Wickham Trolley

[Kenton]

 

I seem to recall a technical explanation as to why a very small motor would be no good in this model.  As I recall it's because the wheels are very small so the axle is very low meaning not enough clearance for a big gear wheel, which is what would be needed for a small motor (to rev its guts out).  A tiny motor hasn't got much torque so can't drive a small gear wheel which is all that there's room for.

The clearance isn't the problem, nor is the pulling power - it is the gauge and wheelbase. I've placed a 9mm gauge Portram motor/chassis under a 4mm model. ie 009 (using the same unit as used for the Lister But it was 009 not OO - sure it was slow and didn't pull anything other than itself. But the point is that there are motor designs available - with commercial scale ways could be found. That lump under the trolley looks like it houses something - two screws for access!

 

I'm sure I have seen one motorised in OO where the motor was hidden under a toolbox. I've certainly seen a 7mm one working on a layout, and as they say it is only a matter of scale.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Kenton

[Derekstuart]

Phil,

 

purely for the challenge of it. The more people say it cannot be done, the more determined they will be.

 

I don't think the issue is so much to have a working trolley- I think the issue is proving it can be done.

[mikeharvey22]

When it comes to drive systems the Faller Car System in 1/87 cars and N trucks and buses manages to drive a 1.5 volt 6mm diameter motor powering a 6 mm diameter wheel through a 30:1 -ish worm drive. OK, not much weight but a perfectly reliable drive set up.

[Dunsignalling]

Phil,

 

purely for the challenge of it. The more people say it cannot be done, the more determined they will be.

 

I don't think the issue is so much to have a working trolley- I think the issue is proving it can be done.

It's certainly possible; I've seen two that worked well in 4mm scale and the owner of one was quite open about how he did it. He was also open about the model not being his first attempt at it and that he was having thoughts about doing it differently for his next!

 

However, the model was running on a tiny diorama on which immaculate track construction and maintenance is practical, not a 20' x 30' exhibition tail-chaser that had just been erected after spending the night in a parked van. 

 

How many of the people criticising the Bachmann model could do it and make it work on a real-world layout rather than a demo track? Not many.

 

Could I do it? Emphatically, no.

 

Would I prefer one that worked well on a normal layout without a trailer? Undoubtedly.

 

Do I think it could currently be done, in commercial quantities and at a price anywhere near Bachmann's? No, but ask me again in three or four years time.

 

While I'm waiting, the Bachmann one will do me very nicely, thank you.     

 

John

Edited September 8, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[t-b-g]

It might well have been technically possible to get a motor mounted under the floor of the main trolley. I once saw a dead scale 4mm scale Welsh narrow gauge layout with a motorised slate wagon to haul a "gravity" train. It was not only motorised with a 3mm diameter motor but was DCC fitted. The motor in that one would have gone below the floor of the Wickham easily and it worked well on tiny wheels at scale slow speeds. The DCC chip took care of the lower voltage (it was a 3v motor from memory but it was a few years ago when I saw it).

 

If such things are possible for the home builder, then they are certainly possible for a manufacturer.

 

I don't know for sure but I am guessing that the motorised trailer allowed for already available parts to be used rather than needing a whole lot of research and development to get the trolley moving by itself.

 

It is one of those things where no matter what Bachmann do, it would have been wrong. If they motorise a trailer it is wrong. If they spend a lot more money on R & D and get the trolley motorised and it puts an extra £50 on the price, they would have got slated for that too.

 

Sometimes they just can't win.

Edited September 8, 2015 by t-b-g

[PaulRhB]

Well at least it opens up the possibility for an enterprising cottage industry to offer a etch or 3D print chassis to prove it can be done If kato can build the portram chassis that several have fitted under a 4mm NG simplex then it's certainly possible but I suspect Bachmann were looking at reliable running as many will buy it as a novelty. Their American arm have produced a tiny if fairly crude pump trolley for the last 20 years.

[Phil Parker]

Well at least it opens up the possibility for an enterprising cottage industry to offer a etch or 3D print chassis to prove it can be done If kato can build the portram chassis that several have fitted under a 4mm NG simplex then it's certainly possible but I suspect Bachmann were looking at reliable running as many will buy it as a novelty. Their American arm have produced a tiny if fairly crude pump trolley for the last 20 years.

 

Unless anyone only researches the prototype via the Bachmann catalogue, they'll have known about the Wickham for many years so why would anyone produce a new chassis now? Why not for one of the kits already available?

 

My thought is that while a fiddly drive system is OK for model engineers, in a world of people who struggle to plug details into bufferbeams, such a mechanism would have a pretty short life. Bachmann have to make a model that will cope with being treated as a novelty, has to deal with dead-frog points and must be relatively cheap. I'm sure more R&D could give a chassis with a tiny motor so the trailer wasn't needed, but the costs of this would have to be loaded onto this model as it's unlikely anything else in the range would make use of them. Even the 009 & On3 stuff is bigger!

 

How many would buy a tiny single car unit costing a couple of hundred quid? As sellers of N gauge have found, UK modellers think price should be proportional to size and moan when a 2mm loco costs as much as a 4mm one.

 

Another thought is that most people aren't going to run this prototypically. Surely they only found themselves on track during engineers posessions of a line. We'll be running them in between normal trains. If the top speed of the Wickham is too slow it s going to find itself rammed by a Railroad Flying Scotsman on some layouts!

[PenrithBeacon]

... The body is available in whitemetal and etched brass kits.

 

...

By whom?

 

Regards

[brianthesnail96]

Several whole seconds on Google show that N Brass Locos do one for 00 or 009 (and a selection of trailers). Unsurprisingly it's etched, obviously not motorised- but fitting a motor and pickups and hiding it all away without being obtrusive or having to resort to putting the curtains on should be easy enough (after all, it's what Bachmann should have done...) .

[PaulRhB]

they'll have known about the Wickham for many years so why would anyone produce a new chassis now? Why not for one of the kits already available?

!

Hence the smiley plus there's a fair few people now 3D printing small chassis for existing kits to get motors out of cabs.

It would be pretty easy to modify an N gauge chassis such as the Portram or other micro gearboxes to fit I'm sure. I've seen a motorised white metal one and to be honest was a tad surprised they didn't but I guess reliable pickup on insulfrogs and who they think will buy the majority lead to this solution plus getting a chip in possibly. We know it's all possible and I've just added more weight to a Hornby Sentinel to give even better running as it wasn't as good as I wanted. I assume the trolley is prototypical and as pointed out other options are available if you want the ultimate model. An etch one with compensated chassis and stuffed with shot and white metal figures would run well and although fiddly must be a fairly simple build as there's not much to them

Edited September 8, 2015 by PaulRhB

[Phil Parker]

Several whole seconds on Google show that N Brass Locos do one for 00 or 009 (and a selection of trailers). Unsurprisingly it's etched, obviously not motorised- but fitting a motor and pickups and hiding it all away without being obtrusive or having to resort to putting the curtains on should be easy enough (after all, it's what Bachmann should have done...) .

 

And I built a whitemetal kit years ago - I thought it was Springside but if it was, it isn't in the range now. I found mention of a Nu-Cast one though, again not currently available.

 

And if you prefer resin, DC Kits - http://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/shop/dc_kits/kits/locomotives_coaches_departmental/wickham_s_type_27_motorised_ganger_trolley_kit_trailor_unmotorised_.php with sides, motor and no trailer.

 

In fact, there is a very helpful thread on this very forum: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48551-wickham-trolleys/

[Derekstuart]

Hello John (dunsignalling)

 

I am not criticising Bachmann at all for releasing this. It will sell well, of that I am sure.

 

When I say that others will have a go and WILL make it work- I am talking about individual modellers who will spend time and money to do so. I agree that it would not be possible (or likely at the very least) to make something more accurate that will work on RTR and be commercially viable. The sort of people who will make this work properly with a micro motor are the very people who DO have immaculate track.

 

 

However, I do wonder whether your exhibition example of 20' by 30' tail chaser is really the best. After all, these trolleys weren't really noted for racing up and down main lines all day. I would be surprised if they ventured more than a few miles from their ramp and I suspect (though I do not know- surely others will) that they weren't overly fast either.

 

 

www.clag.org.uk/axle-hung.html - and I believe these are not the smallest available.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Derekstuart

[phil-b259]

 

Another thought is that most people aren't going to run this prototypically. Surely they only found themselves on track during engineers posessions of a line. We'll be running them in between normal trains. If the top speed of the Wickham is too slow it s going to find itself rammed by a Railroad Flying Scotsman on some layouts!

 

They are NOT only used in engineers possessions - on my local Heritage railway we regularly have them enter the single line section to drop off men and materials between trains (timetable allowing of course). They receive a single line token, just as a regular as a train would - have bell codes (1-2-1 or 1-3-1) allocated to them and use proper running / shunt signals to control movements.

 

However as their speed is limited and their braking ability is not as good as a regular train / loco it is important to not overload them and to pay particular attention to the railhead conditions (are they wet for example). The other issue is that because of their lightweight nature they cannot be relied on to operate track circuits correctly which may in turn mean signals have to 'time off' before the lever can be fully replaced to danger and other levers operated. Having a heavily loaded trailer is actually beneficial in this respect as the increased pressure on the railhead helps both with braking and reliability of track circuit occupation.

 

Thus while clearly they are unsuitable for modern railways (where RRVs versatility is a big advantage or speed / traffic issues abound) and were unlikely to be seen running up and down the WCML or BML during the day - even in the 50s / 60s / 70s, there was no reason why in principle* they could not be out and about mixed in with 'proper' trains working ordinary services.

 

* I am not sure about the situation on lines with 3rd rail - logic says that given their low ride height it would be hazardous to have them running about with the juice (railwaymens slang for electricity) as the chances of steeping on the live rail when alighting must be grater than when climbing down off a loco say

Edited September 8, 2015 by phil-b259

[Kenton]

 

N Brass Locos do one for 00 or 009 (and a selection of trailers). Unsurprisingly it's etched, obviously not motorised- but fitting a motor and pickups

... and just for completeness this is what the components look like in their 'flat pack' state sitting patiently in the long queue.

 

Nice tidy etches in n-s for strength. fr 009 it is fairly easy a build though a dab hand with the iron is required, it could probably be assembled with superglue as long as you don't stick the small parts to your fingers by accident. For 009 the Portram is a pretty close match for wheelbase. The issue as always with kits is hiding enough weight for traction.

 

There was a whitemetal kit for 7mm but it was a bit chunky.

[Derekstuart]

Without impugning Phil's useful comment- and I'm sure he's right- does anyone here have any evidence that these trolleys could be seen out on main running lines that were operational at the time?

I can understand it in the case of a leafy, rural branch line with a single road- especially where it might be several hours between trains and these trolleys are the only way of getting people/ equipment there. But even on a secondary line, I'd have thought having a fast moving train coming towards you only 6ft away (sitting in one of these must be akin to a Morris Mini) would have un-settled the occupants or even un-settled the tiny wheels.

 

Did they tend to move far down lines? I've only ever seen one in the confines of a yard or a maximum of perhaps a mile or so away. I'm sure if it's further away a proper train would be organised.

[Dunsignalling]

Without impugning Phil's useful comment- and I'm sure he's right- does anyone here have any evidence that these trolleys could be seen out on main running lines that were operational at the time?

 

I can understand it in the case of a leafy, rural branch line with a single road- especially where it might be several hours between trains and these trolleys are the only way of getting people/ equipment there. But even on a secondary line, I'd have thought having a fast moving train coming towards you only 6ft away (sitting in one of these must be akin to a Morris Mini) would have un-settled the occupants or even un-settled the tiny wheels.

 

Did they tend to move far down lines? I've only ever seen one in the confines of a yard or a maximum of perhaps a mile or so away. I'm sure if it's further away a proper train would be organised.

The Bluebell (who I think Phil is referring to) certainly do use theirs between service trains, signalled normally, I think. The last time I was up there, our train was delayed for a few minutes waiting for it to come out of section. It was a very wet day and I suspect a bit of extra caution was being exercised.

 

As for a passing train 6ft away making the occupants of one nervous, when on foot, the minimum "safe" distance is (or used to be) 4ft from the nearest rail except on 100mph+ lines. I never got closer than 6ft to a train doing up to 80mph. When standing with the rail at about knee height, that was quite hairy enough for me! 

 

In steam days (and until comparatively recent times) there were procedures for taking short term blocks on sections of line to use trolleys (either powered or hand-propelled) between scheduled trains but they weren't signalled as trains. IIRC, the arrangements were similar to those used when a rail needed changing. 

 

John

Edited September 8, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[Phil Parker]

The Bluebell (who I think Phil is referring to) certainly do use theirs between service trains, signalled normally, I think. The last time I was up there, our train was delayed for a few minutes waiting for it to come out of section. It was a very wet day and I suspect a bit of extra caution was being exercised.

 

 

Sorry, I was a little unclear. I was refering to normal main line railways, NOT preserved lines. If you model a preserved line then then I suspect the rules for using these things are a bit looser than anything owned by Network Rail or BR.

 

My reasoning is that the trolley would have to occupy a block to avoid it tangling with a normal train. It's slow speed would mess up the timetable. However, I'm no expert and would welcome someone who knows about the trolley use on steam-era railways clarifying the rules.

[cctransuk]

Sorry, I was a little unclear. I was refering to normal main line railways, NOT preserved lines. If you model a preserved line then then I suspect the rules for using these things are a bit looser than anything owned by Network Rail or BR.

 

My reasoning is that the trolley would have to occupy a block to avoid it tangling with a normal train. It's slow speed would mess up the timetable. However, I'm no expert and would welcome someone who knows about the trolley use on steam-era railways clarifying the rules.

 

From what I recall from the time in question, these trollies were quite sprightly.

 

I would have thought that they would be run in some of the longer intervals between service trains.

 

They could, of course, be manhandled off the track when needed.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[ruggedpeak]

Well it looks like a great little model to me. I am baffled by the criticism - if anyone else can do a better job of mass producing a motorised Wickham without a trailer, crack on. Even Mr D. Jones hasn't decided to go head to head on this one!

 

What would also be good is use the moulding to produce unmotored trollies on their own, to dot around layouts, and allow those who want to demonstrate their skills for less money. I reckon unmotored would sell well too as a scenic item.

 

Well done Bachmann. Good to see them (also with new S stock models) and Hornby producing some real innovations Sorry if that's a bit positive.

[Dunsignalling]

Sorry, I was a little unclear. I was refering to normal main line railways, NOT preserved lines. If you model a preserved line then then I suspect the rules for using these things are a bit looser than anything owned by Network Rail or BR.

 

My reasoning is that the trolley would have to occupy a block to avoid it tangling with a normal train. It's slow speed would mess up the timetable. However, I'm no expert and would welcome someone who knows about the trolley use on steam-era railways clarifying the rules.

Not allowed at all on the national network these days.

 

However, back in the day, BR didn't run trains every half hour through the off-peak like today's privatised set up (which does wonders for the daily seats-provided stats). There were quite big gaps, even on main lines, when the PWay could and did move stuff around using these methods without getting in anybody's way. Gangers and Signalmen sorted it out between themselves with no need for an army of office staff to plan it all for them. 

 

Bear in mind, too, they didn't go very far in one hop, even 5 miles would probably be stretching it, maybe 20 minutes tops. 

 

John

Edited September 8, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[Titan]

They are still in use today, here is a modern equivalent:

 

http://bance.com/4manpetrolalumicart/

Edited September 8, 2015 by Titan

[Combe Martin]

I'm sure I've seen tales of these sneaking out onto the main line at quiet periods on the Somerset & Dorset.

[PhilJ W]

Well it looks like a great little model to me. I am baffled by the criticism - if anyone else can do a better job of mass producing a motorised Wickham without a trailer, crack on. Even Mr D. Jones hasn't decided to go head to head on this one! What would also be good is use the moulding to produce unmotored trollies on their own, to dot around layouts, and allow those who want to demonstrate their skills for less money. I reckon unmotored would sell well too as a scenic item. Well done Bachmann. Good to see them (also with new S stock models) and Hornby producing some real innovations Sorry if that's a bit positive.

A static (unpowered) version would be great. Atlas editions are bringing out a road-rail Unimog in their 'World of Stobart' series, I think they would look great standing in an engineers yard together. The road-rail Unimog incidentally was what replaced the Wickham trolleys so a 'transfer over' scenario is a possibility.

[Derekstuart]

Titan,

 

are you sure that's not virgin's (or stagecoach to be precise) HST replacement for the ECML?

 

It certainly looks far more comfortable than a voyager.

[PaulRhB]

There's land rovers still in use for patrolling up in the Highlands and they were used a few years back on Wessex for leaf fall. They went on at crossings under a block with dets protecting them, I can't remember if it was a full possession or line block between trains but they were only short blocks at night of an hour or so. There are also the man riders as seen in CK's posts of the Bath blockade but they only get used in Possessions.

There are trials on to speed up patrols by using trollies again but the problem is picking up the dets protecting them unless you either leave a man there with a van or return back to the start point which wastes time.