Hinton Ampner

[emt_911]

I've been considering the main layout (baseboards to be built in the spring) and realised that if I want trains running on the main lines and also for me to be able to shunt the yards I would need to be able to automate the majority of the layout.

 

There are several systems that I could use but a fair bit of research is needed so that I can get it right first time and also get the baseboard construction right.

 

Any thoughts would be gratefully received.

[Andrew P]

I've been considering the main layout (baseboards to be built in the spring) and realised that if I want trains running on the main lines and also for me to be able to shunt the yards I would need to be able to automate the majority of the layout.

 

There are several systems that I could use but a fair bit of research is needed so that I can get it right first time and also get the baseboard construction right.

 

Any thoughts would be gratefully received.

I use and love Kadee's on my OO Duncan, but there not every body's cup of tea I know, but they work for me.

[emt_911]

I use and love Kadee's on my OO Duncan, but there not every body's cup of tea I know, but they work for me.

Kadee's are my solution for shunting and coupling as well Andy. I'm now trying to work out the best way to automate the rest of the layout.

 

There are quite a few solutions out there. I'm trying to get my head around the possibility of computer controlled routing, signalling and block detection solutions.

[skipepsi]

Sorry to dissent but I think build it first then decide if you want to automate parts of it. I would suggest get as far as laying the track and playing for a while then decide whether changes are needed before ballasting.

[Alister_G]

Hi Duncan,

 

One of the reasons I recently bought the NCE Powercab controller, was that NCE also make a thing called the Mini Panel, which can be used to create automated train movements comparitively simply.

 

see here for quite a long and detailed explanation:

 

 

The NCE can also be used with the free JMRI software (with the addition of a USB interface) which will run on PCs or tablets, to create even more complex automation, and also as a real time controller, so you could, for instance, create a signalling diagram on which all the turnous and signals could be controlled by a mouse click - or a touch screen.

 

Other controllers, like the Gaugemaster, or Hornby's Rail LInk, can also be computer controlled, but only with their own proprietry software.

 

Hope that gives you some ideas,

 

Al.

[emt_911]

A busy but useful day.

 

Firstly, my wallet got mugged at Gaugemater for some essential items.

 

Secondly, the first locomotive travelled the whole track system on Son of HA (photos tomorrow when the camera battery re-charges)

 

Thirdly, I've spent some time getting to grips with JMRI. The software is definitely the way to go for me. I just need to decide on the hardware for block detection etc

[Andrew P]

I do Model Railways so that I can run Trains as realistically as I can, I leave computers to Kids for Space Bandits or whatever. I enjoy controlling the speed of the Locos, working the Points and Signals to replicate the real thing.

 

Each to his (or her) own mate.

[emt_911]

I do Model Railways so that I can run Trains as realistically as I can, I leave computers to Kids for Space Bandits or whatever. I enjoy controlling the speed of the Locos, working the Points and Signals to replicate the real thing.

 

Each to his (or her) own mate.

I totally agree with you Andy. What I'm looking at being able to do is run the through and stopping trains realistically including the signals, points and speeds but at the same time shunting the yards.

 

If I get it right, I'll also be able to run the layout myself without any computer control if I want to.

[Alister_G]

I do Model Railways so that I can run Trains as realistically as I can, I leave computers to Kids for Space Bandits or whatever. I enjoy controlling the speed of the Locos, working the Points and Signals to replicate the real thing.

 

Each to his (or her) own mate.

 

 

I totally agree with you Andy. What I'm looking at being able to do is run the through and stopping trains realistically including the signals, points and speeds but at the same time shunting the yards.

 

If I get it right, I'll also be able to run the layout myself without any computer control if I want to.

 

My take on things is this:

 

On a roundy roundy layout, you can set a train going on the main through lines, and leave it to circle the layout, (or even one in each direction if you're feeling brave) whilst you actually control another loco to do shunting moves in the yard.

 

However, that isn't really prototypical, as you get the same train appearing every few minutes, and you certainly can't do that on an end-to-end layout.

 

With computer control (whether it be by software or hardware) you can automate it so that on a roundy roundy, you can get a train to go out of the fiddle yard, round the layout, and back into the fiddle yard, and then a different train to do the same thing, all with working signals etc. On an end-to-end layout, you can do exactly the same - one train start at one end, traverse the scenic section, and then stop in the fiddle yard at the other end, and another one to do the same.

 

All this gives you trains running in the background, whilst you do your shunting in the yards manually.

 

It could also mean that fi you program the paths for the automated trains, you can drive one manually but have to fit in with the automated ones, a challenge just like the real thing, so you would only have a certain amount of time to get your slow goods off the mainline before an express is due, and things like that.

 

That's what I'm wanting to be able to do, and I think that's probably what Duncan wants as well.

 

It's not a question of taking away the manual driving, but more to complement it with a prototypical busy layout with expresses rushing by, and freights plodding by, whilst the focus of your interest is the shunting.

 

Al.

[emt_911]

My take on things is this:

 

On a roundy roundy layout, you can set a train going on the main through lines, and leave it to circle the layout, (or even one in each direction if you're feeling brave) whilst you actually control another loco to do shunting moves in the yard.

 

However, that isn't really prototypical, as you get the same train appearing every few minutes, and you certainly can't do that on an end-to-end layout.

 

With computer control (whether it be by software or hardware) you can automate it so that on a roundy roundy, you can get a train to go out of the fiddle yard, round the layout, and back into the fiddle yard, and then a different train to do the same thing, all with working signals etc. On an end-to-end layout, you can do exactly the same - one train start at one end, traverse the scenic section, and then stop in the fiddle yard at the other end, and another one to do the same.

 

All this gives you trains running in the background, whilst you do your shunting in the yards manually.

 

It could also mean that fi you program the paths for the automated trains, you can drive one manually but have to fit in with the automated ones, a challenge just like the real thing, so you would only have a certain amount of time to get your slow goods off the mainline before an express is due, and things like that.

 

That's what I'm wanting to be able to do, and I think that's probably what Duncan wants as well.

 

It's not a question of taking away the manual driving, but more to complement it with a prototypical busy layout with expresses rushing by, and freights plodding by, whilst the focus of your interest is the shunting.

 

Al.

Spot on Al. Exactly what I'm trying to achieve but you managed to put it into words far better than I could have.

 

The other part that I like is that it can be set up for passenger trains to stop at stations and wait before heading off, freights to miss certain locations and stopping goods to shunt into the goods yard. The route can be dependant on the roads available as well.

Edited December 29, 2016 by emt_911

[emt_911]

As promised, photos of Son of HA and the first test run

 

View of the shed area and some of the rolling stock

 

My test loco. If this runs over the points, anything does

 

A long view

[Andrew P]

Hey Duncan, that's looking very good mate, I like the Shed and Pits, but a little worried about the EMU at the back and what appears to be a Q1 that have both come off the Rails, hahah

 

Really good start mate, and I'm looking forward to regular photo update from now on.

[emt_911]

Hey Duncan, that's looking very good mate, I like the Shed and Pits, but a little worried about the EMU at the back and what appears to be a Q1 that have both come off the Rails, hahah

 

Really good start mate, and I'm looking forward to regular photo update from now on.

Thanks Andy

 

The Q1 and EMU were moved off the tracks while I re-programmed the test loco on track.

 

Off out tomorrow to pick up some white faced hardboard. Then it's time to try to emulate your good self with the paint.

[Andrew P]

Thanks Andy

 

The Q1 and EMU were moved off the tracks while I re-programmed the test loco on track.

 

Off out tomorrow to pick up some white faced hardboard. Then it's time to try to emulate your good self with the paint.

Halfords Ford Electric Blue and White Primer for the Sky, Blue to the top remember mate.

 

EDIT = Oh and NOT to heavy.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Andrew P

[emt_911]

Halfords Ford Electric Blue and White Primer for the Sky, Blue to the top remember mate.

 

EDIT = Oh and NOT to heavy.

Thanks mate. Duly noted

[Andrew P]

A bit like this mate.

 

And using the Primer to LIGHTLY blow in some cloud

 

 

[emt_911]

The supplies for the back scene were acquired earlier but having to spray outside has curtailed any further progress thanks to persistent fog.

 

Not all has been lost though. Plenty of playing    testing has taken place including starting to use JMRI and learn how it works.

 

I do have one complaint about Andy's club. When I was up there assisting before Christmas, I purchased a sound fitted King. An excellent runner and the sound is amazing.   Now I'm going to have to sound fit the rest of the fleet.

[Andrew P]

The supplies for the back scene were acquired earlier but having to spray outside has curtailed any further progress thanks to persistent fog.

 

Not all has been lost though. Plenty of playing    testing has taken place including starting to use JMRI and learn how it works.

 

I do have one complaint about Andy's club. When I was up there assisting before Christmas, I purchased a sound fitted King. An excellent runner and the sound is amazing.   Now I'm going to have to sound fit the rest of the fleet.

Please excuse this bloke from Devon mate but what the hek is a JMRI when it's at Ome?

[emt_911]

Hi Andy. JMRI is Java Model Railroad Interface. It's one way of controlling the model railway by computer. As you can tell from the name it started in America.

 

If you want to find out more (which I doubt) it can be found here http://jmri.org/

Edited December 30, 2016 by emt_911

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Andy. JMRI is Java Model Railroad Interface. It's one way of controlling the model railway by computer. As you can tell from the name it started in America.

 

If you want to find out more (which I doubt) it can be found here http://jmri.org/

Hi Duncan and Andy

 

Just another gadget to go wrong. Surely a ex REME craftsman should be able to multitask? I would have thought simple DC where you run the mainline and are still able to do some shunting would have been possible. OK you need to concentrate.

[Alister_G]

Hi Duncan and Andy

 

Just another gadget to go wrong. Surely a ex REME craftsman should be able to multitask? I would have thought simple DC where you run the mainline and are still able to do some shunting would have been possible. OK you need to concentrate.

 

Hi Clive,

 

See my earlier answer (post 709). JMRI and other computer control options give you the ability to do things it just isn't possible to do by manual control.

 

Al.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Clive,

 

See my earlier answer (post 709). JMRI and other computer control options give you the ability to do things it just isn't possible to do by manual control.

 

Al.

Hi Al

 

We are going to have to disagree. As the years have gone past I have found the simpler the operation is the less problems and more fun. The simpler things are the less it cost, in money and time.

 

 

With automatic or semi-automatic operation, as soon as there is a derailment it all goes "little blue birds" up. Just banging the emergency stop button can cause more problems else where. OK with a derailment on a manual operated layout it needs to be stopped and sorted out but you have far more control over events and usually get things back to life quicker.

 

When I design a layout I always think of the minimum number of operators it would take to operate it. If it is for me then it is designed around what I feel I can do, not what I would like to do.

I have posted the track plan below already, it is a permutation my dream layout, two running lines with fiddle yards and a terminus station. The concept is a train leaves the station to go somewhere else, it is left running round until I am in a position to park it in a fiddle yard road. Another train has left that road and then runs round waiting for me to arrange for it to arrive at the station. I hope I can leave two trains running while I get the next departure from the terminus ready.

 

 

More operators then the more can be achieved.

[Alister_G]

Hi Al

 

We are going to have to disagree. As the years have gone past I have found the simpler the operation is the less problems and more fun. The simpler things are the less it cost, in money and time.

Nope. I don't disagree with anything you say there.

 

 

With automatic or semi-automatic operation, as soon as there is a derailment it all goes "little blue birds" up. Just banging the emergency stop button can cause more problems else where.

I agree with that as well...

 

OK with a derailment on a manual operated layout it needs to be stopped and sorted out but you have far more control over events and usually get things back to life quicker.

I'm not sure the last bit is true, however.

 

For myself, and I think for Duncan, the challenge of getting the automation to work reliably is part of the fun, it's another, different aspect of railway modelling, and I appreciate that it's not one that everyone embraces.

 

Done properly though, it adds an extra dimension to what is achievable in portraying a working railway.

 

Now, you'll have to excuse me, as I need to go and wipe up the drooling over your layout plan, the layout of the fiddle yards is a lovely thing.

 

Al.

[emt_911]

Sorry Clive, but I have to agree with Al. Being in an industry where technology is a very important part and having to think outside the box to meet customer and regulatory requirements is a challenge. It naturally falls into other aspects of my life as well.

 

If it means that I can achieve something where technology means I can get more enjoyment and better pro-typical operation if it gets to the level of exhibiting with less operators, which of course means less cost to the organisers, then I think that it is more than worth it.

 

There are several layouts both large and small on the exhibition circuit that use differing levels of automation including a couple that are fully automated.

 

If I can run for example a local passenger service, a stopping goods train, a warflat train, shunt the military depot and also inject a priority troop train into the schedule by the press of a button where the routing is automatic it adds a new dimension to the visual impact.

 

If derailments or loco failures happen, it's part of life and the system can deal with re-routing other trains if the running lines allow for it or stops the following ones at the previous signal without having to hit the emergency stop button.

 

Just my views and ramblings.

 

BTW, I like the track plan

[Barry O]

Duncan

Have a look at all the systems available from Digitraxx/Lenz as they are DCC compliant and have been used elsewhere.

I am having a lot of problems with NCE "mucking" around with CVs on sound fitted locos on a big layout as seen in January's Railway Modeller.

 

No problem with JMRI ..I use a SPROG to set CVS and JMRI manages that well.

 

Baz