expect many £60 coaches in the future, unless the volumes can match, say BR Mk1s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2017 I think, that for a new project, both Bachmann and Hornby would have difficulty making the price less than £60 given the potential sales for early coaches. The next Rapido HO coach is listed at US$99.95 and given that the pound seems to heading for parity with the dollar, Toplights at £100 wouldn't surprise me. I would be very surprised to see Toplights at £60 RRP from any mainstream manufacturer or commissioner. At today's prices I would start with thoughts around the £70-75 mark and then think about rising costs in China and the falling £ against relevant currencies plus a probably limited market meaning smaller runs meaning higher prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Cooper Craft were selling the plastic sides separately at shows, but the last time the stocks were very low. Do Comet make any sides which could either be stuck on to any RTR coaches ? or bought as full kits I'll have to investigate the issue. I have 2-3 spare PC Toplights. This gets me the roof, fittings, ends, bogies etc. I feel that the Slater's sides would not be a good match due to their thickness; the PC kits use profiled metal sections to form the sole-bars and lower sides. This would reduce the PC kit to a pack of parts, rather than allow it to be constructed as a kit with substitute sides. Would I be able to get away with brass sides? Of course, there is the little matter of matching bogies and u/f trussing to the diagram of the replacement sides where it differs from the diagram portrayed in the kit. I note that Worsley Works produce sides for £12 of the following steel-sided 57' Toplights. Although I have seen some with angle-trusses and some of the ex-Ambulance rebuilds are recorded as Bars I, generally these seem to have been multi-bar types. Original bogies seem to have been 9' Fishbelly. Others noted are 8' and 9' Americans and later some pressed-steels. This is ideal for me and I think I shall give these a go. C32 Third of 1914 D56 Van Third, both LH and RH, 1914, 1919-1921 E98 Composite of 1914 K22, 1915, 1921-1922 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I'll have to investigate the issue. I have 2-3 spare PC Toplights. This gets me the roof, fittings, ends, bogies etc. I feel that the Slater's sides would not be a good match due to their thickness; the PC kits use profiled metal sections to form the sole-bars and lower sides. This would reduce the PC kit to a pack of parts, rather than allow it to be constructed as a kit with substitute sides. Would I be able to get away with brass sides? Of course, there is the little matter of matching bodies and u/f trussing to the diagram of the replacement sides where it differs from the diagram portrayed in the kit. I note that Worsley Works produce sides for £12 of the following steel-sided 57' Toplights. Although I have seen some with angle-trusses and some of the ex-Ambulance rebuilds are recorded as Bars I, generally these seem to have been multi-bar types. Original bogies seem to have been 9' Fishbelly. Others noted are 8' and 9' Americans and later some pressed-steels. This is ideal for me and I think I shall give these a go. C32 Third of 1914 D56 Van Third, both LH and RH, 1914, 1919-1921 E98 Composite of 1914 K22, 1915, 1921-1922 I have been in touch with Worsley Works previously and if you can source drawings for the sides he is willing to etch them for you. I suppose the common sources are Russell's tomes on the subject. I am also aware that someone else on here has used the PC kits with replacement brass sides - Hayfield was that you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2017 I'll have to investigate the issue. I have 2-3 spare PC Toplights. This gets me the roof, fittings, ends, bogies etc. I note that Worsley Works produce sides for £12 of the following steel-sided 57' Toplights. Although I have seen some with angle-trusses and some of the ex-Ambulance rebuilds are recorded as Bars I, generally these seem to have been multi-bar types. Original bogies seem to have been 9' Fishbelly. Others noted are 8' and 9' Americans and later some pressed-steels. This is ideal for me and I think I shall give these a go. C32 Third of 1914 D56 Van Third, both LH and RH, 1914, 1919-1921 E98 Composite of 1914 K22, 1915, 1921-1922 Sadly nothing from Comet (which would have been the best option given they preform the sides). Frogmore also offer a few diagrams (a sort of half way house of sides, ends and some details (grab handles etc) for a D56 left and right hand brake, E82 break compo and G55 Saloon for 26£ (needing roof, bogies, floor and castings to complete) It will be interesting to see what Blacksmith etchings Coopercraft still have available (and if they are producing more or just running down stock). but thats an even more expensive route if you only want the sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I have been in touch with Worsley Works previously and if you can source drawings for the sides he is willing to etch them for you. I suppose the common sources are Russell's tomes on the subject. I am also aware that someone else on here has used the PC kits with replacement brass sides - Hayfield was that you? Slightly confused by your response - the diagram nos. mentioned are for sale, suggesting he has produced them. Do you mean other Toplight diagrams would be produced if you produced drawings? Sadly nothing from Comet (which would have been the best option given they preform the sides). Frogmore also offer a few diagrams (a sort of half way house of sides, ends and some details (grab handles etc) for a D56 left and right hand brake, E82 break compo and G55 Saloon for 26£ (needing roof, bogies, floor and castings to complete) It will be interesting to see what Blacksmith etchings Coopercraft still have available (and if they are producing more or just running down stock). but thats an even more expensive route if you only want the sides. Now you mention it, I realise that I have a handed pair of Frogmore D56s (duh!) and that these are 3 compt. Van Thirds. More usual are 4 compt. Van Thirds. I only know of one service on the S Devon mainline in the Thirties for which the CWTT specifies 3 compt. Van Thirds. The Collett Bow-Ended equivalent is D94, which BSL/Phoenix used to produce (before this range, too, disappeared into the void of those who never answer customer enquiries). I note that a fair number of D56s were produced, which begs the question of for which services the 3 compt. Van Thirds were needed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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