Class 800 - Updates

[cornish trains jez]

Here it is. Nice train but looks strange running into KX.

 

https://flic.kr/p/FrWmgM

[melmerby]

If anybody's interested this is the move from North Pole to KX:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97585/2016/03/18/advanced

 

and return:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97586/2016/03/18/advanced

 

Keith

[pete_mcfarlane]

Once more we see the greatness of the bearded one, Virgin takes over East Coast and within a matter of weeks he has delivered brand new swish inter-city bullet trains. With no help or involvement from anybody else. Why-oh-why can't he own all UK railways, and indeed just own the UK full stop?

 

Surely he'd own about 5% of the UK himself, get other people to own the rest (and thus take much of the financial risk) and charge for using his logo?

[modfather]

I hope he has the sense to fit moquette seat covers in standard. Despite best intentions and looking really good initially the gwr hst set with cloth seat covers is looking decidedly nasty in places.

[cheesysmith]

I must admit that the front end of these do look good. As to the requirement for contrasting coloured doors, the colours chosen will end up s grey bodies and brown doors. Those recessed doors will be muck magnets.

 

As to the trains themselves, we have now been saddled with a civil servant inspired train for the next 30 years that is a poor second choice to the HST it replaces. A voyager clone, built without the tilting profile carriages, would have been a better choice that what we have now.

[jamie92208]

I may have missed something along the way but did the train run into KX under it's own power or was it being propelled.

 

Jamie

[cornish trains jez]

I must admit that the front end of these do look good. As to the requirement for contrasting coloured doors, the colours chosen will end up s grey bodies and brown doors. Those recessed doors will be muck magnets.

 

As to the trains themselves, we have now been saddled with a civil servant inspired train for the next 30 years that is a poor second choice to the HST it replaces. A voyager clone, built without the tilting profile carriages, would have been a better choice that what we have now.

 

Unfortunately, I think the people who design today's trains have never been on a proper train before (i.e HST etc) so unfortunately, comfort for the passenger doesn't come first. They will just cram as many seats into the carriages as possible in order to maximise profit, and there will most probably be hikes in ticket prices too. I took the Eurostar a couple years back whilst on a stag do and while it was a comfortable journey, there is no proper buffet service as with many services theses days. The best they could offer was a pretty disgusting cheese toasty cooked in the microwave. I believe that passengers taking a long journey should have the opportunity to have a proper cooked meal on board, in a comfortable environment, just like the years of train travel gone by. The world might have progressed since then but peoples travel needs are still the same.

 

What also baffles me is why we keep importing trains into the UK when we effectively invented the locomotive and have built many successful designs over the years. It would certainly make economical sense to build them here and create a whole load of new jobs.

 

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Rant over!

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

[Reorte]

I believe that passengers taking a long journey should have the opportunity to have a proper cooked meal on board, in a comfortable environment, just like the years of train travel gone by. The world might have progressed since then but peoples travel needs are still the same.

I suppose the argument is that the journey isn't as long time-wise so less need for on-board catering. Sad but that's "progress" for you.

[cornish trains jez]

I suppose the argument is that the journey isn't as long time-wise so less need for on-board catering. Sad but that's "progress" for you.

 

I agree, however, It would be interesting to run a survey to see how long on average passengers spend on board. If the results were to be positive, there could be a good argument for on board catering.

[billbedford]

What also baffles me is why we keep importing trains into the UK when we effectively invented the locomotive and have built many successful designs over the years. It would certainly make economical sense to build them here and create a whole load of new jobs.

 

 

We also invented banks that have non interest in supporting industry*

 

*from the 1850s since you asked.

I suppose the argument is that the journey isn't as long time-wise so less need for on-board catering. Sad but that's "progress" for you.

 

Is 4 hours a long journey?

[cornish trains jez]

 

 

 

 

Is 4 hours a long journey?

 

Yes! If it was across a lunchtime or dinner time, plenty of time for a nice tasty meal. There's something rather nice about having a meal whilst watching the countryside flying by the window.

[jjb1970]

I'll reserve judgement until I travel in one.

 

I've been as critical of the procurement process as anybody and think it is pretty much an object lesson in how not to acquire major assets. I still have doubts whether it is the right train. However, I also think that the train itself will probably be a well engineered and good quality piece of equipment given Hitachi's heritage in train building. I do think it is a good looking train but that is just personal opinion.

 

On catering, I think the market has changed. Many former inter-city routes are now de-facto high density commuting routes (for example, London - Bristol services which I used to use a lot) and also there does seem to have been a change in how people approach catering. I generally drop into one of the small outlets of the major supermarkets which now seem to be found in, or close to, most big-ish stations and buy a snack and a cold drink if I feel a need. And looking around me it seems to be the norm now. That said I'd agree that on-board restaurant services are a wonderful way to travel and eat.

[DY444]

I may have missed something along the way but did the train run into KX under it's own power or was it being propelled.

 

Jamie

 

I believe it ran under its own power using diesel mode.

[cheesysmith]

I'll reserve judgement until I travel in one.I've been as critical of the procurement process as anybody and think it is pretty much an object lesson in how not to acquire major assets. I still have doubts whether it is the right train. However, I also think that the train itself will probably be a well engineered and good quality piece of equipment given Hitachi's heritage in train building. I do think it is a good looking train but that is just personal opinion.On catering, I think the market has changed. Many former inter-city routes are now de-facto high density commuting routes (for example, London - Bristol services which I used to use a lot) and also there does seem to have been a change in how people approach catering. I generally drop into one of the small outlets of the major supermarkets which now seem to be found in, or close to, most big-ish stations and buy a snack and a cold drink if I feel a need. And looking around me it seems to be the norm now. That said I'd agree that on-board restaurant services are a wonderful way to travel and eat.

Catering on trains has gone downhill, along with anything resembling comfort if you are of above average height. And let's not get into the situation of trains being reserved upto the hilt with advance purchaise tickets, this negating the point of having a turn up and go service frequency because the company get to get more monies without having to share it that way.

 

As to these things, I do think they look okey, and when under electic mode they will certainly be good enough for shifting lots of London bound commuters. But they seem to have been specified for this, totally ignoring the fact this is supposed to be a INTERCITY train. And as to the asmatic performance in diesel mode, let's be honest, a HST or voyager will show one of these up. The point of a electro diesel unit was for extending the services where it isn't economical to put the wires. The few mins one of these can save between endinborough and London is lost when you extend them to Aberdeen.

 

We would have had a better train if they had put out a specification of "we want voyager type units with wider bodies, a transformer to feed a dc link, and a proven development of a product in the uk already". Just think how cheaper a voyager clone would have been. Without the tilt bits and a wider bodyshell, each intermediate car could have been 21m long, with a 22m long driving car. You could have had a 6 coach unit in the same lenth as a IEP. with the transformer under on coach, 2 pantographs at each end, 5 cummins diesel engines and space for 300 seats using the existing layout as virgin has. This could have been in service years ago for less than this is costing, and have better performance than a HST in diesel mode, so allowing you to run the services you've already got whilst waiting for the wires to go up.

[cornish trains jez]

Historical line up!

 

https://flic.kr/p/F22JKu

[stewartingram]

Historical line up!

 

https://flic.kr/p/F22JKu

 

What a tacky looking line up! Sir Nigel etc must be turning in their graves.

 

Stewart

[The Stationmaster]

Once more we see the greatness of the bearded one, Virgin takes over East Coast and within a matter of weeks he has delivered brand new swish inter-city bullet trains. With no help or involvement from anybody else. Why-oh-why can't he own all UK railways, and indeed just own the UK full stop?

 

'cos his little bit of 'tax movement methodology' has been caught out in the Budget?

[The Stationmaster]

The bit I find really amusing about this thing turning up for its bearded unveiling at the Cross is that it won't be entering ECML service until 2018.  This suggests to me that the razzamatazz was probably just a tad premature and will have the hilarious effect of passengers turning up for their trip on VTEC being disappointed when told they will have two years wait until one of these appears on their service. 

 

And having seen the VTEC livery 'in the flesh' for the first time today I was not surprised by how cheap and tacky it looks.. A 'bus belonging to (London) General standing at Ally Pally this morning showed how a red & white livery can be done tastefully and proved that it is possible to use the two together without it looking cheap. 

[4630]

. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by 4630

[bigP]

--

Edited January 31, 2021 by bigP
Deleted

[melmerby]

Wow that's a lengthy move.  Whatever happened to the link from North Pole to the West London line?  Was it taken out of use?

 

Cheers,

Paul

Maybe it hasn't been passed for these trains? (If it still exists!)

 

Keith

[Reorte]

Is 4 hours a long journey?

For that distance, not at all. As someone else has said though long enough that I'd regard catering as a worthwhile service, but how many people are doing the whole journey? And it's space on the train that makes more financial sense to be used for seating. At any rate those are the arguments I've heard for it dwindling away.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Reorte

[woodenhead]

I watched an interesting programme last night (recorded) about named trains and the presenter said catering didn't make a profit and went downhill fast once rates of pay went up in the 50/60s making the cost of running a full service exorbitant.

 

At the end of the day all franchises are about shifting people not feeding them a three course meal so if the demand isn't there to make it pay then it has to go.

 

There is a balance to strike and the Cross Country practice of having just a few sandwiches and one cookie shouldn't be the model adopted on the GWML.

[mjkerr]

Catering on trains has gone downhill

It really depends on what you are comparing

 

Inter-City (just prior to privitisation) was pay for everything

East Coast launched a trolley service (to standard) with the introduction of the IC225, a heavy workload for one person!

 

With privitisation West Coast and the introduction Voyager / Pendolino First Class ticket holders received complimentary meals

On East Coast complimentary drinks were offered, meals were still pay for

Sadly I have not travelled on East Coast since, the fares went up when complimentary meals were launched

Whilst I agree the value for money (smaller portions after breakfast) of those meals on West Coast has fallen, the breakfast has remained excellent value for money (between Glasgow and Euston you can have two)

 

Typically I am paying about an extra £30 for First Class, so to have two, three or four meals included it is well worth it

Sadly the removal of the fourth First Class coach on some sets (and the reservation system) is making it feel busier

[Glorious NSE]

They will just cram as many seats into the carriages as possible in order to maximise profit, and there will most probably be hikes in ticket prices too.....

 

What also baffles me is why we keep importing trains into the UK when we effectively invented the locomotive and have built many successful designs over the years. It would certainly make economical sense to build them here and create a whole load of new jobs.

1. If you read the Virgin press release it refers to them getting the best leg room in the UK - i'd agree with that if the interior projections are accurate as it would appear that standard and first both share the same leg room measurement! Not sure what GWR's interior will be yet, but it'd be lovely if they took that as a challenge!

 

2. Don't see why there would be a hike in ticket prices specifically linked to these, open tickets are regulated in price so can't be hiked beyond the rate that the government selects, advance tickets are all about getting bums on seats to use up spare capacity, and this fleet will increase the number of seats so that would be counterproductive...

 

3. The production build will be built (well, assembled) here in the UK, in a brand new factory, yes it will create a whole load of new jobs.

 

 

 And as to the asmatic performance in diesel mode, let's be honest, a HST or voyager will show one of these up.

 

I'm reserving judgement on that - certainly they will be shown up by a Voyager but those are generally regarded as being considerably overpowered, regularly running round with 25% of their power cut out and still able to comfortably keep timings!

 

I'm not sure they will be *that* different to an HST where it matters, at least on the East Coast. Might be a different matter if we don't get enough live wires on the Western quick enough though!