Oxfordrail Wagons

[Talltim]

I'd rather spend time playing with trains operating my layout than counting rivets, if it looks right it is right.

And if it doesn't look right?

(Not specifically these wagons, just in general)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...  I know of one modeler who has dropped an e-mail direct to the company and has not even received an acknowledgement... 

Here's one who has, a very prompt, polite and well considered reply from 'Tim'. It was clear from the reply that the model tooling was 'done' and unlikely to be revisited, but the coupler pocket mounting and coupler design could be looked at.

 

E-mail is in no way reliable. I once conducted a rigorous test for a major business and it managed just under 99% of the IT systems performance estimate, which estimate wasn't 100%....

[BlackRat]

From my research I have found there is no evidence that 5 of the proposed liveries that Oxford Rail are applying to the PO wagon were ever carried on the 1928 RCH version but were applied to the earlier version.

 

It is such a shame as Oxford Rail is on the doorstep of the Cardiff Maritime and Industrial Museum where the Gloucester Wagon archives are kept.  A quick trip down there by someone from Oxford Rail would have avoided all this controversy over this wagon.

 

Loconuts

I thought the museum had shut some time ago?

[melmerby]

And if it doesn't look right?

 

To whom?

 

Those that think 4' 1" track is not OK or those who can't see the water in the glasses in the loco, or those that say "that never worked there" etc. etc.

 

No model railway will ever be 100% right, most of us are using electrically powered steam or diesels, after all.

 

And another pet hate of mine:

I go to exhibitions and see P4 GWR layouts with 100% GWR rolling stock and structures, all exquisitely made, but no PO wagons. Where are they?

just look at any photo of pre BR goods yards and they are full of wagons from here there and everywhere, Operating company wagons are quite often a minority!

 

Keith

[petethemole]

Clearly some progress as they've fixed the bottom doors but not the strapping. One comment in Phil Parker's text is confusing, though:

 

 

Yes, it looks like a maker's plate but two or three plates for maker, owner and hire fleet are commonplace on Gloucester RC&W hired wagons with at least one on the body. They all look broadly similar but have different wording. I don't have a photo of this particular livery in my limited collection of PO wagon books, so it's not clear exactly what will be fixed.

 

Nick

 

I have the GRCW wagon book. The livery in question did have a maker's plate in the position shown. However it was applied to a wagon built in 1897.

 

Pete

[billbedford]

This is the typical attitude of the manufacturers, not just Oxford Rail. Take no care in what they produce, stick it on the market at a cheap price and we the modelers will purchase it.

 

 

If you want something more accurate there is still the ABS kit. I would have thought that with the amount of bitching about RTR wagon in this thread he would have been inundated with new orders......

[buffalo]

Thanks, Pete, I missed that one! If you look carefully, you'll see the the pattern of wording is different. Compare the plates with those on the Leadbetter wagon above on the same page. The one on the body looks like a hire fleet number. As you say, though, a quite different wagon.

 

Nick

[Adam]

It is such a shame as Oxford Rail is on the doorstep of the Cardiff Maritime and Industrial Museum where the Gloucester Wagon archives are kept.  A quick trip down there by someone from Oxford Rail would have avoided all this controversy over this wagon.

 

Loconuts

 

? The GRCW archives are held in the Gloucestershire Archives at Gloucester, some two and a half thousand accessioned items: so far as I know they were accessioned directly from GRCW and have never been held anywhere else. The former maritime and industrial museum might have had copies of some of this documentation but the originals lie in Gloucester.

 

In any case, this purports to be a 1923 RCH spec' wagon: plenty of builders made them with only relatively minor variations, any number of drawings survive in various collections, in archives, with the HMRS and so on and, of course, there are quite a few of the wagons themselves in varying states of preservation. Oxford have clearly based their model on one with an unusual modification to the corner plates, probably originating with its last owners, the NCB. Suits me, I might have a couple for my internal user fleet for which they'd get a full repaint as well as regauging to EM, just because that's what I do. Observational evidence suggests that the core market for 'pretty' PO liveries is not that bothered by this sort of thing and that's fair enough.

 

Quite why they did that rather than use a drawing I'm not sure: perhaps their usual mode of working is based on the real thing?

 

Adam

[Arthur]

 

Adding to Adam's post, the Cardiff museum closed as long ago as 1998. Its collections and archives are now held at the National Museum of Wales resource centre at Nantgarw which, as far as I am aware, is accessible by appointment only.

[buffalo]

Adam is quite right about the sources, but the simple fact is that primary records research is really not essential to produce a good representation of PO wagons. A great deal of has already been done for us. There are numerous books on the subject with drawings, photos, details of what liveries were applied when and, often, brief company histories. I only have about six of these books but there must three or four times as many available to anyone who wants to produce a wagon.

 

Nick

[Arthur]

And if it doesn't look right?

(Not specifically these wagons, just in general)

Well that's 100% subjective. What might look right, and therefore acceptable to me, might not look right to someone with a greater knowledge of that particular prototype. I have my own particular spheres of interest where inaccuracies would glare at me whilst many others wouldn't know the difference.

 

I have no particular expertise with these wagons and, in the absence of the discussion here, wouldn't have been aware of the detail innaccurcies. I'll probably still buy some for two reasons, firstly, still, to my eye they look 'right' enough, and secondly, with a fairly large project in mind, I can quickly obtain a small 'fleet'.

 

Would I rather that they were totally accurate straight from the box?, yes, of course, but they will be what they will be.

 

I've got a lot of other modelling work to do, I have to ask myself, 'do I find these wagons sufficiently poor that I want to allocate some my finite time to building better kits?'.

[Adam]

I was addressing a specific point Nick, and of course, you are absolutely right; there is no shortage of 'in print' material should anyone wish to consult it, and of course, we're hardly short of kits and RTR items, from Bachmann, most recently, and that more than a decade ago - from those who have presumably done just that.

 

Adam

[BlackRat]

Adding to Adam's post, the Cardiff museum closed as long ago as 1998. Its collections and archives are now held at the National Museum of Wales resource centre at Nantgarw which, as far as I am aware, is accessible by appointment only.

Thanks mate, just as I thought!

[cheesysmith]

I for one think that if they do come with 3links fitted, it will be a major step up, and at least they can claim the realistic coupling in RTR. I can't think off the top of my head any other RTR model wagon that has come with such fitted.

[PhilJ W]

And if it doesn't look right?

(Not specifically these wagons, just in general)

If something on my layout doesn't look right I change it if I can, rolling stock or other 'portables' are replaced and relegated to the store cupboard or club sales stand. Items of a more permanent nature such as scenery is changed as and when possible, usually if it is damaged/looking tired/no longer needed due to other changes. I am not a perfectionist and my modeling skills are modest but I do try to give a good impression of what the real thing was like.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I for one think that if they do come with 3links fitted, it will be a major step up, and at least they can claim the realistic coupling in RTR. I can't think off the top of my head any other RTR model wagon that has come with such fitted.

Bachmann have been releasing knuckle coupled wagons with their model knuckle coupler mounted in the bufferbeam for the best part of a decade, so that 'realistic coupling in OO RTR' slot is already long taken.

 

It's simply a mediocre product; where for the same tooling cost it could have been a class leader, especially if they had gone for a subject not already available RTR. Judged against the ambition published on their website, I feel they are not making their case.

[Neal Ball]

I think I can safely now answer my question... after 116 posts :-)

 

No-one has seen these wagons yet then.... various points are still being adjusted and they will hit the shops..... when they are ready :-)

[Loconuts]

If you want something more accurate there is still the ABS kit. I would have thought that with the amount of bitching about RTR wagon in this thread he would have been inundated with new orders......

Not available, no sales due to all the RTR incorrect versions hitting the market.  Plenty of other kits around though.

 

I stand corrected on the whereabouts of the Gloucester wagon archives, my information was pre-1998.

 

As for 'if it looks right therefore it is right', that does not hold true.  Stan Beeson built many a fine loco but they had errors.  He would make a part to scale but if it did not look right he would adjust the sizes until it did look right.  I have done this myself with a GWR 517 where the turning I made from the official drawing looked a bit tall and spindly.  I returned it slightly shorter and a bigger diameter, the result was it looked better than the correct one and more of a match to photographs.

 

Loconuts

[Arthur]

 

Nobody has said 'if it looks right, it is right', rather more, 'if it looks right to an individual, it's then acceptable to that individual'. It's two different things and the latter is dependent on your familiarity and depth of knowledge of the prototype.

[GNR Dave]

I know they're only samples, but they seem to have the same problem as Dapol's wagons, in that the paint used for white lettering isn't dense enough to cover the colour of the basecoat resulting in pink lettering on a red wagon. Bachmann and Hornby wagons don't seem to suffer from this.

[buffalo]

I know they're only samples, but they seem to have the same problem as Dapol's wagons, in that the paint used for white lettering isn't dense enough to cover the colour of the basecoat resulting in pink lettering on a red wagon. Bachmann and Hornby wagons don't seem to suffer from this.

Read the text! They are aware of and are addressing that issue.

 

Nick

[cheesysmith]

Bachmann have been releasing knuckle coupled wagons with their model knuckle coupler mounted in the bufferbeam for the best part of a decade, so that 'realistic coupling in OO RTR' slot is already long taken.

 

It's simply a mediocre product; where for the same tooling cost it could have been a class leader, especially if they had gone for a subject not already available RTR. Judged against the ambition published on their website, I feel they are not making their case.

I have to agree with you about the opportunity lost here. Starting from a blank canvas, as it were, they had a chance to leapfrog ahead of the other manufacturers, instead of another "almost" model. Me, if they changed it to remove the top capping strap, the extra plate in the corners, and got rid of the line/grove in the buffer beam I think it would answer most of the complaints here.

 

I think I'll wait until its released before I make up my mind though.

 

Ps- the HTA with the knuckle coupler on the buffer beam, would that count as scale, as I think they just used the HO one?

If they can make a better model than the competition with a low RRP, that would be a eye opener.

[Dunsignalling]

Nobody has said 'if it looks right, it is right', rather more, 'if it looks right to an individual, it's then acceptable to that individual'. It's two different things and the latter is dependent on your familiarity and depth of knowledge of the prototype.

And the distance from which you/he/she will be observing it. On a layout of any size one seldom gets close enough to see if a wagon has a capping strip, let alone how it appears to be attached! 

 

I entirely agree that we should try to help manufacturers avoid making errors but, when a high proportion of the liveries applied to r-t-r models purporting to be 1923 PO wagons are anachronistic (i.e. on the wrong sort of wagon) or conjectural (based on somewhat sketchy information and/or monochrome photos), does the inclusion of a few small fittings added when the prototypes were 15-20 years old really deserve the amount of flak it is attracting?

 

Removing the offending clips and retouching the finish is the work of minutes. I often have to change buffers on r-t-r models to reflect what BR did when adding AVB to Big Four wagons/vans in the fifties, it just goes with the era I wish to portray. Is this any different?

 

 

John

[Combe Martin]

If I was one of those that had committed myself to buying one or several of Oxford Rail's Adams Radial, I'd now be a bit worried about what I was going to get. Comments in this thread and over on MREmag (where there is one suggestion that there is some 30 errors) about the accuracy of this wagon suggest that Oxford Rail have rather skimped on their research & development process. Given that R&D costs (if done properly) can be very high and need to be re-couped via the retail price, maybe this why the quoted retail figure is so low. Bachmann's price of about 50% more for their (well received) version of this wagon is maybe a more realistic price for something that's accurate.

 

Yes, I'm sure this wagon with it's inaccuracies will sell at this price to those that don't care, or don't know, or are buying a nice fancy wagon for little Harry, but I'd be in the wait and see camp before buying any Oxford Rail product.

 

Some have suggested 'does it matter', and 'well Hornby get away with selling inaccurate PO wagons', but those Hornby products are from much earlier tooling when we all didn't care so much. When Hornby produce a new tooling model now, it's virtually spot on, and gets a very good review, just look at their recent releases . If they didn't they get slagged off here.

 

And this is just a simple wagon. Producing a much bigger model (a loco) that is accurate and that has a WELL WORKING MECHANISM that runs properly and reliably is a different matter.

 

Oxford Rail havn't produced any working railway product under their own name for the UK market yet. Don't get me wrong, I wish them every success, but comments suggesting that some buyers are going to buy their Adams Radial rather than Hornby's (after all, it's bound to be better and is going to be cheaper) are a wee bit premature I think.

 

You should all reserve judgement and wait and see.

[Mike Bellamy]

Comments in this thread and over on MREmag (where there is one suggestion that there is some 30 errors) about the accuracy of this wagon suggest that Oxford Rail have rather skimped on their research & development process.

The gentleman concerned has a history of listing all the faults on new projects. It would be interesting to see a similar list of all the faults in the current offerings from Hornby and Bachmann - are they really as perfect as some make out - or is it just that some modellers are so set in their ways that they can't accept criticism of anything in a blue (or red) box ?