Bachmann announce Class 90 (OO)

[cal.n]

Wow, very interesting.

 

IIRC, only high end Zimo decoders have a servo control function. Bachmann must then be either making a specialised decoder or just using a function (lighting output) to act as a trigger for a separate board powered directly from the track that drives the servo with finer PWM control than the decoder itself. This way, the function output could be synchronised with a sound. The recommended decoders on the Hattons page just says a 21pin V4 or Hatton's own 21pin.

 

How much current does a small servo draw? I can only assume it's enough for Bachmann's own DCC systems to handle.

 

Looking at the CADS on the Hattons site. I cannot see how they would position the servo without it being seen when up. Maybe a linear servo that would move the middle joint up and down.

[298]

Are the servo-motored pans optional? 

 

My locos are for display only. I have got a DCC controller so could wire up a track to raise and lower the pan for the fun of it but, all in all, I'd rather not be 'forced' to have this feature (I'm guessing it will raise - ho-ho - the price considerably).

 

Have I missed somewhere if this is an option, or not?

 

As with previous releases where someone has complained that the loco number they want only has DCC sound (or vice versa), I'm sure they'll be a trade in the swapping of bits...

 

There seems to be some confusion as to the use for this servo- as with continental models and a few scratchbuilt mechanisms over here, I'd expect it to pull down on the lower arm using fine thread, when raised there is enough slack in this connection for the pantograph to perform as normal.

[ThaneofFife]

Bachmann look like they have come up with a superb rendition of the pan with the compromise of the very thin extra support arm.  It looks robust and certainly under a low contact wire setting that extra arm will really hardly be sticking out like a sore thumb.  Looks good.

 

I dont see any of those posters who were constantly getting in on the wishlisting threads saying that "Electrics dont sell".  Sorry chaps but it seems its now the turn of the Electrics to get some of the spotlight with all these great new models coming through.   Roll on an accurate Class 86 (how about a brand new bodyshell and pantograph Heljan?)

[Gerald Henriksen]

The servo operated pan was a surprise. Guessing the 119 estimated price tag has gone out the window

 

I suspect that the 4+ years since announcement and the changes in the real world since then would have thrown retailer estimates out the window anyway.

[Roy Langridge]

I think it will be north of £250 per loco. Fancy DCC bits are nice but what's the point if you have made something that 90% of railway modelers can't afford.

I suspect the point will be that they make more profit from the 10% than they do whatever portion of the 90% would have bought a lower spec model.

 

Roy

[James Makin]

Really looking forward to this - re the servo-controlled pantograph, great idea, and at a time of prices going through the roof, and when you start to question value for money, it's genuinely nice to see 'surprise and delight' features like this on the 90 and similarly the lighting on the Mk2fs!

 

The second arm on the pantograph isn't a problem for me personally - I've been running the old Hornby metal pantographs for years, once weathered up they look the part, far better this option than a flimsy plastic job on the Hornby '92's for example, which as mentioned above, is sprung so badly you just can't use under real layout catenary! I can only hope Hornby will take notice and equip their '87' with something similarly robust!

 

Cheers,

James

[Fenman]

That's not good for the turnover figures however.

 

I remember an article in RM 20 years ago by a model shop owner saying they make a living by selling 200 items at £1 profit not 20 items at £10 profit.

Well, yes, except that for the last few years Hornby has been selling things at a *loss*, not a £1 profit.

 

And as a Plc, unlike your shopkeeper friend they are under intense pressure to "maximise shareholder value" - wretched business-speak for making as much money as possible.

 

Chalk and cheese...

 

Paul

[Phil Parker]

That's not good for the turnover figures however.

 

I remember an article in RM 20 years ago by a model shop owner saying they make a living by selling 200 items at £1 profit not 20 items at £10 profit.

 

That was one person, 20 years ago. The statement may not even have any actual numbers behind it - a bit like your guess that the model with be £250 and 90% of modellers can't afford it. Bachmann hasn't talked prices and no-one has any definite figures for what modellers can (or chose to) afford. For the moment, it's all guesswork.

 

Calm down, it's up to them to produce a model that will sell and turn a profit and chatting to the R&D people, they are fully aware that modellers pockets aren't infinitely deep. A lot of these features are designed to add "play value" well in excess of the additional cost and planning them in at an early stage means you can buy components in bulk. Servos, for example, can be bought individually for £3.57 retail. When David H rings up someone in China and orders a couple of thousand (and thay are buying the servo in, no point in re-inventing the wheel as we were told), he'll get a rather better price.

 

On the turnover point though, a well-known saying is, "Turnover is ego. Profit is sanity. Cash is reality."  You can sell lots of models at a loss (massive turnover). Selling less but with each one making a profit means you can pay your bill at Tesco.

[wombatofludham]

"90% of railway modellers can't afford"

​90% of railway modellers probably wouldn't be buying the 90 anyway.  In any case, how do you know what the average disposable income is of the average AC electric modeller? 

 

As it happens, I've been putting money into my savings account every month to be ready for the Class 158 and 90 when they finally hit the shelves.  At the moment, thanks to the long gestation, I can probably afford to buy the whole Intercity allocation of Class 90s even if it goes north of £300...

[jjb1970]

There are people who can afford whatever the manufacturers ask for, let's be honest, just as there are those who are already struggling. There are those who can afford pretty much what the manufacturers ask by buying less (I get amused by those who complain of outrageous prices then tell me about the 30 locomotives they have on pre-order and the 28 they've already bought this year). There are plenty of ways to manage this, you can save up (an outdated concept I know), buy less, buy second hand and more. Note, I'm not saying that price is not a legitimate issue and whether or not we consider a model to be worth the price is a very individual decision which does not have to have anything to do with whether or not we can afford it (I've declined to buy several models which I was perfectly able to afford because I felt they were over priced for what they were) but we just have to accept that the price is what it is.

 

On the 90, great to see progress, the CAD looks first class in most respects however I really do not like the pantograph arrangement. As we've discussed at length on the Hornby 87 thread, it is probably just not possible to do the BW pan without compromising somewhere but to me it is such a characteristic feature of those trains which use it that I find addition of the additional arm destroys the illusion we try to create when modelling.

Edited July 8, 2017 by jjb1970

[Phil Parker]

​90% of railway modellers probably wouldn't be buying the 90 anyway. 

 

True enough. However, there are lots of modellers interested in Birdcage Stock and Mk2f's simply because of the quality of models produced. Bachmann is carving out a niche as the quality end of the hobby because it seems to work. All the features add perceived value for money which seems to liberate cash from people's pockets. 

[Legend]

That was one person, 20 years ago. The statement may not even have any actual numbers behind it - a bit like your guess that the model with be £250 and 90% of modellers can't afford it. Bachmann hasn't talked prices and no-one has any definite figures for what modellers can (or chose to) afford. For the moment, it's all guesswork.

 

Calm down, it's up to them to produce a model that will sell and turn a profit and chatting to the R&D people, they are fully aware that modellers pockets aren't infinitely deep. A lot of these features are designed to add "play value" well in excess of the additional cost and planning them in at an early stage means you can buy components in bulk. Servos, for example, can be bought individually for £3.57 retail. When David H rings up someone in China and orders a couple of thousand (and thay are buying the servo in, no point in re-inventing the wheel as we were told), he'll get a rather better price.

 

On the turnover point though, a well-known saying is, "Turnover is ego. Profit is sanity. Cash is reality." You can sell lots of models at a loss (massive turnover). Selling less but with each one making a profit means you can pay your bill at Tesco.

It does of course depend on the drop off of sales v the increased profit per model , one has to compensate for the other, which might be tricky for a model shop proprietor. If the hobby becomes so expensive that folk don't even go into model shops because the models they see at exhibitions are so pricey, then the model shop owner is stuffed. On the other hand if these features have such a wow factor that everyone thinks they must have one his footfall will go up. It is a tricky one to predict . It's also quite brave given the current economic forecasts and the drop in disposable income.

 

It is interesting though, I think we can see some blue water emerging in the market. Bachmann are clearly going for the top end, models crammed full of functionality and gimmicks but with high price and probably lower volume . Hornby at the moment are some way behind in functionality, but producing models at reasonable costs (I'm basing that on Rails discounted price of £130 for the forthcoming 87) maybe trying to appeal to more of the market, considering their past history of being more trainset orientated. But again does that market still exist , is there a market for Railroad style models? I really don't know. It maybe that the hobby is morphing into a dwindling number of serious modellers who are prepared to pay any price for detail and those with a casual interest and more price sensitive discouraged.

 

I'd hate to be a model shop owner at the moment . And as was pointed out , cash is very important, remember they have to stock these high spec/priced models , so they pay for them up front in the hope they sell them. I wouldn't like figuring out how many Fully digital mk2fs I should buy in the hope of selling them at £65 a go, or should you go for the non DCC ones at £42, which ones will be more popular? Get it wrong and your stuck with expensive stock on your shelves or not having enough and driving your clientele to the box shifters.

 

Then there's the DCC v DC conundrum . That's another dynamic.All these DCC features make the product more complicated (look at the discussion on CV values to get performance on DJM 71) and of course more expensive. Again possibly appealing to the top end of the market , although not necessarily.

 

As a bystander it's interesting which way this is going to go ,but if I were a model shop proprietor I'd be deeply worried.just too many dynamics, including the overall economic situation to figure out at the moment. Is it any wonder they are disappearing from town and city centres . No where to buy Railway models in central Glasgow now. Edit . Actually today I found some Hornby in Hamleys , but at a price

Edited July 8, 2017 by Legend

[rob D2]

Anybody can afford anything - it's called saving. If you really want one, you'll find a way.

 

Personally I can't see it in the £250 zone, I'd be in for about £170.

 

I'm tempted to build a plank with OHLEjust so I can get one of these !

[UMinion]

That's not good for the turnover figures however.

I remember an article in RM 20 years ago by a model shop owner saying they make a living by selling 200 items at £1 profit not 20 items at £10 profit.

Does that model shop still exist do you know?

[298]

Anybody can afford anything - it's called saving. If you really want one, you'll find a way.

Personally I can't see it in the £250 zone, I'd be in for about £170.

I'm tempted to build a plank with OHLEjust so I can get one of these !

If you come up with a realistic and workable plan, can you let me know? One of the reasons why I went to US modelling was I couldn't come up with a small plan to run fleet of British AC Electrics on.

 

Over time I acquired a fleet of Athearn 57' Reefers, but when better models came out the price difference meant I was looking at a 7:1 trade in ratio to upgrade. I brought a few, but fundamentally only as many as I needed, instead of nearly a whole train's worth. Based on that ratio, and the fact that at a show recently someone exhibiting a large OHLE layout was selling a few nicely detailed Hornby 90s for £40, I'd expect to pay a premium price for a new 90 (and alot more than the current £89 rrp that Hornby ask for a better livery on locos that I brought for £15...)

Edited July 8, 2017 by 298

[rob D2]

If you come up with a realistic and workable plan, can you let me know? One of the reasons why I went to US modelling was I couldn't come up with a small plan to run fleet of British AC Electrics on.

Over time I acquired a fleet of Athearn 57' Reefers, but when better models came out the price difference meant I was looking at a 7:1 trade in ratio to upgrade. I brought a few, but fundamentally only as many as I needed, instead of nearly a whole train's worth. Based on that ratio, and the fact that at a show recently someone exhibiting a large OHLE layout was selling a few nicely detailed Hornby 90s for £40, I'd expect to pay a premium price for a new 90 (and alot more than the current £89 rrp that Hornby ask for a better livery on locos that I brought for £15...)

 

A small slice of bescot......both diesels and electrics.....and concrete

[James Makin]

A small slice of bescot......both diesels and electrics.....and concrete

Glad I kept my dodgy old Wells Green, new hi-spec 87s, 90s and 92s coming...party time!!

[Roy Langridge]

That's not good for the turnover figures however.

 

I remember an article in RM 20 years ago by a model shop owner saying they make a living by selling 200 items at £1 profit not 20 items at £10 profit.

I run a business and don't pay much attention to turnover. Cash flow definitely and profit. Turnover is pretty meaningless.

 

Roy

Edited July 9, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[YesTor]

On the turnover point though, a well-known saying is, "Turnover is ego. Profit is sanity. Cash is reality."  You can sell lots of models at a loss (massive turnover). Selling less but with each one making a profit means you can pay your bill at Tesco.

 

Absolutely.  Turnover means nothing.  It's the final profit figure that really matters.

[YesTor]

On the 90, great to see progress, the CAD looks first class in most respects however I really do not like the pantograph arrangement. As we've discussed at length on the Hornby 87 thread, it is probably just not possible to do the BW pan without compromising somewhere but to me it is such a characteristic feature of those trains which use it that I find addition of the additional arm destroys the illusion we try to create when modelling.

 

Agreed.  If the 'fictitious' additional arm is only required in order to operate the servo mechanism, then quite frankly I'd rather do without the fancy pantograph gubbins and opt for accuracy over gimmickery everytime.  I realize that we have only seen CADs at this stage and the pre-production model is yet to be seen, but I sincerely hope that Bachmann aren't opting for fancy motorised extras at the expense of general detail, and in this respect I echo my thoughts as per the Mk 2f coaches, where we have digitized interior lighting, yet moulded-on grab rails and detail.  A somewhat bizarre priority methinks.  Time will tell...

[rob D2]

Glad I kept my dodgy old Wells Green, new hi-spec 87s, 90s and 92s coming...party time!!

 

You were ahead of the trend.......back of the net !

[159220]

I don't know is this point helpful. But looking at Bachmann's previous version of the BW pantograph on the Class 350, and compare that to a similar model from Hornby at the time, say the Class 395. The Bachmann one is far more robust, sprung and does not snap whenever raised. The Class 350 had the additional 'arm' to allow for the panto to be sprung. Clearly there is a trade off between usability and prototypical look. Certainly the CAD of the Class 90 panto seems to be an evolution and refinement of the Class 350 which works. 

[MGR Hooper!]

I don't know is this point helpful. But looking at Bachmann's previous version of the BW pantograph on the Class 350, and compare that to a similar model from Hornby at the time, say the Class 395. The Bachmann one is far more robust, sprung and does not snap whenever raised. The Class 350 had the additional 'arm' to allow for the panto to be sprung. Clearly there is a trade off between usability and prototypical look. Certainly the CAD of the Class 90 panto seems to be an evolution and refinement of the Class 350 which works. 

* post removed *

 

- misunderstood the quoted post and it seems to have caused confusion and some unnecessary remarks.

Edited July 10, 2017 by MGR Hooper!

[159220]

I disagree. Hornby's pantographs are fragile and flimsy plastic. I cannot remember how many spare Hornby ones I have bought for the Class 395. The last one broke when I merely tried to raise it! They are un-useable under a wire. My point was, not comparing the in-house Hitachi designed pantograph with the BW on the Siemens Desiro. But the two different paths taken by the model manufacturers. Both attempts at modern pantographs have had their compromises, though both do capture the 'look' of the pantograph. For me personally, as a modeller, I want to be able to use my pantograph under the wire - I cannot see how you could prototypically run an electric locomotive or MU not under a wire. By all accounts, the CAD of the Class 90 pantograph not only captures the prototype well, but is also useable. Compare that to CAD and EPs of the Class 800 from Hornby and I think I shall buy a pack of spare pantographs to go with it - or as the prototype, ban it from operating with panto up under the wire! 

 

Anyway, an academic argument, as aren't you a N gauge enthusiast? 

[Roy Langridge]

Here we go again, we had all this discussion in the 87 thread. Two different groups striving for two different things: a scale model of the prototype versus a working pan. It seems to me these two points of view will never meet.

 

Neither is more important than the other and we just need to accept that the manufacturers will choose the path that they consider offers their best chance of sales

 

Roy