Hattons announce 14xx / 48xx / 58xx

[Bernard Lamb]

From what i have read 14xx loco's were rarely used for shunting due to there screw reverse gear on the Watlington branch line.

 

Regards Mark

My understanding is that they were never normally used on the Watlington branch.

However there is a story that they might have been used at one time during WW11.

Bernard

[90rob]

My understanding is that they were never normally used on the Watlington branch.

However there is a story that they might have been used at one time during WW11.

Bernard

 

That would make sense as Watlington was classed as a yellow route, and before 57xx were reclassified from blue to yellow in 1950 and officially allowed to take over, the route had presumably to rely on a declining number of 2021s..?

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

Hi Gents,

 

I've been following the discussion on the suitability of 14xx for certain branch lines with regards to the screw reverser fitted to the class.

 

First off, we need to make an important distinction between the Reverser control and the Brake control. The Johnster says that the 67xx Panniers were fitted with a steam Reverse (Post 1978). I don't know if that is true, but according the Haresnape's Collett & Hawksworth Locomotives the 67xxs certainly were steam Brake only. The other 57xx/8750 panniers had both steam AND vacuum brakes. In Brian Topping's The Engine Driver's Manual he says that in addition to the 57xx the 14xx and 45xx were also dual steam/vacuum braked. I think you can add to that list the 2251 Collett Goods and almost any other GWR type likely to be used for shunting or pick-up freight work. Why was a steam brake an asset for shunting? Because you could apply and release the locomotive brakes instantaneously, whereas with a vacuum only locomotive you had to recreate 25 inches of vacuum using the ejector every time you applied the brake. This could be a slow process especially so if there were leaks in the brake cylinders or pipes/hoses.

 

So, the 14xxs like many small GWR locos had three forms of braking available to the crew on the footplate, two which braked the loco only (handbrake and steam brake) and one which could brake the remainder of any vacuum fitted train it was pulling (vacuum brake).

 

Now let's get on to Reversers which is a separate matter altogether. I can only ever recall mention of one GWR class that used a steam Reverser: the 26xx "Aberdares". Other than that, my understanding is that GWR locos were fitted with either a "Screw" reverser or a "Lever" reverser. Generally, the Screw reverser was fitted to passenger locos. Generally freight locos were fitted with the Lever reverser. There were exceptions however - The Collett Goods were fitted with a Screw reverser.

 

I would be interested to know what advantage if any the Lever reverser conferred for shunting or pick-up goods work. Any thoughts gents?

 

Happy to stand corrected if any of the above if it is wrong.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy.

[The Great Bear]

Where they worked MIxed Trains (e.g Wallingford and Marlow branches) there was no choice but to use them for shunting (which could of course take place with the auto-trailer still attached).

I have it in my mind that at Wallingford the trailer had to be detached when shunting the yard due to clearance issues. Or maybe I've got confused with the fiction of my layout!

[coachmann]

We did all our shunting with locos with screw reverser....And just got on with it! Our only locos I can remember with steam brake were our Austerity 2-8-0's. It was a doddle to use, but we never got one of them for Mumps pilot work (Mumps Bridge, Oldham). 

 

As a slight shunt, commentators often point to the sparse protection on elderly British 0-6-0's. In fact such open cabs and low tenders gave good all-round view and were great when shunting as one felt more closely in touch with the yard men. Different story in wet weather of course but that's life!

[Roy Langridge]

 

I would be interested to know what advantage if any the Lever reverser conferred for shunting or pick-up goods work. Any thoughts gents?

 

Happy to stand corrected if any of the above if it is wrong.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy.

 

A lever reverser is a major advantage shunting as you can go from full forward to full reverse, or vice versa, almost instantly (with the loco stationary obviously). A screw reverser takes time and effort.

 

Locos fitted with both vacuum and steam brakes can also be useful shunting as careful use can mean that the couplings between the loco and stock are always loose when you stop which makes the unhooking easier and avoids the needs to squeeze up - again saving time and effort.

 

Roy

[spiket4]

Where they worked MIxed Trains (e.g Wallingford and Marlow branches) there was no choice but to use them for shunting (which could of course take place with the auto-trailer still attached).

Yes i have seen photos of this practice on the Marlow Donkey.

My understanding is that they were never normally used on the Watlington branch.

However there is a story that they might have been used at one time during WW11.

Bernard

I have only read that they were used on the line and rarely at that. 

That would make sense as Watlington was classed as a yellow route, and before 57xx were reclassified from blue to yellow in 1950 and officially allowed to take over, the route had presumably to rely on a declining number of 2021s..?

Very true there can't of been many 2021s left in service by then.

 

Regards Mark

[The Johnster]

Hi Gents,

 

I've been following the discussion on the suitability of 14xx for certain branch lines with regards to the screw reverser fitted to the class.

 

First off, we need to make an important distinction between the Reverser control and the Brake control. The Johnster says that the 67xx Panniers were fitted with a steam Reverse (Post 1978). I don't know if that is true, but according the Haresnape's Collett & Hawksworth Locomotives the 67xxs certainly were steam Brake only. The other 57xx/8750 panniers had both steam AND vacuum brakes. In Brian Topping's The Engine Driver's Manual he says that in addition to the 57xx the 14xx and 45xx were also dual steam/vacuum braked. I think you can add to that list the 2251 Collett Goods and almost any other GWR type likely to be used for shunting or pick-up freight work. Why was a steam brake an asset for shunting? Because you could apply and release the locomotive brakes instantaneously, whereas with a vacuum only locomotive you had to recreate 25 inches of vacuum using the ejector every time you applied the brake. This could be a slow process especially so if there were leaks in the brake cylinders or pipes/hoses.

 

So, the 14xxs like many small GWR locos had three forms of braking available to the crew on the footplate, two which braked the loco only (handbrake and steam brake) and one which could brake the remainder of any vacuum fitted train it was pulling (vacuum brake).

 

Now let's get on to Reversers which is a separate matter altogether. I can only ever recall mention of one GWR class that used a steam Reverser: the 26xx "Aberdares". Other than that, my understanding is that GWR locos were fitted with either a "Screw" reverser or a "Lever" reverser. Generally, the Screw reverser was fitted to passenger locos. Generally freight locos were fitted with the Lever reverser. There were exceptions however - The Collett Goods were fitted with a Screw reverser.

 

I would be interested to know what advantage if any the Lever reverser conferred for shunting or pick-up goods work. Any thoughts gents?

 

Happy to stand corrected if any of the above if it is wrong.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy.

 

A screw reverse takes longer and is physically harder work to operate, so a lever reverse saved time and was less tiring to the driver of a loco that would frequently be performing intensive shunting operations in forming or disposing trains.  A lever can be moved from forward to reverse much more quickly and easily than a screw.  

 

I may have got myself a bit confused about the 67/6750 panniers, which were designed specifically for shunting and not fitted with vacuum brakes, though had steam and handbrakes.  They had, as you correctly say, lever reverse.  I always think of them as docks shunters, as my familiarity with them as a child was on Cardiff and Newport docks.

Edited April 27, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

We did all our shunting with locos with screw reverser....And just got on with it! Our only locos I can remember with steam brake were our Austerity 2-8-0's. It was a doddle to use, but we never got one of them for Mumps pilot work (Mumps Bridge, Oldham). 

 

As a slight shunt, commentators often point to the sparse protection on elderly British 0-6-0's. In fact such open cabs and low tenders gave good all-round view and were great when shunting as one felt more closely in touch with the yard men. Different story in wet weather of course but that's life!

And, if things were going a bit wrong, easier to jump off at shunting speeds...

[john dew]

You rarely get breaking news from me.......particularly in this case where the two models I ordered were from the last batch. 4017 and 5018 duly arrived in Vancouver last week and in fact made the trip from Liverpool in record time.

 

I wasnt overly concerned about the various "detail gate" debates but I did worry about the indifferent running reports.

 

Fortunately both of mine, after some initial alarms, are now running satisfactorily. The wheels were very dirty and required a thorough clean ....not something I am used to with a new loco. I used Lenz Gold Mini decoders. Performance was very poor with default CV settings but once tweaked improved dramatically and encouragingly continues to improve the more I run them

 

There is more detail in my layout thread

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/2773-granby-junction-00-gwrlms-1947/page-24&do=findComment&comment=2709593

 

but here a few photos of 4807 renumbered........and yes the surface mounted plates look much better than the recessed ones......new plates are on the way for 5018

 

 

 

 

 

[57xx]

Fortunately both of mine, after some initial alarms, are now running satisfactorily. The wheels were very dirty and required a thorough clean ....not something I am used to with a new loco. 

 

My replacement 5814 is waiting at the RM sorting office, I'll make sure to check the cleanliness of the wheels on it as it is also a weathered example and it wasn't something I thought to check on a brand new loco either.

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks for the above posts. Just a comment that a good investment is a wheel cleaning brush....or two.Easy to use and dramatically improves performance.Often weathering applies where it shouldn't ..

[Hilux5972]

Agree Ian. I purchased the Gaugemaster Tidy Track Roto Wheel Cleaner and have never regretted it.

 

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/TT4561/page/1

 

Comes with soft felt pads and harsher scouring pads for this stubborn deposits. Just clip to live track with the crocodile clips and put the loco on it. Easiest way I have ever cleaned wheels. And replacement cleaning pads are available too.

[JSpencer]

Thanks for the above posts. Just a comment that a good investment is a wheel cleaning brush....or two.Easy to use and dramatically improves performance.Often weathering applies where it shouldn't ..

 

I use a glass fibre pen for those sorts of tasks. The right strength to remove dirt, paint and oxides.

[Paul_sterling]

Agree Ian. I purchased the Gaugemaster Tidy Track Roto Wheel Cleaner and have never regretted it.

 

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/TT4561/page/1

 

Comes with soft felt pads and harsher scouring pads for this stubborn deposits. Just clip to live track with the crocodile clips and put the loco on it. Easiest way I have ever cleaned wheels. And replacement cleaning pads are available too.

 

Likewise, a very useful tool. admittedly sometimes i've found scotchpad more effective for really stubborn deposits, but the Gauge-master cleaner is brilliant for convenient and quick cleaning. 

 

Paul. 

[The Johnster]

I use a glass fibre pen for those sorts of tasks. The right strength to remove dirt, paint and oxides.

 

Given up on fibre pens for this job, as bits of fibre get into your mechanisms, a shame because as you say they are the right strength!

[exmoordave]

Morning each!

 

A few weeks ago I wrote a comment about my 14xx that I had just received. On this particular loco one of the cabside plates plus the smokebox plate were not horizontal, and once spotted my eye was constantly drawn to it. I contacted Hattons about this and they immediately offered to replace it. I also asked about reimbursing my postage cost, which again, they agreed to without hesitation. Anyway, my point is that we hear a great deal about poor or lacklustre service from companies, so I wanted to redress the balance and give credit where credit is due - something we hear little about sometimes. So, well done Hattons for excellent service, I am a very happy bunny!!

[Roy Langridge]

Morning each!

 

A few weeks ago I wrote a comment about my 14xx that I had just received. On this particular loco one of the cabside plates plus the smokebox plate were not horizontal, and once spotted my eye was constantly drawn to it. I contacted Hattons about this and they immediately offered to replace it. I also asked about reimbursing my postage cost, which again, they agreed to without hesitation. Anyway, my point is that we hear a great deal about poor or lacklustre service from companies, so I wanted to redress the balance and give credit where credit is due - something we hear little about sometimes. So, well done Hattons for excellent service, I am a very happy bunny!!

The service I have received from Hattons has similarly been first rate. Never had cause to fault them, and I have been ordering from them for at least 23 years.

 

Eoy

[Mark C]

In fact both 1420 and 1458 were used, possibly others. The Kington & Presteign goods was the only reason that I bought one of these locos.

Check out B&R Video's latest release - volume 208 Great Western Steam Miscellany No.3 - which shows 1420 doing exactly that.  Great stuff and a real 'modellers' freight train'!

[The Black Hat]

We did all our shunting with locos with screw reverser....And just got on with it! Our only locos I can remember with steam brake were our Austerity 2-8-0's. It was a doddle to use, but we never got one of them for Mumps pilot work (Mumps Bridge, Oldham). 

 

As a slight shunt, commentators often point to the sparse protection on elderly British 0-6-0's. In fact such open cabs and low tenders gave good all-round view and were great when shunting as one felt more closely in touch with the yard men. Different story in wet weather of course but that's life!

 

You must like the idea of a J25 being done then as some of them got sent down your way for a time. Would be nice to see that move to a J21/J25 being done... 

[coachmann]

You must like the idea of a J25 being done then as some of them got sent down your way for a time. Would be nice to see that move to a J21/J25 being done... 

The J25 certainly had plenty of cab, but I don't think they ever ran around Manchester and district. Maybe I have misunderstood what you say, but is someone going to do a J25?

[Tom F]

The J25 certainly had plenty of cab, but I don't think they ever ran around Manchester and district. Maybe I have misunderstood what you say, but is someone going to do a J25?

 

 

Some ended up on the GWR during the Second World War.

[coachmann]

Some ended up on the GWR during the Second World War.

Ah, north of Shrewsbury could be of interest...       

[57xx]

Picked up my replacement 5814 from the sorting office yesterday and early signs are it's a lot better than the first one. First thing I did was clean the wheels, holy cow - how much crud on them??  With that job out of the way, it was set for some running in on the rollers.

 

It still hunts a bit when run at slow speed and having to run it on a variable DC bench supply may not help (can't see that that is much different to one that has "train controller" written on it though!) as my usual ECM Compspeed controller is not suitable for it. With the ECM I have had all my other recent purchases running superbly at low speeds (28xx, King, 64xx, 42xx, <cough>S15,E4<cough> ). I'll give it a few more hours running in on the rollers and then fetch the test track out and see how we get on.

Edited May 7, 2017 by 57xx

[john dew]

I found the amount of dirt quite astonishing. Both of my locos are continueing to improve the more I run them. I have moved both off the "roundy roundy " nursery slopes and 5801 is doing quite complex automatic loco exchanges without too much supervision.

 

Good luck on the test track.....let us know how it goes

 

Almost satisfied in Vancouver!

 

John