Rapido/Locomotion Models GNR Stirling Single

[Phil Parker]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is annoyed by the fact that so many online reviews require about half the video before the model comes out of the box...

 

There is an element of getting what you paid for here. YouTube doesn't monetarize short videos in the same way as it does long ones, so the incentive is to pad the footage. You can either do that with research and information or squealing about the box. Guess which is easier?  The makers will want to get a return on their efforts, and if people won't pay for properly researched content, then the money needs to come in via advertising and that means gaming YouTubes adverts. 

[AndyID]

I'm not aware of a Duette having any hidden black magic in its output, especially if you avoid selecting half-wave. It's not like some fancy electronic thing with pulsed output or enhanced feedback. What's the alleged risk / problem?

 

I believe a Duette outputs full-wave rectified DC in which case the peak voltages can be rather high, possibly high enough to cause insulation breakdown in some motor windings. That might have been the concern, but it's pure speculation on my part.

 

For a new model like that I'd be inclined to run it initially on a well regulated, smoothed DC supply, with a voltmeter and an ammeter to monitor what's going on.

[Edwardian]

I suggest a separate thread for the politics and philosophy of modelling (Who knew there was such a chimera..?).....meanwhile...   

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

...back to the actal subject of this thread, namely the Stirling Single. 

 

     I am happy to admit to a general paucity of knowledge about the GNR (I'm more centred on the GWR.), and was attracted to this model as it's that great rarity - a single - and a prodigiously handsome one at that. I'm glad that the model is supplied with the correct larger tender that seems to feature in all the original photos I've seen of the machines in service. However - I have noted that this basic design of the loco' underwent a number of variations and modifications, such as solid splashers, filled-in splashers, and the later addition of domes etc. 

     My question then, for the more informed here is ;- Of the 53 built, how many were identical to No.1...and where can I view an original image for verification? Armed with this knowledge, I will then be able to renumber without any further modification. I'd prefer one that had some interesting history or event included in it's antecedents - other than No.1 itself. Thus far, I've manages to find images of a few below. My current favourite is No.5, as it's the simplest to renumber. Any suggestions gratefully received ;-

 

5;-      https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4341/36653098815_170dd79468_b.jpg

5;-      https://www.mediastorehouse.com/mary-evans-prints-online/national-archives/gnr-stirling-single-locomotive-7402203.html

 

22;-    https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrJ7B1LSDtbTdUAbyxNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTIzbDAwcWNpBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM0ODQxYTUzNmUzYzcyODhiYjEwNTI2YzgxZTcyZjMyZARncG9zAzk1BGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DGNR%2BStirling%2BSingle%26fr%3Dyfp-t%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D95&w=1024&h=645&imgurl=farm6.static.flickr.com%2F5110%2F5674005032_51d2f3b2ef_b.jpg&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fhiveminer.com%2FTags%2Flocomotive%2Cpregrouping%2FRecent&size=286.9KB&name=The+World%26%2339%3Bs+most+recently+posted+photos+of+locomotive+and+...&p=GNR+Stirling+Single&oid=4841a536e3c7288bb10526c81e72f32d&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t&tt=The+World%26%2339%3Bs+most+recently+posted+photos+of+locomotive+and+...&b=61&ni=21&no=95&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11oh9fg98&sigb=13kjrrmv4&sigi=11ou4jo44&sigt=121j208sr&sign=121j208sr&.crumb=4mUpaygj6e3&fr=yfp-t&fr2=piv-web

93;-    https://www.gnbooks.co.uk/product/the-golden-age-of-yorkshire-railways/

 

221;- GNR_221_KX_(Bird,_1910).jpg

 

548;- GNR_548_(Bird,_1910).jpg

 

1001;- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:4-2-2_GNR_1001.jpg

 

1003;- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/4-2-2_GNR_1003.jpg

 

Thanks in anticipation...    

 

Volume 2 of the RCTS Great Northern Locomotive History will get you where you need to go.

 

I am away from home and my books and notes. Ostensibly any of the early series should be possible, though an exact match to the existing tooling I would need to think about; the combination of an un-blanked slotted splasher and some of the other features of the preserved loco is something that needs thinking about with the info to hand.

 

These locos were built in a number of batches over a long period, the best I can do right now is link back to my own earlier conversion musings, as this does, at least cover some of the history and variants: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98067-rapidolocomotion-models-gnr-stirling-single/?p=2963307

Edited July 3, 2018 by Edwardian

[JSpencer]

I;ve got a feeling that I'm gonna have a singles night when mine arrives. 

[Guest spet0114]

Beyond my meagre technical knowledge to explain, but I was strongly advised not to use the Duette with the DCC version.  It was their model, after all!

 

The same was true of the APT-E.  I tried my DCC version with an old Tri-ang controller and a Duette. It misbehaved with both.

 

The best (only) explanation I've received is that the output of older controllers has, in addition to the DC, a fair bit of high frequency AC noise which interferes with the DCC decoder. More modern controllers filter this out.

 

The good news is that when I subsequently used my APT with a more modern DC controller, it worked perfectly, indicating that the old transformers had done no lasting damage.

Edited July 3, 2018 by spet0114

[Revolution Ben]

Hi folks,

 

The Single looks lovely.

 

Re using older DC controllers with DCC Sound models.  When we tested out the DCC Sound N Gauge Pendolino (manufactured by Rapido too, of course) we blew a couple of DCC Sound decoders with "older" controllers. Under measurement we found they were sending out the occasional very nasty voltage spike.

 

If you're determined to use a 40-year-old Duette then go for the DC Silent model.  But if you're spending the extra on a DCC Sound loco then why not spend a few quid on a DCC controller that enables you to enjoy all the functionality?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Ben A

[Steamport Southport]

I don't know why people still use old electrical equipment. It just seems like a false economy in that they might work, but you aren't getting full potential. Possibly alright if you are just using old Triang or Hornby Dublo, but we are talking about models costing £200+. It's a bit like filling a Ferrari with cheap petrol, it will go but it's not going to perform.

 

I'm not saying go DCC, just buy a more modern controller. You can get a decent Gaugemaster one for about the price of a RTR tank locomotive.

 

 

Would you still use a fifty year old TV? I certainly wouldn't.

 

 

 

Jason

[AndyID]

The best (only) explanation I've received is that the output of older controllers has, in addition to the DC, a fair bit of high frequency AC noise which interferes with the DCC decoder. More modern controllers filter this out.

 

 

That sounds about right. There will be a 100 Hz stream of "humps" (sorry about that) and potentially a lot of ugly harmonics that the decoder might misinterpret as actual DCC commands. A well regulated DC controller won't do that. It will produce a "flat" DC voltage - bit like a battery.

[Methuselah]

Hi methuselah

 

I think Dave (Chris P Bacon) can help there, he’s bought 2 with a view to renumbering one. I asked him if he was going to add a dome - paraphrasing the reply, he said no (but with more words)

 

....sounds like he wants a double-header too.....

[gr.king]

I don't know why people still use old electrical equipment. It just seems like a false economy in that they might work, but you aren't getting full potential. Possibly alright if you are just using old Triang or Hornby Dublo, but we are talking about models costing £200+. It's a bit like filling a Ferrari with cheap petrol, it will go but it's not going to perform.

 

I'm not saying go DCC, just buy a more modern controller. You can get a decent Gaugemaster one for about the price of a RTR tank locomotive.

 

 

Would you still use a fifty year old TV? I certainly wouldn't.

 

 

 

Jason

Not my way of looking at things at all. If I buy something I expect it to last and last, in service. That's not false economy at all. Replace only when essential, i.e. when the item has finally become totally useless and beyond repair.

 

 

That sounds about right. There will be a 100 Hz stream of "humps" (sorry about that) and potentially a lot of ugly harmonics that the decoder might misinterpret as actual DCC commands. A well regulated DC controller won't do that. It will produce a "flat" DC voltage - bit like a battery.

From my point of view another very good reason to avoid the expense of chips altogether, and if the motor itself can't even stand up to a bit of un-smoothed voltage then it's not worth having.

[Colin_McLeod]

Something might last and last and keep working but that would be to the original spec. There is also upgrading to consider. A new one could be better and not just a replacement.

 

Do you still use the (still working) black and white TV that you got with the Duette or did you upgrade to colour?

[JSpencer]

That sounds about right. There will be a 100 Hz stream of "humps" (sorry about that) and potentially a lot of ugly harmonics that the decoder might misinterpret as actual DCC commands. A well regulated DC controller won't do that. It will produce a "flat" DC voltage - bit like a battery.

 

A modern DC controller sends out pulses. It becomes flat only when at full speed otherwise there are gaps (smaller pulses for lower speeds). I found gaugemaster never had the guts for a Wrenn but I do not run Wrenn & Triang anymore.

 

The old H&M chucks out a hefty voltage with resistance switched off. Even the lowest setting will send a Dapol B4 or Hattons P rushing around the layout. But useful for those meaty Heljan motors in their diesels.

Put on the resistance brings those locos under control, but the controler heats up, resistance increases, and I find a dip on track power (suddenly locos will start crawling instead of coasting) after 10 minutes.

 

Half wave makes everything hot. A great way to make sure any motor burns out.

 

For DCC, I use purely a DCC controler, Hornby's E-lite, yeah I should replace that and the H&Ms (1 duette, 2 singles, 1 add on pack) but too many nice locos coming out right now so maybe in 2019 (a gaugemaster D, will save a lot of space too).

[cctransuk]

A modern DC controller sends out pulses. It becomes flat only when at full speed otherwise there are gaps (smaller pulses for lower speeds). I found gaugemaster never had the guts for a Wrenn but I do not run Wrenn & Triang anymore.

 

The old H&M chucks out a hefty voltage with resistance switched off. Even the lowest setting will send a Dapol B4 or Hattons P rushing around the layout. But useful for those meaty Heljan motors in their diesels.

Put on the resistance brings those locos under control, but the controler heats up, resistance increases, and I find a dip on track power (suddenly locos will start crawling instead of coasting) after 10 minutes.

 

Half wave makes everything hot. A great way to make sure any motor burns out.

 

For DCC, I use purely a DCC controler, Hornby's E-lite, yeah I should replace that and the H&Ms (1 duette, 2 singles, 1 add on pack) but too many nice locos coming out right now so maybe in 2019 (a gaugemaster D, will save a lot of space too).

 

Since older and more recent DC locos seem to have different power / control requirements, it is perfectly possible to have two or more controllers with a selector switched supply to the track.

 

This way, the selected transformer / controller can be matched to the requirements of the loco in use.

 

It works for me !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited July 4, 2018 by cctransuk

[CrisisOnACanoe]

Hi all, just to bring the topic back to the Single, I've seen people have been claiming to order it as recently as a week ago, despite Locomotion's site saying it's unavailable unless previously ordered.
Does anyone think they could help me with ordering - or at least telling me what the situation is - if possible? Locomotion's communication system seems to be pretty spotty at the best of times (understandably) and I'm keen to secure my Single. 

(As for why I didn't order it before, I didn't expect it to be as good as it is, and pregrouping wasn't my scene a couple of years back. I have been told by Locomotion that there will be some available, but they don't provide any further information.)

Edited July 4, 2018 by CrisisOnACanoe

[JSpencer]

Since older and more recent DC locos seem to have different power / control requirements, it is perfectly possible to have two or more controllers with a selector switched supply to the track.

 

This way, the selected transformer / controller can be matched to the requirements of the loco in use.

 

It works for me !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

That's how I switch from DC to DCC mode. Any of the 6 controllers can control any section of track.

[Ian Hargrave]

Hi all, just to bring the topic back to the Single, I've seen people have been claiming to order it as recently as a week ago, despite Locomotion's site saying it's unavailable unless previously ordered.

Does anyone think they could help me with ordering - or at least telling me what the situation is - if possible? Locomotion's communication system seems to be pretty spotty at the best of times (understandably) and I'm keen to secure my Single. 

(As for why I didn't order it before, I didn't expect it to be as good as it is, and pregrouping wasn't my scene a couple of years back. I have been told by Locomotion that there will be some available, but they don't provide any further information.)

Keep trying .You may strike it lucky by phone eventually.If persistent you might just get a result.

[Edwardian]

Apropos controllers, the Duette in my case is a temporary expedient; I have not even finished the track laying inasmuch as a couple of the bull head turnouts probably need some re-building, and I have yet to complete wiring or address point control.  It's basically rigged only for testing.  I will treat myself to something more modern in due course. 

 

I am told that a basic Bachmann train-set controller will be fine for running the sound version in DC mode.  Currently in the catalogue for about £20, I believe.

 

In the meantime, it was good to see these two together  ....

 

 

[Revolution Ben]

....Replace only when essential, i.e. when the item has finally become totally useless.... <snipped>

If your old controller is burning out your new locos then surely it is totally useless? Or at least no longer fit for purpose.

 

And no one is talking about burning out motors here, the issue is running DCC Sound models with DC Controllers, and why the delicate electronics in the chip can be fried by an unexpected voltage spike.

 

It's a bit like wondering why your modern car breaks down when you fill it with 4-star petrol.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[AndyID]

And no one is talking about burning out motors here,

 

Guilty as charged. 'twas a bum-steer on my part

[gr.king]

If your old controller is burning out your new locos then surely it is totally useless? Or at least no longer fit for purpose.

 

Ben A.

If and only if. My Duette, more than once DIY repaired, & still occasionally used, has never exhibited such unpleasant behaviour. Same goes for a pair of H & M Clippers. Careful use and the avoidance of unnecessary and highly vulnerable digital gizmos keeps my modelling life cheap and simple. Electronic hand-held controllers fed from the uncontrolled outputs on the same transformer / controllers do offer alternative more refined control of the more modern model locos, when and where required, but my old H & Ms remain viable.

Edited July 4, 2018 by gr.king

[Revolution Ben]

If and only if. My Duette, more than once DIY repaired, & still occasionally used, has never exhibited such unpleasant behaviour. Same goes for a pair of H & M Clippers. Careful use and the avoidance of unnecessary and highly vulnerable digital gizmos keeps my modelling life cheap and simple.

That's excellent. But just to be clear, my remarks were intended to assist those querying the use of the latest DCC Sound locos with older controllers.

 

As you said you avoid vulnerable digital gizmos then the basic DC SIlent model will be fine with your cheap and simple controllers.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[dibber25]

I'm not aware of a Duette having any hidden black magic in its output, especially if you avoid selecting half-wave. It's not like some fancy electronic thing with pulsed output or enhanced feedback. What's the alleged risk / problem?

 

As I understand it, it's the power that the old controllers put out - they had to shift vintage Hornby-Dublo motors, remember. Rapido use very small modern motors (including careless in some models) which do not take kindly to old controllers. Even some of the first generation DCC systems have the power to turn Rapido guys white at their very mention! (CJL)

[adb968008]

Reading this I see there’s still some diehards here, just to fully flesh it out, anyone still using an old Dublo controller...or even a battery powered controller ?

(I still have a 9v Duracell battery handy for those quick test locos, and will take one with me to exhibitions to test second hand purchases by putting the two terminals on the wheels)

[Colin_McLeod]

As I understand it, it's the power that the old controllers put out - they had to shift vintage Hornby-Dublo motors, remember. Rapido use very small modern motors (including careless in some models) which do not take kindly to old controllers. Even some of the first generation DCC systems have the power to turn Rapido guys white at their very mention! (CJL)

This is worrying. Can someone elaborate on which early DCC systems are risky to which Rapido locomotives?

 

 

PS if they used "careful" motors instead of "careless" ones there might be less problems. LOL

Edited July 4, 2018 by Colin_McLeod

[robmcg]

Anyone with an update on availability of this model to those who haven't made a deposit?

 

TIA