Bachmann Warflats

[Phil Bullock]

4 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Phil,

This was one of the wagons sold for use by BR. They were used for various traffics, including concrete beams, but the ones I was most familiar with were were a small Pool in South Wales. These transported ingot moulds from RTB (later BSC) Landore to steelworks around the UK, up until the late 1970s. Dad worked there from the late 1960s until 1977, whilst I spent the summer vac of 1975 there,passing a lot of time looking over these wagons (though sadly with neither notebook or camera). Most had the jacks removed, though one retained them. All had received some new paint, one being predominately bauxite. I can't confirm this at this late date, but I'm sure Bilston was one plant served, in which case they passed Abbotswood......A Warflat would have carried a couple of ingot mould, one over each bogie.

 

Cracking gen as always Brian - many thanks. But as I suspected not with AFVs....

[Fat Controller]

Just now, Phil Bullock said:

 

Cracking gen as always Brian - many thanks. But as I suspected not with AFVs....

The wagons were part of a large batch, originally hired by BR, then bought. They all had numbers suggesting 'Big 4' origins, despite not being on the books in 1948. Apart from these Warflats, there were Warwells and Ramp Wagons (the latter being formed as Twin-Bolsters). Most curious were low flats on 6-wheel bogies, that had been built for the M6 Heavy Tank; these became Flat ELL, MLL and WLL. The Western ones served to carry 65t ingot moulds to Ravenscraig.

[hmrspaul]

I have an extensive collection of Warflat photos taken during the past 50 years. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/warflat

 

They are a very valuable addition to the model fleet - especially as Bachmann have also announced they are doing the WW1 version in addition to the WW2. They refer to PARROT for the WW1 - correctly but a bit confusingly as PARROT was a completely different war wagon in WW2 and that code name continued in use on BR.

 

And this isn't just an old wagon. Yes, they didn't get the upgrade that the Warwells received, instead they were replaced by MODA. But such large numbers persisted that Aldwarke could purchase large numbers for internal use in c2014 (Mark what was the date?). .. and then there were the Coil Gs and Es which were widely spread. I appreciate they show some of the frame between the cradles but some scope I hope for rebuilds. And for those that don't want a specialist wagon type, then simply some were released to the engineers to use whatever they wanted a bogie flat to do.

 

Paul

PS I've given up with trying to get Hattons to use correct eras on their announcements - these don't look as wayward as many of their recent ones!

 

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

I have an extensive collection of Warflat photos taken during the past 50 years. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/warflat

 

They are a very valuable addition to the model fleet - especially as Bachmann have also announced they are doing the WW1 version in addition to the WW2. They refer to PARROT for the WW1 - correctly but a bit confusingly as PARROT was a completely different war wagon in WW2 and that code name continued in use on BR.

 

And this isn't just an old wagon. Yes, they didn't get the upgrade that the Warwells received, instead they were replaced by MODA. But such large numbers persisted that Aldwarke could purchase large numbers for internal use in c2014 (Mark what was the date?). .. and then there were the Coil Gs and Es which were widely spread. I appreciate they show some of the frame between the cradles but some scope I hope for rebuilds. And for those that don't want a specialist wagon type, then simply some were released to the engineers to use whatever they wanted a bogie flat to do.

 

Paul

PS I've given up with trying to get Hattons to use correct eras on their announcements - these don't look as wayward as many of their recent ones!

 

 

 

 

Cheers Paul - informative as always! It isnt just Hattons with the era issues either....when did the MODAs appear? If these continued in MOD use in to the 70s then what livery were they carrying by then? Do seem to remember seeing them loaded with Landies and trailers....

 

Coil E is certainly on my list.... will have a look again at your photos, the two hoods ought to be straightforwards but as you say what else is visible?

 

[Mark Saunders]

25 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

 

And this isn't just an old wagon. Yes, they didn't get the upgrade that the Warwells received, instead they were replaced by MODA. But such large numbers persisted that Aldwarke could purchase large numbers for internal use in c2014 (Mark what was the date?). .. and then there were the Coil Gs and Es which were widely spread. I appreciate they show some of the frame between the cradles but some scope I hope for rebuilds. And for those that don't want a specialist wagon type, then simply some were released to the engineers to use whatever they wanted a bogie flat to do.

 

Paul

 

 

Paul

 

I had to resort to using your site for the date August the 8th 2015, these are from the Bicester internal fleet. The use of internal wagons by the MoD has declined since the1990's and as such disposal of the Warflats to Aldwarke,

 

More recently Scunthorpe acquired some of the Shildon built air braked flats and refurbished wells for internal use.

 

The disposal of MoD stock allowed at least two van chassis off Palvans to be used as doners for chalk tipplers by Rugby Cement at Barrington! There are three of the more recent rebodies at Rocks by Rail at Cottesmore built on MSV chassis!

 

Mark

 

 

[Fat Controller]

There were 81 of these vehicles returned to the UK from BAOR via the Channel Tunnel, These had been fitted with Y25 bogies and air-brakes, as well as side-extensions to the deck to allow them to carry post-Centurion MBTs. They had to be transported by road in the UK, due to the loading gauge. Most ended up at various MoD sites as internal users, but two were cut down to UK loading gauge at E G Steele. I wonder what became of them?

[hmrspaul]

4 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

Cheers Paul - informative as always! It isnt just Hattons with the era issues either....when did the MODAs appear? If these continued in MOD use in to the 70s then what livery were they carrying by then? Do seem to remember seeing them loaded with Landies and trailers....

 

Coil E is certainly on my list.... will have a look again at your photos, the two hoods ought to be straightforwards but as you say what else is visible?

 

What do you mean when did the MODA appear - simply with the introduction of TOPS codes? They remained until replaced by the AB version - photos in colour on the website.

 

Paul

 

[Phil Bullock]

12 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

What do you mean when did the MODA appear - simply with the introduction of TOPS codes? They remained until replaced by the AB version - photos in colour on the website.

 

Paul

 

 

My assumption - dangerous I know - is that the MODAs were new build. Is that correct?

Suspect the ease of conversion of the Bachmann model to coil wagon will be determined by ease of removal of the planked deck.....

 

Phil

[bigherb]

That Cromwell looks very plastic. Hope it's better in the flesh.

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, bigherb said:

That Cromwell looks very plastic. Hope it's better in the flesh.

I raised that at Warley last year but got no response. A quick coat of matt varnish will hopefully sort the sheen. 

[truffy]

2 hours ago, bigherb said:

That Cromwell looks very plastic. Hope it's better in the flesh.

 

6 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I raised that at Warley last year but got no response. A quick coat of matt varnish will hopefully sort the sheen. 

 

Alternatively, Airfix have a 1:76 Cromwell kit that might look better.

[Steamport Southport]

Does anyone know when they changed the green liveries? Even a vague date will do.

 

I understand the Khaki was wartime, but when did the "bronze green" come into usage? I'm assuming it was some point between 1944 and the early 1950s.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

32 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

 

Alternatively, Airfix have a 1:76 Cromwell kit that might look better.

 

Yep. Decent kit as well. I bought a couple to see if they were suitable for potentially putting on the Hattons warwells. 

 

 

https://www.airfix.com/uk-en/cromwell-mkiv-tank-starter-set-1-76.html

 

 

 

Jason

[Mark Saunders]

5 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

My assumption - dangerous I know - is that the MODAs were new build. Is that correct?

Suspect the ease of conversion of the Bachmann model to coil wagon will be determined by ease of removal of the planked deck.....

 

Phil

 

MODA is only a prefix used on the existing wagons when renumbered under TOPS in 1973, any wagon running on the mainline in 1973 will have received such .

 

New build Airbraked flats (as in the one being done by Cavalex) being introduced in 1976 in two batches.

 

The genesis of these is a 40 ton Parrot introduced in WWl (forthcoming Bachmann model) and uprated to 45 ton for WWll.

 

The Bachman offering is the final version which is 50 ton.

 

Mark Saunders

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks Mark

 

So these are correct until mid 70s then....if versions carrying Cromwells are era 3 and 4 what was livery by 60s?

 

Phil

[markw]

3 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Thanks Mark

 

So these are correct until mid 70s then....if versions carrying Cromwells are era 3 and 4 what was livery by 60s?

 

Phil

The WD would have been replaced by Army.

https://images.app.goo.gl/dMZ6bbYiUKmUmGA58

[Phil Bullock]

48 minutes ago, markw said:

The WD would have been replaced by Army.

https://images.app.goo.gl/dMZ6bbYiUKmUmGA58

 

Cheers

 

So for era 6 - Bronze green - replace WD with ARMY and there we go. Many thanks....

 

 

[john dew]

Any idea what the formation transfers are on the Cromwell on the Khaki warflat?

 

 

[JSpencer]

8 hours ago, john dew said:

Any idea what the formation transfers are on the Cromwell on the Khaki warflat?

 

 

 

If it is the first warflat in Rails photo, the Cromwell (CS or Close support version) seems to have the 11th Armoured division markings. They would have been attached to an HQ regiment and would have been called up to provide direct smoke and high explosive support faster than calling up artillery.

By the time of Normandy, most divisions passed the CS tanks onto the Czechs with the HQ units keeping to Sherman's (few were impressed with Cromwells as battle tanks but they were popular in recon units).

The 11th later received Comets (successor to the Cromwell, basically Cromwell F type hull with a new turret and bigger gun, Bachmann have done a D type hull). Matchbox (now Revel) did a Comet tank kit in 1/76th than can be used on Warflats as well.   

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by JSpencer

[gwrrob]

The Kernow Models newsletter today suggests the BR liveried version [38-727] will be first to arrive on Monday.

[john dew]

4 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

If it is the first warflat in Rails photo, the Cromwell (CS or Close support version) seems to have the 11th Armoured division markings. They would have been attached to an HQ regiment and would have been called up to provide direct smoke and high explosive support faster than calling up artillery.

By the time of Normandy, most divisions passed the CS tanks onto the Czechs with the HQ units keeping to Sherman's (few were impressed with Cromwells as battle tanks but they were popular in recon units).

The 11th later received Comets (successor to the Cromwell, basically Cromwell F type hull with a new turret and bigger gun, Bachmann have done a D type hull). Matchbox (now Revel) did a Comet tank kit in 1/76th than can be used on Warflats as well.   

 

 

Thank you for that very informative and helpful reply.

 

As it happens I have a , as yet unbadged, millicast Comet  on a LMS warwell.........my plan was to create a short train... two warflats with Cromwells and the warwell plus a brake and carriage.......hopefully this isnt too unrealistic?  To stretch the imagination further my layout, Granby, is based near Wrexham in 1948. 11th Armoured , according to Wikipedia, was disbanded in 1946 and not reformed until 1950.

 

There are already far bigger discrepancies from reality on Granby so I am not too hung up about this but would welcome any suggestions for a semi convincing legend. Would it help to re-badge the Cromwells I have transfers for most of the 1945 era Armoured divisions?

 

Kind regards

 

John

 

 

[hmrspaul]

21 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

Cheers

 

So for era 6 - Bronze green - replace WD with ARMY and there we go. Many thanks....

 

 

I thought you were asking about the mid 1970s? Then they are MODA see diag PF001A on the Barrowmoremrg site. And also the photo collection I keep referring to! in the number range 95131 - 95230 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/e7857e86

[Phil Bullock]

56 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

I thought you were asking about the mid 1970s? Then they are MODA see diag PF001A on the Barrowmoremrg site. And also the photo collection I keep referring to! in the number range 95131 - 95230 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/e7857e86

 

71 - 72 Paul - predates Moda IIRC?

 

 

[JSpencer]

On 06/09/2019 at 17:02, john dew said:

 

Thank you for that very informative and helpful reply.

 

As it happens I have a , as yet unbadged, millicast Comet  on a LMS warwell.........my plan was to create a short train... two warflats with Cromwells and the warwell plus a brake and carriage.......hopefully this isnt too unrealistic?  To stretch the imagination further my layout, Granby, is based near Wrexham in 1948. 11th Armoured , according to Wikipedia, was disbanded in 1946 and not reformed until 1950.

 

There are already far bigger discrepancies from reality on Granby so I am not too hung up about this but would welcome any suggestions for a semi convincing legend. Would it help to re-badge the Cromwells I have transfers for most of the 1945 era Armoured divisions?

 

Kind regards

 

John

 

 

 

Post war army organisation was, best said, a very different organusation to that of WWII.

Post war markings themselves were an evolution of the WWII markings and generaly they smaller more discreet variants. The layout could be best described as simpler evolution. The US white star was long gone by 1949.

Many Cromwells were moth balled by this time (some were in use by recon units, but Centurions were the MBT now with Comets in reserve), you could pretend some - still carrying their WWII markings - have just been plucked out of storage to be transferred to somewhere.

[gwrrob]

Reading a review on these in Hornby Magazine, apparently the Cromwell is fixed to the deck using magnets.