Hornby king

[Ozexpatriate]

One dreadful year must not obscure a decade of 'such things as dreams are made of'. Remember the Triang/Rovex years?

Alas,we have short memories.Please let's put things in perspective,

Ian, you made a lot of great points in your post and I agree, perspective is important and we do have short memories.

 

Having said that, sadly, Hornby has had more than one dreadful year and based on my purchases have not yet shown any signs of having turned the corner.

 

I remain disappointed by assembly-related quality problems with my Castle (an otherwise fine model, which arrived three years ago after a long delay of two additional years post announcement) and assembly quality and cosmetic problems with the Star.

 

As a simple example of assembly/quality issues I'd like to ask an open question: Has anyone recently purchased a GWR 4-6-0 from Hornby with a horizontal fall plate?

 

If STEAM were to commission N^o. 6000 (in 1927 condition for example) I would want to support them but I feel "snake-bit" (as the expression goes) about Hornby GWR models right now.

 

I have Caerphilly Castle on order. (I can't pass it up.) That will be a good indicator of whether there is a material improvement in build quality.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

I am not saying that Hornby are doomed with this model (if true), but rather with the hits their reputation has taken in the last several years (lack of stock on shelves, models with poor design choices, etc.) how much of the market that this model is actually aimed at will choose Hornby over Hattons/DJM?

Even assuming a Hornby King will be produced, the fact of the matter is that we don't know precisely what to expect from either supplier.

 

I think we are crossing the threshold where pre-buying (rather than waiting for magazine reviews or seeing models in shops) is becoming the dominant purchasing mode - particularly for this model commissioned either by Hattons or STEAM.

 

Dave Jones has delivered excellent models for his former employer and I look forward to hearing about his stand a little more than a week from now but he has a challenge covering details in the King with the terrific range of livery choices Hattons is offering to the level which we have come to anticipate.

 

Hornby's recent track record with GWR locomotives is sub-par compared with what we know they are capable of doing.

 

We don't yet know when either model might appear.

 

Trust is an essential component in pre-buying a commissioned item and I think we're flying blind here.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[JSpencer]

To be honest, the King is a popular loco and Hornby are an established big model railway company.

 

Assuming it is a king (most likely now) then at this time we don't know what quality it will be and equally, nor how much it will cost. Regardless of how it turns out, Hornby will certainly sell plenty and for many years to come simply because it is a popular loco and Hornby are an established big model railway company! 

 

Hattons best bet will be to wait a few months to see what happens there. Their model will need to be better quality than Hornby otherwise there is little point to the project. They may or may not be cheaper - but here it is better quality that will make them sales at the end of the day and the only way they will know that will be once details of the Hornby one become known.

[Horsetan]

In case you need a really big hint, Hornby have updated their facebook cover picture to a picture of Elvis Presley.

Yes, but in Hornby's case we can't quite be sure if or when he might leave the building.

 

Those who really want him will soon be asking for a little less conversation, a little more action, please. We can't build our dreams with suspicious minds.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Horsetan

[Ian Hargrave]

To be honest, the King is a popular loco and Hornby are an established big model railway company.

 

Assuming it is a king (most likely now) then at this time we don't know what quality it will be and equally, nor how much it will cost. Regardless of how it turns out, Hornby will certainly sell plenty and for many years to come simply because it is a popular loco and Hornby are an established big model railway company! 

 

Hattons best bet will be to wait a few months to see what happens there. Their model will need to be better quality than Hornby otherwise there is little point to the project. They may or may not be cheaper - but here it is better quality that will make them sales at the end of the day and the only way they will know that will be once details of the Hornby one become known.

Considering Hornby's present precarious position,you are I am afraid,making assumptions which may not materialise.

In any case,Hattons have already cast their net upon the waters in providing their own market .They know exactly what the state if the market is and have a proven successful record in this respect.They can and no doubt will retail both their own DJM version and ,if it materialises,Hornby's too..They did this with their own commission 10000/10001,selling alongside Bachmann's production.

To wait and see is not an option in this day and age.In life,as in business ,there are but two types.....the quick and the dead.

 

Hattons and Kernow are in this respect the glue that's holding the construct of manufacturer and retailer together now.

Retailers need shelves filled with new ,not recycled products. Having the boldness and initiative to go out there and finance your own produce is one way of keeping the trade afloat rather than waiting for it to appear from neverland.

[7013]

If, (and I am not at all conviced) Hornby are planning a King there are certain observations to be made. Firstly Hornby's prices for their 'best' locos are already in the region of £ 140-150, therefore if they are going head to head on quality with the DJM/Hattons model their best is still not up to the (potential) DJM/H model. One must assume then that an equivalent Hornby loco would be much more than the £167 being asked by Hattons.

Next observation is that Dave I believe will consult with the modeller and be open to suggestion in order to get the perfect King. Hornby never consult the modeller, so it would be a case of take it or leave it.. Hornby are well known for dragging up old models and releasing them when a newly tooled updated model is about to hit the stores in an attempt to get a few sales on the back of the new model. Hornby could release a new model as stated before in the Star/ DOG quality range, they would inevitably get a few sales from people who are feeling the pinch and cannot afford £167. The latter would be no bad thing but I suspect those of us who really want the best King possible will be willing to wait for the Hattons version. I have committed to the DJM/ Hattons loco because I trust Dave to get it right and Hattons for their excellent service, I lost my trust in Hornby a long time ago and until I see the fruits of their reorganisation I will not be throwing my cash their way.

[JSpencer]

Considering Hornby's present precarious position,you are I am afraid,making assumptions which may not materialise.

In any case,Hattons have already cast their net upon the waters in providing their own market .They know exactly what the state if the market is and have a proven successful record in this respect.They can and no doubt will retail both their own DJM version and ,if it materialises,Hornby's too..They did this with their own commission 10000/10001,selling alongside Bachmann's production.

To wait and see is not an option in this day and age.In life,as in business ,there are but two types.....the quick and the dead.

 

Hattons and Kernow are in this respect the glue that's holding the construct of manufacturer and retailer together now.

Retailers need shelves filled with new ,not recycled products. Having the boldness and initiative to go out there and finance your own produce is one way of keeping the trade afloat rather than waiting for it to appear from neverland.

I base my assumptions on the following. Everything I ordered new from Hornby in 2013 and before has arrived except for the fully detailed P2 which will be soon, so they have 21 months max from annoucement to delivery, and they can be as low as 6 months. This is vast progress from what things were before 2013.

 

I will not say Hornby are not in a precarious situation, I will say that to me they are in a less precarious situation than what they were.

 

When I say Hattons should wait, it does not mean until end of 2015, just until the item is officially annouced (this month? end of the year?) and details of the model price/quality start to become known. That is a short waiting time. Remember the first one to the post will not neccissarily win (the 10000 project is an example this only it is the reverse of the King projects). I think that is common sense.  

 

Please note, I do not dispute that retailers should start to make their own products, it is even recommended given the shorter production runs and fewer products. I certainly agree to these initiatives and think that in the main they are healthy. But we should not write Hornby off either.

[Ian Hargrave]

If you read post 68 above you will see that I am far from writing Hornby off.But your post seems to imply that as Hornby are a larger company Hattons should give ground to them and not proceed with their own DJM edition.

 

Exactly how are they to manage that now ? Undoubtedly,contractual obligations and financial undertakings are already in hand in any case.There is a myth that a large organisation will succeed because it has greater resources and clout.

In this world,the crucial factor is control of the manufacturing process,.In that respect,the saying 'small is beautiful' holds good.For example,consider Jason and Rapido Trains.

Hattons have been in business a very long time and need no lessons from us in their commercial decisions,besides which they,like the rest of us ,have no real clue as to what Hornby's decisions will be.

Finally note that model railways are only a part of the Hornby conglomerate..

Edited September 4, 2014 by Ian Hargrave

[Legend]

I think the price of Hornbys big engines is a tad north of £150. 7013. However I wouldn't be surprised if when fully costed the Hornby model matches Daves price or under cuts it by a tenner!

 

I think you are correct though, what will distinguish the models is input from the modeller , particularly rmweb where Dave clearly does listen. Hornby says it does and makes all the right noises, but I still don't see huge interaction.

 

Certainly Hattons/Dave are offering a huge variety of models , whereas I suspect Hornby will only offer 2 or 3 at most.

 

So this is going to be interesting . My feeling is that Hornby are too late and that smaller more agile suppliers are the way of the future. But who knows. Hornby do seem to have done rather well with their Railroad P2. Suppose the King is made to the same standard and price point? That might stir it up a bit.

 

Truly fascinating! Maybe I should get out more

Edited September 4, 2014 by Legend

[Coach bogie]

Dave I believe will consult with the modeller and be open to suggestion in order to get the perfect King. Hornby never consult the modeller, so it would be a case of take it or leave it.. Hornby are well known for dragging up old models and releasing them when a newly tooled updated model is about to hit the stores in an attempt to get a few sales on the back of the new model. Hornby could release a new model as stated before in the Star/ DOG quality range, they would inevitably get a few sales from people who are feeling the pinch and cannot afford £167. The latter would be no bad thing but I suspect those of us who really want the best King possible will be willing to wait for the Hattons version. I have committed to the DJM/ Hattons loco because I trust Dave to get it right and Hattons for their excellent service, I lost my trust in Hornby a long time ago and until I see the fruits of their reorganisation I will not be throwing my cash their way.

 

I hear what you are saying but Dave can listen/read all our comments but do not forget Hatton’s is Dave's customer not us. As the price has already been set, unless Hatton’s agree to every comment made by the end user his hands will be tied.

 

In a similar way, if there is a Hornby King in development, and it has been commissioned by Steam, again Steam is Hornby's customer not us and the same rules apply.

 

I will be in the market for another King as I have one kit build that is getting a bit tired and this will be a quick fix solution. But I am not rushing to purchase a Hatton’s King as not only are there no physical details of the King yet, personally, I have not seen any other model from DJM either. I do not purchase any goods, railways or otherwise based on hype. The same applies to Hornby. I have just taken delivery of a P2 after I had actually seen one. 

 

If there is a King from Steam, and it is as good as the Star, I will no doubt buy one out of loyalty to Steam and what they are trying to achieve. I do not classify myself as someone 'feeling the pinch' but buys what he likes. You are clearly not a Hornby fan but I do not accept your negative generalisation that Hornby's only customers only buy their products as it is all they can afford.

 

When I see something from DJM I will be able to form an opinion of what I am going to receive and will probably buy one as well out of support for Hatton’s. My first model, a Bristol Castle came from Hatton’s, four months before I was born, and it is still running. (My father had no doubt the baby would be a boy - always the optimist)

 

Until I have sufficient evidence of what I will be receiving from either supplier, my money stays in the bank. If they are sold out so be it.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Metr0Land]

In case you need a really big hint, Hornby have updated their facebook cover picture to a picture of Elvis Presley.

 

So are they saying it's dead?

[gwrrob]

So are they saying it's dead?

1977 I believe. Thank you very much.

[Captain Kernow]

I think there are too many GWR 4-6-0s out there already, especially with the DJM announcement of a King for Hattons! 

 

That's my opinion...

 

What I would like to see, however, is still royalty - a king of sorts...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that is... that King of Pannier Tanks - the 94XX....  

[Adams442T]

After carefully examining the Hornby cover photo I have come to the conclusion that it is not 'The King', but rather a poor replica bearing only the faintest resemblance to the original.

 

Apart from that many of the rivets on the outer extremities appear to be in the wrong place........................................

[Coldgunner]

Great Bear anyone?

[Captain Kernow]

Great Bear anyone?

Too chilly at night to disrobe now...

[JSpencer]

If you read post 68 above you will see that I am far from writing Hornby off.But your post seems to imply that as Hornby are a larger company Hattons should give ground to them and not proceed with their own DJM edition.

Exactly how are they to manage that now ? Undoubtedly,contractual obligations and financial undertakings are already in hand in any case.There is a myth that a large organisation will succeed because it has greater resources and clout.

In this world,the crucial factor is control of the manufacturing process,.In that respect,the saying 'small is beautiful' holds good.For example,consider Jason and Rapido Trains.

Hattons have been in business a very long time and need no lessons from us in their commercial decisions,besides which they,like the rest of us ,have no real clue as to what Hornby's decisions will be.

Finally note that model railways are only a part of the Hornby conglomerate..

Sorry I did not mean to imply that you were writing Hornby off. The word precarious is a very strong word were I live (France) which instantly strikes terror and conjures up images of walking right on the cliff edge, one slight step in the wrong and you fall 400 ft. So my sentiment was that I do not think Hornby are in that bad a situation anyway...

 

Please Kindly note that I did not imply Hattons should back out, far from it. To my mind Hattons have completed the high level study and will be embarking on the detail design soon no doubt. So they should have time to find out what Hornby are doing and ensure theirs is better. Who knows, they are probably doing this right now. I do not doubt there prowess in business. My observation looking at the DJ King thread is that the customers for the Hattons one are practically all looking for the best King that can be done so clearly they would do well to ensure they have the King of the Kings. Maybe they observe the same and I am not trying to teach them to such eggs! merely stating what I feel on a forum, justify my arguments with observations I made.

 

I doubt Neither player wants to produce a product that is both more expensive and inferior.

 

I am sure The Hilton could probably do a better fast food restaurant than McDonalds, only the latter is located everywhere and a well known for fast food. People who heard about it and would want a burger from the Hilton, would want something better than Mcdonalds.

 

In the same breath most model shops cannot afford to tool up locos and need fresh products from manufacturers to sell as well and if most popular classes start becoming exclusives too, well they will be shut down over night. They will not survive on selling track pins and ballast.

[7013]

Mike post # 90 my first loco was Briistol Castle three rail Hornby Dublo and it still runs sweet as.

There are two observations to make.

1. Hattons have announced a King and are taking orders, they must have some sort of agreement/contract with DJM, I doubt they will cancel now.

2. Hornby have not announced a King be it with Steam museum or not, therefore this thread is basically speculation.

Until Hornby throw their hat in the ring we can only speculate and postulate. However given the specification of the Hattons model and the fact that Hornby have not made a loco to that spec before, to compete, it would take a big leap in quality and price for Hornby to get near, if they did get the loco out first that would be a small advantage, however a fair few people were happy to wait for the Bachmann 10000/1 even though the Dapol one was put much earlier. My guess would be the same situation would prevail in this case.

Oh I should have thanked 81C for his disagree, I know I am making a valid point if he disagrees with it.

[jjb1970]

I think (assuming Hornby are making a new King, still TBC...) then there is no reason both models cannot do well. I would expect both to be positioned differently in the market in several ways, Hattons will almost certainly make many more variants whereas the Hornby one will be much more widely available. On price, quality etc nobody knows how they will compare. Looking at SK's last blog it would appear that Hornby remain committed to their policy of compromising on certain features to control cost inflation for the long term. Looking at pre-release pictures of the Drummond 700 and D16/3 they do now seem to be getting a much better understanding of where to compromise and where to retain details. 

 

On current form we can expect a Hornby model to have a three pole motor, basic zinc alloy cut outs for bearings etc. There is no doubt this is a step backwards from their five pole skew wound motor etc but the more pertinent question is what effect does this have in the real world? From what I can see the real difference in performance is nothing like as significant as the noise about these changes around the forums. On detail, all we can do is speculate, but given that the existing King is not a bad model (although certainly it is basic next to current releases) it would be completely senseless for them or Steam to bankroll development of a new model unless it was better in a meaningful way unless they were going for a real down spec Railroad version. And I really cannot see Steam going for that.

 

On delivery, yes Hornby have had a dire period but they do seem to be turning a corner and all of the manufacturers have had issues with supply. On QC, call me very lucky but all of the Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol and Heljan models I've bought have been fine. From time to time models come with detached detail parts but they're easy to put back in place and it is pretty much inevitable that this will happen from time to time if we want these fine parts factory fitted. This could mean I am extraordinarily lucky or it may mean that the QC afflictions of all the manufacturers (and look at the different forums on this section and you see plenty of QC whinges about all the manufacturers) are perhaps not as bad as the Internet can make them appear. At the moment I see no evidence to support any suggestions that either the Hornby or DJ/Hattons version will be either less susceptible to QC issues or to development delays. 

 

On engagement, I do expect DJM to have far superior engagement with the public, that is something that DJ is particularly good at and he deserves our admiration for that. Equally, Hornby are no different to other large model suppliers in not inviting the sort of engagement that small niche players like DJ and Rapido do. Does that make these small players better? In some ways yes, but I really do not see it as a particular problem with the bigger players either.

 

On pre-order, I will wait and see. This may be a risk but I am happy to take the chance of missing out so that I can see what the models are like and then decide to buy. Given the number of variants being produced by Hattons and the past record of Hattons models I am really not worried about missing out by not pre-ordering. Ditto with Hornby, models may sell out very quickly but I still find that the models can still be bought without having to pre-order. Given that we have zero evidence on which will be better, how much the Hornby model will cost (and given things with China I'm taking the Hattons price with a pinch of salt at the moment) and when there are two competing models coming out I'd rather wait and see. 

 

Will I buy a King? Yes. More than one? Almost certainly. However I'll wait to judge which ones to buy once I see the models and really have no inherent leaning towards either Hornby or DJM as I have nothing against either and think both are worthy of our support.

[JaymzHatstand]

I await the next Hornby post of the same picture without 'Elvis' as the 'King has left the building' and by that they mean factory and is already here, Ray for the launch on the 13th. What a coup that would be if they'd managed todesign, produce and ship the model without anyone knowing!

 

That would really show us how a model launch should occur!

 

Of course I know that this is most unlikely, but I think we'll all agree it would be pretty darn impressive!

 

Cheers

 

J

[Horsetan]

So are they saying it's dead?

No, it's just resting. D'you think they'll do a version in Norwegian Blue?

 

After carefully examining the Hornby cover photo I have come to the conclusion that it is not 'The King', but rather a poor replica bearing only the faintest resemblance to the original.

 

Apart from that many of the rivets on the outer extremities appear to be in the wrong place........................................

Do you think this will lead to "tribute acts" from, er, GBL etc.? Edited September 4, 2014 by Horsetan

[Metr0Land]

No, it's just resting. D'you think they'll do a version in Norwegian Blue?

 

Do you think this will lead to "tribute acts" from, er, GBL etc.?

 

Funnily enough Elvis did  a pre-tribute before he popped his clogs.  "Love Me Tender"

 

 

Hat and coat on, door open.......

[RateTheFreight]

Excuse the ignorance, however have Hornby actually officially announced anything of is everyone making assumptions about what they will/won't/might do with a King (if indeed they do anything)?!?

 

I applaud the DJM Hattons commission and hope it sells well. Ultimately modellers will pay market rate for a top quality model, and anyway, it's their money to decide what to do with.

 

Personally however, I'm on a tight modelling budget and hope Hornby knock the existing Loco driven King model into the RailRoad range so a) I can afford it (compared to the prices ebay and co currently charge) and b) have the opportunity to have a bash at detailing myself.

 

I might be slated for the above view but quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

 

Greg

[G-BOAF]

Latest issue of 'the collector' (Hornby Collectors Club) has a BR Blue King as 6023 on the front, pretty sure it is an R3102 model.

Are they hinting at something, in which case the 'leak' from HRN might have been planned well before the DJM/Hattons announcement.

Other explanaiton is that the issue has an artical about preserved GWR Hornby locos, so could just be coincidence...

[Metr0Land]

Just thinking aloud here.  IMHO Hornby are going to announce a King as I don't think they'd run those teasers on their FB page simply to say 'April Fool' esp as it's several months away.

 

Assumptions are being made that the existing King could be dropped to the RR range (not unreasonable except when you look at Hornby's recent offerings there MAY be another alternative - we won't know until the announcement/s).

 

In the recent past we've had Tornado, DoG and P2 in RR and higher spec versions (P2 hi-spec still to reach the shops of course). The RR P2 has been met with very appreciative reviews on here (and Lord knows we're a tough bunch to please).  In my view the RR versions of DoG and Tornado have also been well received in terms of value for money.

 

We can only guess at where Hornby really are in terms of sorting their supply and manufacture but it occurs to me they might bring out a new King in differing levels of spec.  Although the old tools are fully written down there might be a better economic case for them have 2 or 3 versions of a wholly new King rather than a new hi-spec King and an old spec King?