Hattons announce 14xx / 48xx / 58xx

[The Johnster]

Ah, north of Shrewsbury could be of interest...       

 

IIRC, by which I mean RC reading about it, I'm not THAT old, they were loan replacements for Dean Goods' on war duty overseas.  Some were allocated to Kidderminster, and, I think, Worcester, so not impossible north of Shrewsbury!

[Melangoose]

My father purchased a DCC sound version of these locos from Hattons. The first was returned due to poor running qualities. He is now on the second which seems to run okay until he puts the sound on then it runs not to well at all. He is using an NCE Powercab controller. Is anyone else using the same controller and having similar problems. I apologise if this has come up before with this controller but this thread now has 81 pages and I have not got a spare week to read every reply.

Regards Nigel

[Neal Ball]

My father purchased a DCC sound version of these locos from Hattons. The first was returned due to poor running qualities. He is now on the second which seems to run okay until he puts the sound on then it runs not to well at all. He is using an NCE Powercab controller. Is anyone else using the same controller and having similar problems. I apologise if this has come up before with this controller but this thread now has 81 pages and I have not got a spare week to read every reply.

Regards Nigel

Good luck at getting that fixed, hopefully it's straight forward.

[JSpencer]

My father purchased a DCC sound version of these locos from Hattons. The first was returned due to poor running qualities. He is now on the second which seems to run okay until he puts the sound on then it runs not to well at all. He is using an NCE Powercab controller. Is anyone else using the same controller and having similar problems. I apologise if this has come up before with this controller but this thread now has 81 pages and I have not got a spare week to read every reply.

Regards Nigel

Did they fit a stay alive capacitor? If not, they should have, because these small locos will be intermittent without one.

[NickC]

Did they fit a stay alive capacitor? If not, they should have, because these small locos will be intermittent without one.

Given this loco is quite small and stay alive capacitors quite big, were on earth would you fit it?

[tender]

Did they fit a stay alive capacitor? If not, they should have, because these small locos will be intermittent without one.

Rubbish.

[JSpencer]

Rubbish.

 

To qualify my statement, my DJM austerity ran like a sack of spanners under DCC sound, but cured with a capacitor.  The chassis size and design is similar to the 14XX.

 

Edit: on soundless DCC, it probably won't need it as the loco will chug along at the previous speed. Under sound, it tends to think it needs to go through the start routine again.

Now qualify your "rubbish" please.

Edited May 17, 2017 by JSpencer

[Captain Kernow]

I don't know what a 'stay alive capacitor' is, but as it's presumably not some piece of medical equipment, is it purely to do with DCC?

[Ian Hargrave]

I don't know what a 'stay alive capacitor' is, but as it's presumably not some piece of medical equipment, is it purely to do with DCC?

Is it some electrical by pass valve ....as in open heart surgery? Friend of mine says they use pigs bladder for those.....☠

[tender]

To qualify my statement, my DJM austerity ran like a sack of spanners under DCC sound, but cured with a capacitor.  The chassis size and design is similar to the 14XX.

 

Edit: on soundless DCC, it probably won't need it as the loco will chug along at the previous speed. Under sound, it tends to think it needs to go through the start routine again.

Now qualify your "rubbish" please.

 

 

If you have well laid clean track, clean wheels and pick-ups, even 0-4-0 designs such as Hornby's Peckett will run perfectly well without any 'artificial aids'.

 

The 14xx chassis is similar also to the O2 and BWT both of which I have running faultlessly with DCC sound without the need for 'Stay Alive Capacitors'.

[Roy Langridge]

If you have well laid clean track, clean wheels and pick-ups, even 0-4-0 designs such as Hornby's Peckett will run perfectly well without any 'artificial aids'.

 

The 14xx chassis is similar also to the O2 and BWT both of which I have running faultlessly with DCC sound without the need for 'Stay Alive Capacitors'.

 

Yes, but we don't all live in a perfect world do we? Tracks are not always perfect, temperature having an impact, wheels get dirty during running etc. I have run my Pecketts with and without stay alive (as I have with my J94s) and there is a difference. It may not be much, but there is one, and as a famous advert used to say... Every little helps.

 

Roy

[coachmann]

I soon found that sound-fitted locos will cut out on a gnats testicle even if in theory there are 14 wheels picking up current. It's a DCC 'thing' and so I routinely fit a 'stay-alive' these days if only to curb bad language. There isn't the space in a Hattons 14XX for one until part of the coal plate is milled away. This would be a simple matter if the body could be easily removed, but removal entails cutting pipes which are attached to body and chassis!

Edited May 17, 2017 by coachmann

[The Johnster]

Stayalives are an obviously good idea, and work as a sort of electronic flywheel, but it might be easier to fit a real flywheel to this model!  I would want to fit stayalives to my DC stock if such a thing were available, as although I have very good slow running, every little does help and I am a belt and braces sort of chap anyway!

 

I had plans years ago, which I never implemented, to power locos from an onboard 9v battery, pp3 size I don't know what they call 'em these days.  The battery would power the loco's motor, but control would be from a servo driven centre off potentiometer powered from the track, the idea being to create a more realistic driving experience in which something has to be done, and with a degree of skill and forethought at that, to stop the thing once it's moving; real drivers will tell you that any idiot can make a train go, and many do, but stopping it where and when it's wanted is a different matter.  I drew up all sorts of what I thought were wiring diagrams, and it is probably as well for my fragile sanity that I did not attempt to build it!

 

Getting it into a pannier would have been a challenge, and my smallest loco was an Airfix 14xx, which might well have ended up permacoupled to it's equally Airfix trailer to accommodate the gubbins.  Even on the larger engines, 56xx and prairies, I reckon I'd have had to sacrifice cab detail and probably daylight as well!  The other problem would have been gearing the servo so as to attain smooth acceleration and deceleration (I had seem attempts at radio controlling locos using aircraft or boat modelling sevos which failed to achieve this to my satisfaction) while retaining the ability to manage a reasonably quick emergency stop; cutting the power to the track would, of course, have simply resulted in an uncontrollable and unstoppable runaway.  

 

I planned to put the battery in the cabs, upside down with the connector fixed to the floor and the cab roof removable, probably impossible on GW locos with high footplates like 56xx and prairies, and have onboard single action on-off push switches operated by a stick down the chimney to isolate the locos, a sort of DC analogue DCC so that the layout could be wired without isolating sections.  There would have been no visual indication of which locos were 'on' or 'off', a drawback I never solved.  Other members of the club I was in that I revealed my master plan for revolutionising the hobby to were, to say the least, skeptical, or perhaps sensible would be a better word, and DCC was just starting up then; it was obviously the way to go if you wanted to do this sort of thing!

Edited May 17, 2017 by The Johnster

[JSpencer]

If you have well laid clean track, clean wheels and pick-ups, even 0-4-0 designs such as Hornby's Peckett will run perfectly well without any 'artificial aids'.

 

The 14xx chassis is similar also to the O2 and BWT both of which I have running faultlessly with DCC sound without the need for 'Stay Alive Capacitors'.

 

The O2 has pick ups split between the drivers and trailers, the Well has a sprung axle - bearing pickups exist only on the drivers. I fitted sound to the latter and no problems with that. The 14XX and Austerity are really rigid 6 wheel chassis in a solid split block using bearing pickups (which can be oiled). The plastic frog on a point is enough to cause contact to be lost. I have done tests with various small locos (perhaps I should do a video) whereby by O2s, Well tanks, Sentinals, USA etc glide through with ease but the austerity is hesitant through points. I don't claim my track work 100% perfect, I'm just saying this design is more fussy than other small engines so be aware and include a capacitor if possible.

[JSpencer]

Stayalives are an obviously good idea, and work as a sort of electronic flywheel, but it might be easier to fit a real flywheel to this model!  I would want to fit stayalives to my DC stock if such a thing were available, as although I have very good slow running, every little does help and I am a belt and braces sort of chap anyway!

 

I had plans years ago, which I never implemented, to power locos from an onboard 9v battery, pp3 size I don't know what they call 'em these days.  The battery would power the loco's motor, but control would be from a servo driven centre off potentiometer powered from the track, the idea being to create a more realistic driving experience in which something has to be done, and with a degree of skill and forethought at that, to stop the thing once it's moving; real drivers will tell you that any idiot can make a train go, and many do, but stopping it where and when it's wanted is a different matter.  I drew up all sorts of what I thought were wiring diagrams, and it is probably as well for my fragile sanity that I did not attempt to build it!

 

Getting it into a pannier would have been a challenge, and my smallest loco was an Airfix 14xx, which might well have ended up permacoupled to it's equally Airfix trailer to accommodate the gubbins.  Even on the larger engines, 56xx and prairies, I reckon I'd have had to sacrifice cab detail and probably daylight as well!  The other problem would have been gearing the servo so as to attain smooth acceleration and deceleration (I had seem attempts at radio controlling locos using aircraft or boat modelling sevos which failed to achieve this to my satisfaction) while retaining the ability to manage a reasonably quick emergency stop; cutting the power to the track would, of course, have simply resulted in an uncontrollable and unstoppable runaway.  

 

I planned to put the battery in the cabs, upside down with the connector fixed to the floor and the cab roof removable, probably impossible on GW locos with high footplates like 56xx and prairies, and have onboard single action on-off push switches operated by a stick down the chimney to isolate the locos, a sort of DC analogue DCC so that the layout could be wired without isolating sections.  There would have been no visual indication of which locos were 'on' or 'off', a drawback I never solved.  Other members of the club I was in that I revealed my master plan for revolutionising the hobby to were, to say the least, skeptical, or perhaps sensible would be a better word, and DCC was just starting up then; it was obviously the way to go if you wanted to do this sort of thing!

 

To date, all flywheels fitted are directly on the motor shafts and when starting, they serve no purpose other than being extra inertia to overcome. At slow speeds, they often lack momentum unless they are really big fly wheels which then compounds further the problem in my 1st sentence.

On small compact locos, I personally found it better to use any space to fit a big motor rather than squeezing in a small motor and flywheel, as a bigger motor would have more power break the initial inertia to get the model to slowly creep away. An iron core motor also acts partially as its own flywheel too, something a coreless cannot.

I suppose ideally, we need the flywheels geared in - like a friction motor - so that they are charged up when moving off but have plenty of energy, even at slow speeds to carry models over small dead sections. The complexity renders this idea as impractical on a model. An alternative is a second motor, charging the flywheel which then acts as a generator for the first motor over dead sections. (The class 71 models just released would then be even more authentic!)

 

None of these ideas will fit in a small 14XX however.

 

Finally you have the weight of the loco itself. Portescaps used beveled gears between the motor and gearbox - and if your gear train and motion are smooth enough - this will act as the locos own fly wheel. I wonder why no make uses them?

[tender]

The plastic frog on a point is enough to cause contact to be lost.

 

 

'Nuf said.

Edited May 17, 2017 by tender

[JSpencer]

'Nuf said.

And even live metal flogs on Peco will stall these things.

[Captain Kernow]

You DCC wallers talk so casually about these 'stay alive capacitor' thingies, but I'm still not sure what they are, but judging from the talk on the thread, are they akin to some kind of emergency on-board battery?

[Porcy Mane]

You DCC wallers talk so casually about these 'stay alive capacitor' thingies, but I'm still not sure what they are, but judging from the talk on the thread, are they akin to some kind of emergency on-board battery?

 

Charges itself up as an energy store. The silver trinket box in this photie. Googling "Zimo SC68" (Others available) should throw up info.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64736-my-detailingrepainting-projects/page-91&do=findComment&comment=2725684

 

Nigel Cliffe wrote about knocking up your own and fitting them in Scalefour News a few issues ago.

Give me five minutes to check which issues.

 

 Edit: S4N 185 & 186.

 

P

Edited May 17, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[coachmann]

A stay-alive is a capacitor and has the capacity to store current....Some a lot and some a seconds worth. Even a small capacitor is enough ot keep a DCC sound loco going when otherwise it would cut out.  I bought a few from YouChoose a couple of weeks ago, as I always go for the largest that a loco will accommodate along with the decoder and speaker. I have a video on Youtube showing a Hornby 8F being lifted off the track with a 15 second capacitor on board. The wheels keep revolving. If I stopped this loco and took it indoors, the sound chip would remain running for over a minute. Obviously it is overkill but I was curious. It cost around £21.00. This might explain things better.....

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by coachmann

[BWsTrains]

And even live metal flogs on Peco will stall these things.

There is a trap I discovered about "Stay-Alive" when trying to fix a running problem with a 4575 Class over just a couple of points (insulfrog) in forward but not reverse. My local shop convinced me to put in a DCC Concepts Zen nano chip with Stay-alive but that did nothing and some running tests on track covered with masking tape to break contact quickly showed I was getting a fraction of a second of extra "alive" running. A quick look at the small capacitor supplied should have told me that.

 

Further reading of the DCC Concepts guff warned against over sizing capacitors with the tiny Nano sized DCC chips - risk of burn out?

 

Re the Zimo SC68

1)  has the size to work but might be a risk if used with small DCC chips which tend to be put in small locos, worth checking.

2) will it fit? the bunker seems the only possible spot on the 14xx and that's no good if running Sound

 

Also if 14xx stalls so easily, it seems to me most likely it's the rigid chassis structure at fault. My similarly sized 57xx and 64xx Bachmanns with their sprung middle axles sail thru everything at even the slowest speed whereas the larger 4575 is not sprung and has the odd running issue.

Edited May 17, 2017 by BWsTrains

[Porcy Mane]

There are a few things to take into consideration when using stay alives. As a general rule of thumb, physically the larger the size of the capacitor the greater "run on" ability with no power.

 

The track voltage your DCC system outputs to the track could influence the choice of stay alive capacitor. Commercial Super capacitors used in 4mm model railway application are rated in the main at 15V, 16V or 25 volts. Some recommend not using a super cap above their rated voltage, for example not using a 15 volt rated Zimo SC68 with a Bachmann EZ command that supplies over 17 volt to the track.. There is additional simple circuitry that can be connected to the supercaps to limit their changing voltage.

 

A number of retailers that sell the SC68 have assured me they are safe to run at a few volts above their rating. I have tried them with a Bachmann EZ command without additional circuitry and had no problems.

 

There is plenty of information out there on using stay alives, Google should turn up plenty.

 

P

Edited May 18, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[PMP]

 

. My similarly sized 57xx and 64xx Bachmanns with their sprung middle axles sail thru everything

 

The Bachmann 64xx doesn't have a sprung axle, the model in fact drives through the centre axle. I've not fitted sound to my 14xx but have fitted a loksound decoder and speaker to a 64xx. This has shown since fitting a marked tendency to 'cut out' as far as sound goes so I mentioned this to one the supplier, whom suggested a stay alive too. I asked why as having already fitted sound to 57xx's ( https://albionyard.wordpress.com/dcc-sound-pannier-conversion/) using the first SWD loksound chip and these not having the same problem, this cutting out was frustrating to say the least. The answer was that the newer chips are far more sensitive, and a stay alive would help smooth out the irregularities. This seems to make sense as the two 'MK1's' that I have done are far less susceptible to cutting out than this recent newer loksound micro. If I were to fit one I'd place a cut down sugar cube in the cab with the stay alive in the bunker space.

[BWsTrains]

 

 

. My similarly sized 57xx and 64xx Bachmanns with their sprung middle axles sail thru everything

 

The Bachmann 64xx doesn't have a sprung axle,

 

You are correct, my mistake. Only the 57xx is sprung but both that and the 64xx run perfectly on my layout, best of all my locos. 

 

I guess my question changes. If these two locos are such great reliable runners, one with a rigid chassis, why so much difficulty being experienced on other small loco types?

BTW I chose the 57xx and 64xx over the 14xx because some experienced folk here recommended them for their reliable running, and very sound advice that has proved to be.

[JSpencer]

The 57XX is sprung and runs best, the 64XX is not sprung, however the bearings sit in slots on the chassis of the 64xx and pickups are wiper type, so the chassis is not as rigid as a 14xx or Austerity where bearings are solidly fixed to the chassis block and also serve as the pick ups.

Edited May 18, 2017 by JSpencer