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45 ton Ransomes Crane





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#51 Dunsignalling

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 15:46

I've had a look around online and can't really find an answer, were they always self propelled or did locos move them about to get them around quicker? I would assume so as the model is going to be unpowered?

They were only self-propelled to a degree that enabled them to manoeuvre within a worksite.

 

Transit moves always required loco haulage.

 

John


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#52 GreenGiraffe22

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 15:50

They were only self-propelled to a degree that enabled them to manoeuvre within a worksite.

Transit moves always required loco haulage.

John


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#53 Ramrig

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 19:55

These vehicles had, I believe, minor differences from owner to owner and period to period. Was any mention made of which owner/period the model would cover?

Regards

 

Only at EP stage. No decorated samples as yet. Delivery due 3rd Quarter of 2018 if I remember correctly



#54 PenrithBeacon

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:53

Only at EP stage. No decorated samples as yet. Delivery due 3rd Quarter of 2018 if I remember correctly


I'm not at present to fussed about liveries, I'd just like to know which prototype this model is intended to portray.The were never very many of them and I get the impression that there were detail differences from order to order.

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#55 Poor Old Bruce

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:55

When was the red livery introduced?

 

AFAIK the first red cranes were the then new 30T and 75T cranes of 1961/2. Other cranes recieved red livery after overhauls thereafter.

 

I will be getting one, and do except to be paying £200~ for it. Simply because it's highly unlikely that another company will think of doing a new crane any time soon. However I would like to know if 45t ransomes was ever based in or near Leicester MML?

 

Doubtful. Derby had a 40T R&R crane, uprated from 36T prewar which ended up at Banbury. Derby also had one of the 75T cranes form new (RS1092/75) which later moved to Toton.

 

I've had a look around online and can't really find an answer, were they always self propelled or did locos move them about to get them around quicker? I would assume so as the model is going to be unpowered?

 

As has already been said, the cranes did have a 'travelling' mode but this was only for use on site and was less than walking pace.

 

The Bachmann model seems to represent the war time built 45 ton Ranson & Rapier cranes. 10 were bulit, 6 went to the MoS, 1 to the WO , 2 to LNER and 1 to the SR. 

               

The 3 that ended up on BR were

LNER No 941601, later BR 1st No 331102, 2nd No ADRR 95214, stationed at Kings Cross 1943 -61, Grimesthorpe 61-65 and Tinsley 65 to 85 when withdrawn.

LNER No 951516, later BR 1st No 122 (ER number) 2nd No RS1083/45 (LMR number, 1958) 3rd No ADM1083, 4th No ADRR 95215, stationed at Gorton 1943 to 1965 (in 1958 Gorton became an LMR shed) and Newton Heath 1965 to 79.

SR No 1580S, later BR 1st No DS1580 (Sr number), 2nd 151 (WR number, 1963), 3rd ADRR 95216, stationed at Exmouth Junction 1945 to 64 (in 1963 exmouth Junction became a WR shed), Newton Abbot 65-69, Laira 71-79 being withdrawn from Old Oak Common in 1983.

 

All three are persevered along with a MOS crane number WD214. 

 

One possible problem is that R&R may have only supplied the crane and Stokes (relieving) Bogies. The companies often provided their own jib runners.


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#56 craneman

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:18

Hi all

Is this crane going to be vastly different to the Hornby crane? I don't mean detail wise. 30 years dictates that this will be superior in that respect lol. But is it a hugely different machine to that one or are they pretty similar?

Thanks

 
Yes, chalk and cheese spring to mind.
 
The Hornby model is a radically compromised representation of a 75-ton Cowans Sheldon design introduced in 1960 and in service (in steam powered form as loosely modelled) until 1976 or so.
The Bachmann model is a highly accurate representation of a 45-ton Ransomes & Rapier design introduced in 1940 and in service in steam powered form (steam only - none was ever converted) until 1989.
 
One is a model, the other a toy!

 

...
 
The same bloke who invented the weight relieving bogie, Sir Fredrick Stokes, was the inventor of the modern mortar. :yes:


Close. It was Wilfrid S Stokes, a Director of Ransomes & Rapier Ltd, who invented both. Stokes had been New Works Engineer for the GWR before moving to Ransomes & Rapier in 1896. He was, incidentally, knighted for his invention of the Stokes mortar in 1914, this becoming the standard British gun of the First World War.

 

...

I am trying to confirm if the Ransomes crane Bachmann are producing would be suitable to model the Laira (or Newton Abbot?) crane in 1947?


In a word - no. Laira didn't get a breakdown crane unitl 1963 when it received ex-GWR 18, which stayed until 1965.  In 1972 this was replaced by ex-GWR 19 which stayed until 1987, in latter years carrying yellow livery (the only R&R 45-tonner to do so).  The Bachmann model is structurally accurate for both of these. No 18 is currently extant unrestored at Carnforth, and No 19 is preserved at the Flour Mill.
 
Newton Abbot had variously at around this time GWR 8, a Cowans Sheldon 15 ton crane (like the D&S Models kit) and/or GWR 9, a Cowans Sheldon 35 ton crane (ex-Caerphilly). Fromt he mid-'50s to the mid-'60s it had ex-GWR No 3, a 36-ton Ransomes & Rapier crane. None of these resemble the Bachmann model.
In 1965 the ex-SR crane DS1580 moved to Newton Abbot upon closure of Exmouth Junction, staying at Newton Abbot until 1972 when it went to Laira. This crane, though very similar to the Bachmann model, differs in that it, in common with the MoS 45-tonners, had the hydraulic loading mechanism on the relieving bogies (not the earlier manual system). 1580 also uniquely had BFB wheels. DS1580 was the only 45-ton R&R crane to operate on the mainline which had hydraulic RBs and it seems unlikely that Bachmann will retool the relieving bogie to produce a model of a single unique crane.  DS1580  is preserved and operating on the Mid-Hants railway.
 
That being said, from 1940 onwards it is entirely plausible that a GW 45-ton crane would have been deployed anywhere needed, and in 1947 the nearest (to NA or Plymouth) was No 19 at Bristol to 1948 then at Swindon CWA, or No 18 at Canton. It is highly likely that one or other or both of these would have been seen at Laira if needed on the far West country. Certainly no-body could tell you it didn't happen.
 
It is worth remembering that one of the reasons that this design was produced (and a requirement of the pre-war Railway Technical Committee for Air Raid Precautions, which drove the design) was that it conformed to the British Composite Loading Gauge and had both dimensions and axle loadings which allowed the cranes to travel anywhere on the UK mainline railways, including LPTB lines (and the Hastings line). They were (and are) physically smaller and lighted on the axles than the massive GWR 36-tonners which spawned them, and the 36-tonners were allowed over all mainline GWR routes in the West Country, including over the Tamar Bridge.
 

.
 
I think the colour schemes, stripes, insignias and home depot markings are a real problem for Bachmann.
 
...

Are they just going to produce two/four liveries or small runs of lots of different liveries ?  I would hate to be the person making that decision.


Problem or opportunity?
 
Let's think about liveries for a moment.  The model, taken with the tooling options visible in the Warley photos, allows an accurate model to be produced of any of eight cranes, namely the first order of six for "British Railways", of which four went to the GWR and two to the Southern, plus the two from the second order for the Ministry of Supply, both of which went to the LNER to replace two conscripted cranes, (The model from what has been seen so far does not allow any of the seven subsequent MoS/WD cranes or the Southern's DS1580 to be modelled, since these all had significantly different relieving bogies).
 
These 8 cranes between them, over their working lives and allocations, would have been seen in GWR grey, SR grey, LNER grey, GWR black, SR black, LNER black, BR(S) red, BR(E) red, BR(M) red, and BR(W) yellow. Assuming that the tooling options allow for the difference evolutionary changes that took place, that means that there is a huge variety of historically accurate models which Bachmann could, if they chose, produce. The livery details are also complex, due largely to the fact that cranes were generally painted locally and seldom were two alike. Furthermore there are differences such as the fact that the Western refused to follow the 1953 "Ad-Hoc Committee" directive to repaint cranes in morale-boosting red, and steadfastly left theirs black, not only that, but their pre-grouping individuality meant that no black BR(W) crane ever received a BR totem of any kind. The SR and LNER cranes carried differend totem at various times, adding further variations.
 
There are probably 30 or more different, historically accurate, combinations which could be produced, which is surely useful if you want a good ROI on your tooling.

 

If the notes I jotted down at the time of the original announcement are (still) correct, 38-802, the BR late crest model in black, will be of the ex-SR Exmouth Junction crane nowadays based on the Mid Hants Railway.
...


Unlikely, given the relieving bogie issue mentioned above. It will probably be S1560 or S1561.

 

The Bachmann model seems to represent the war time built 45 ton Ranson & Rapier cranes. 10 were bulit, 6 went to the MoS, 1 to the WO , 2 to LNER and 1 to the SR. 
               
The 3 that ended up on BR were
LNER No 941601, later BR 1st No 331102, 2nd No ADRR 95214, stationed at Kings Cross 1943 -61, Grimesthorpe 61-65 and Tinsley 65 to 85 when withdrawn.
LNER No 951516, later BR 1st No 122 (ER number) 2nd No RS1083/45 (LMR number, 1958) 3rd No ADM1083, 4th No ADRR 95215, stationed at Gorton 1943 to 1965 (in 1958 Gorton became an LMR shed) and Newton Heath 1965 to 79.
SR No 1580S, later BR 1st No DS1580 (Sr number), 2nd 151 (WR number, 1963), 3rd ADRR 95216, stationed at Exmouth Junction 1945 to 64 (in 1963 exmouth Junction became a WR shed), Newton Abbot 65-69, Laira 71-79 being withdrawn from Old Oak Common in 1983.
 
All three are persevered along with a MOS crane number WD214.



Not quite.

There were 16 cranes built essentially to this design.

 

The first order, for six cranes, was placed in 1939 on the authority of and paid for by the Goverrnment as a result of the Railway Technical Committee's recommendations for ensuring that the railways could survive the effects of air raids. The RTC recommended that 24 cranes should be ordered from two suppliers, in the event 12 cranes were authorised, six each from Ransomes & Rapier and Cowans Sheldon. All were to be 45-ton capacity , to conform to the British Composite Loacding Gauge, and to have a 15-ton axle loading to allow almost total route availability. The only cranes of relevance to this discussion are the R&R six.

 

These were delivered in 1939/40, and four were supplied to the GWR (allegedly against the GWR's will since it felt it already had adequate craneage) and two to the SR.   

 

In 1942 the Ministry of Supply ordered two further cranes from R&R to essentially the same design which were delivered to the LNER as direct replacements for two Cowans Sheldon cranes which had been requisitioned, converted to oil-firing, and shipped to the Middle East. The two LNER cranes differed from the earlier six in monor ways, the most conspicuous beign that the steam chests had moved outside the frame plates of the crab and the vales were operated by rocking levers (the first six has the steam chests inside the crab).

 

Some time later the MoS ordered seven further cranes for the military, and finally in 1945 the SR ordered one further crane. These had outside steam chests as per the LNER pair, but also had hydraulic loading systems on the relieving bogies instead of the earlier manual system. The relieving bogies are significantly different as a result. The final SR crane also has Bulleid-Firth-Brown cast wheelsets on the crane and relieving bogies (but not the jib runner).

 

The tooling seen in the Warley photos makes it clear that the Bachmann model can represent any of the first eight cranes, namely:

 

- GWR 16

- GWR 17

- GWR 18

- GWR 19

- S1560S

- S1561S

- 941601

- 951516

 

Incidentally of these, all except GWR 16 (cut up at Swindon in 1986) and S1560S (cut up ex-Tyseley in April 2010) still exist.

 

There were significant differences between the jib runners for these cranes, and right from the start the SR runners were different to the GWR runners (these differences are visible in the Warely photos). As time went by various evolutionary changes took place to all the cranes which resulted in them becoming increasingly unique. For example, the chimney lift gear fitted to the SR cranes (but never fitted to the GW cranes) was removed, chimneys became short not long, the toolboxes fitted to the jib runners were altered, one of the LNE cranes was fitted with and exhaust draughting arrangement to the boiler, turbogenerators were moved, and a whole raft of other details changed.

 

 

The allocations of these cranes is quite complex and poorly documented, however in essence the GWR cranes stayed on the Western and crane on the Western ever received the red livery. One ex-GW crane (at Laira, as mentioned above) received yellow livery, the only R&R 45-tonner to do so. Only one escaped from the Western, No 17, which was transferred to the Midland region from Stafford road in 1963 and received red livery (the only ex-GW crane to do so).  It spent its Midland days at Oxley, Tyseley, Saltley, Willesden, Longsight, and finally Crewe. It is now at the GCR.

 

The two SR cranes remained on the Southern, and carried variousl gey, black, and red liveries. The survivor is now at the Swanage Railway.

 

Of the two LNER cranes one (951516) was transferred (along with Gorton shed) to the LMR in 1960, the other remained with the NE Region to the end. These carried grey, black, lined black, and red liveries. 951516 is preserved but not operational on the Bluebell, 941601 is similarly preserved byut not currently operational on the NYMR.

 

The jib runners for all of these were built by RY Pickering of Wishaw, but they too differed between orders and railways.

 

 

In conclusion it seems to me that this is a great looking model of a protype which has the potential to accomodate just about every type and region of modeller.


Edited by craneman, 30 November 2017 - 11:25 .

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#57 The Fatadder

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 13:27

In a word - no. Laira didn't get a breakdown crane unitl 1963 when it received ex-GWR 18, which stayed until 1965.  In 1972 this was replaced by ex-GWR 19 which stayed until 1987, in latter years carrying yellow livery (the only R&R 45-tonner to do so).  The Bachmann model is structurally accurate for both of these. No 18 is currently extant unrestored at Carnforth, and No 19 is preserved at the Flour Mill.
 
Newton Abbot had variously at around this time GWR 8, a Cowans Sheldon 15 ton crane (like the D&S Models kit) and/or GWR 9, a Cowans Sheldon 35 ton crane (ex-Caerphilly). Fromt he mid-'50s to the mid-'60s it had ex-GWR No 3, a 36-ton Ransomes & Rapier crane. None of these resemble the Bachmann model.

That being said, from 1940 onwards it is entirely plausible that a GW 45-ton crane would have been deployed anywhere needed, and in 1947 the nearest (to NA or Plymouth) was No 19 at Bristol to 1948 then at Swindon CWA, or No 18 at Canton. It is highly likely that one or other or both of these would have been seen at Laira if needed on the far West country. Certainly no-body could tell you it didn't happen.
 

 

Fascinating stuff thanks,

Once the Bachmann model arrives (and more importantly there is a price for it) I will decide if I go for the Bachmann model as no18 or look for the D&S kit to do the Newton 15tonner



#58 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 14:03

 


 


Close. It was Wilfrid S Stokes, a Director of Ransomes & Rapier Ltd, who invented both. Stokes had been New Works Engineer for the GWR before moving to Ransomes & Rapier in 1896. He was, incidentally, knighted for his invention of the Stokes mortar in 1914, this becoming the standard British gun of the First World War.

 


 



Not quite.

There were 16 cranes built essentially to this design.

 

The first order, for six cranes, was placed in 1939 on the authority of and paid for by the Goverrnment as a result of the Railway Technical Committee's recommendations for ensuring that the railways could survive the effects of air raids. The RTC recommended that 24 cranes should be ordered from two suppliers, in the event 12 cranes were authorised, six each from Ransomes & Rapier and Cowans Sheldon. All were to be 45-ton capacity , to conform to the British Composite Loacding Gauge, and to have a 15-ton axle loading to allow almost total route availability. The only cranes of relevance to this discussion are the R&R six.

 

These were delivered in 1939/40, and four were supplied to the GWR (allegedly against the GWR's will since it felt it already had adequate craneage) and two to the SR.   

 

In 1942 the Ministry of Supply ordered two further cranes from R&R to essentially the same design which were delivered to the LNER as direct replacements for two Cowans Sheldon cranes which had been requisitioned, converted to oil-firing, and shipped to the Middle East. The two LNER cranes differed from the earlier six in monor ways, the most conspicuous beign that the steam chests had moved outside the frame plates of the crab and the vales were operated by rocking levers (the first six has the steam chests inside the crab).

 

Some time later the MoS ordered seven further cranes for the military, and finally in 1945 the SR ordered one further crane. These had outside steam chests as per the LNER pair, but also had hydraulic loading systems on the relieving bogies instead of the earlier manual system. The relieving bogies are significantly different as a result. The final SR crane also has Bulleid-Firth-Brown cast wheelsets on the crane and relieving bogies (but not the jib runner).

 

The tooling seen in the Warley photos makes it clear that the Bachmann model can represent any of the first eight cranes, namely:

 

- GWR 16

- GWR 17

- GWR 18

- GWR 19

- S1560S

- S1561S

- 941601

- 951516

 

Incidentally of these, all except GWR 16 (cut up at Swindon in 1986) and S1560S (cut up ex-Tyseley in April 2010) still exist.

 

There were significant differences between the jib runners for these cranes, and right from the start the SR runners were different to the GWR runners (these differences are visible in the Warely photos). As time went by various evolutionary changes took place to all the cranes which resulted in them becoming increasingly unique. For example, the chimney lift gear fitted to the SR cranes (but never fitted to the GW cranes) was removed, chimneys became short not long, the toolboxes fitted to the jib runners were altered, one of the LNE cranes was fitted with and exhaust draughting arrangement to the boiler, turbogenerators were moved, and a whole raft of other details changed.

 

 

The allocations of these cranes is quite complex and poorly documented, however in essence the GWR cranes stayed on the Western and crane on the Western ever received the red livery. One ex-GW crane (at Laira, as mentioned above) received yellow livery, the only R&R 45-tonner to do so. Only one escaped from the Western, No 17, which was transferred to the Midland region from Stafford road in 1963 and received red livery (the only ex-GW crane to do so).  It spent its Midland days at Oxley, Tyseley, Saltley, Willesden, Longsight, and finally Crewe. It is now at the GCR.

 

The two SR cranes remained on the Southern, and carried variousl gey, black, and red liveries. The survivor is now at the Swanage Railway.

 

Of the two LNER cranes one (951516) was transferred (along with Gorton shed) to the LMR in 1960, the other remained with the NE Region to the end. These carried grey, black, lined black, and red liveries. 951516 is preserved but not operational on the Bluebell, 941601 is similarly preserved byut not currently operational on the NYMR.

 

The jib runners for all of these were built by RY Pickering of Wishaw, but they too differed between orders and railways.

 

 

In conclusion it seems to me that this is a great looking model of a protype which has the potential to accomodate just about every type and region of modeller.

Sir Frederick Wilfrid Scott Stokes

 

Same bloke so very close. The Stokes Brandt mortar has been one of the most successful weapons of the 20th century. 

 

Thank you for the information on the other Ranson & Rapier 45 ton cranes. Sorry I was going on what I have seen and the information In Peter Tatlow's book. My fault I did the post quite quickly instead of rereading a whole book, but then I was only trying to help.

 

One little thing, Kings Cross and Tinsley have never been in the NE Region.



#59 craneman

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 16:02

Sir Frederick Wilfrid Scott Stokes
 
Same bloke so very close. The Stokes Brandt mortar has been one of the most successful weapons of the 20th century. 
 
Thank you for the information on the other Ranson & Rapier 45 ton cranes. Sorry I was going on what I have seen and the information In Peter Tatlow's book. My fault I did the post quite quickly instead of rereading a whole book, but then I was only trying to help.
 
One little thing, Kings Cross and Tinsley have never been in the NE Region.

You are of course absolutely right, please accept my apologies for my earlier (and unintentionally slightly patronising) comment - the fault is mine, I had entirely forgotten that he was indeed Frederick Wilfrid Scott Stokes. For reasons I do not presently know, he is usually cited simply as "Wilfrid Scott Stokes" or "Wilfrid S. Stokes", occasionally "(Frederick) Wilfrid Scott Stokes". Quite why the Frederick is omitted or bracketed I do not know, perhaps he didn't like the name. Whatever the reason, you are absolutely right.
 
Rereading my long and tedious post above I notice the presence of many careless spelling mistakes too, for which I apologise. My only excuse is that I was (pretending to be) working at the time and typing rather fast.
 

One little thing, Kings Cross and Tinsley have never been in the NE Region.


Again, you are of quite right, but may I point out that there has never been a firm called "Ranson & Rapier"!

Edited by craneman, 30 November 2017 - 16:04 .

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#60 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 16:47

You are of course absolutely right, please accept my apologies for my earlier (and unintentionally slightly patronising) comment - the fault is mine, I had entirely forgotten that he was indeed Frederick Wilfrid Scott Stokes. For reasons I do not presently know, he is usually cited simply as "Wilfrid Scott Stokes" or "Wilfrid S. Stokes", occasionally "(Frederick) Wilfrid Scott Stokes". Quite why the Frederick is omitted or bracketed I do not know, perhaps he didn't like the name. Whatever the reason, you are absolutely right.
 
Rereading my long and tedious post above I notice the presence of many careless spelling mistakes too, for which I apologise. My only excuse is that I was (pretending to be) working at the time and typing rather fast.
 

Again, you are of quite right, but may I point out that there has never been a firm called "Ranson & Rapier"!

Fair point.

 

As a student at Ipswich college I visited the works in the early 70s, I think lawn mowers were by then their staple diet.


Edited by Clive Mortimore, 30 November 2017 - 16:48 .


#61 craneman

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 17:09

Yes, it is sad how the mighty fall, especially when they were great British engineering institutions.

 

R&R was of course ultimately a victim of the abhorrent Robert Maxwell and his dubious dealings.



#62 paul 27

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 17:21

LMR allocations   ex GWR 17   ex LNER 95156  when were these painted red.


Edited by paul 27, 30 November 2017 - 17:22 .


#63 darren01

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 19:18


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#64 delticfan

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 23:59

Fascinating stuff thanks,
Once the Bachmann model arrives (and more importantly there is a price for it) I will decide if I go for the Bachmann model as no18 or look for the D&S kit to do the Newton 15tonner


I’ld get going on the kit if I were you it’ll be finished and in use a good five years before they get round to doing the engineering prototype!

#65 The Stationmaster

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:33

 

The best two breakdown gangs on the Western Region in my experience of working with most of the gangs over the years (the worst in the 1970s were Bath Road - always advisable to stand a long way out of the way when they were at it as their packing seemed to make excellent projectiles).


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#66 Enterprisingwestern

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:31

 
Yes, chalk and cheese spring to mind.
 
The Hornby model is a radically compromised representation of a 75-ton Cowans Sheldon design introduced in 1960 and in service (in steam powered form as loosely modelled) until 1976 or so.
The Bachmann model is a highly accurate representation of a 45-ton Ransomes & Rapier design introduced in 1940 and in service in steam powered form (steam only - none was ever converted) until 1989.
 
One is a model, the other a toy!

 


Close. It was Wilfrid S Stokes, a Director of Ransomes & Rapier Ltd, who invented both. Stokes had been New Works Engineer for the GWR before moving to Ransomes & Rapier in 1896. He was, incidentally, knighted for his invention of the Stokes mortar in 1914, this becoming the standard British gun of the First World War.

 


In a word - no. Laira didn't get a breakdown crane unitl 1963 when it received ex-GWR 18, which stayed until 1965.  In 1972 this was replaced by ex-GWR 19 which stayed until 1987, in latter years carrying yellow livery (the only R&R 45-tonner to do so).  The Bachmann model is structurally accurate for both of these. No 18 is currently extant unrestored at Carnforth, and No 19 is preserved at the Flour Mill.
 
Newton Abbot had variously at around this time GWR 8, a Cowans Sheldon 15 ton crane (like the D&S Models kit) and/or GWR 9, a Cowans Sheldon 35 ton crane (ex-Caerphilly). Fromt he mid-'50s to the mid-'60s it had ex-GWR No 3, a 36-ton Ransomes & Rapier crane. None of these resemble the Bachmann model.
In 1965 the ex-SR crane DS1580 moved to Newton Abbot upon closure of Exmouth Junction, staying at Newton Abbot until 1972 when it went to Laira. This crane, though very similar to the Bachmann model, differs in that it, in common with the MoS 45-tonners, had the hydraulic loading mechanism on the relieving bogies (not the earlier manual system). 1580 also uniquely had BFB wheels. DS1580 was the only 45-ton R&R crane to operate on the mainline which had hydraulic RBs and it seems unlikely that Bachmann will retool the relieving bogie to produce a model of a single unique crane.  DS1580  is preserved and operating on the Mid-Hants railway.
 
That being said, from 1940 onwards it is entirely plausible that a GW 45-ton crane would have been deployed anywhere needed, and in 1947 the nearest (to NA or Plymouth) was No 19 at Bristol to 1948 then at Swindon CWA, or No 18 at Canton. It is highly likely that one or other or both of these would have been seen at Laira if needed on the far West country. Certainly no-body could tell you it didn't happen.
 
It is worth remembering that one of the reasons that this design was produced (and a requirement of the pre-war Railway Technical Committee for Air Raid Precautions, which drove the design) was that it conformed to the British Composite Loading Gauge and had both dimensions and axle loadings which allowed the cranes to travel anywhere on the UK mainline railways, including LPTB lines (and the Hastings line). They were (and are) physically smaller and lighted on the axles than the massive GWR 36-tonners which spawned them, and the 36-tonners were allowed over all mainline GWR routes in the West Country, including over the Tamar Bridge.
 


Problem or opportunity?
 
Let's think about liveries for a moment.  The model, taken with the tooling options visible in the Warley photos, allows an accurate model to be produced of any of eight cranes, namely the first order of six for "British Railways", of which four went to the GWR and two to the Southern, plus the two from the second order for the Ministry of Supply, both of which went to the LNER to replace two conscripted cranes, (The model from what has been seen so far does not allow any of the seven subsequent MoS/WD cranes or the Southern's DS1580 to be modelled, since these all had significantly different relieving bogies).
 
These 8 cranes between them, over their working lives and allocations, would have been seen in GWR grey, SR grey, LNER grey, GWR black, SR black, LNER black, BR(S) red, BR(E) red, BR(M) red, and BR(W) yellow. Assuming that the tooling options allow for the difference evolutionary changes that took place, that means that there is a huge variety of historically accurate models which Bachmann could, if they chose, produce. The livery details are also complex, due largely to the fact that cranes were generally painted locally and seldom were two alike. Furthermore there are differences such as the fact that the Western refused to follow the 1953 "Ad-Hoc Committee" directive to repaint cranes in morale-boosting red, and steadfastly left theirs black, not only that, but their pre-grouping individuality meant that no black BR(W) crane ever received a BR totem of any kind. The SR and LNER cranes carried differend totem at various times, adding further variations.
 
There are probably 30 or more different, historically accurate, combinations which could be produced, which is surely useful if you want a good ROI on your tooling.

 


Unlikely, given the relieving bogie issue mentioned above. It will probably be S1560 or S1561.

 



Not quite.

There were 16 cranes built essentially to this design.

 

The first order, for six cranes, was placed in 1939 on the authority of and paid for by the Goverrnment as a result of the Railway Technical Committee's recommendations for ensuring that the railways could survive the effects of air raids. The RTC recommended that 24 cranes should be ordered from two suppliers, in the event 12 cranes were authorised, six each from Ransomes & Rapier and Cowans Sheldon. All were to be 45-ton capacity , to conform to the British Composite Loacding Gauge, and to have a 15-ton axle loading to allow almost total route availability. The only cranes of relevance to this discussion are the R&R six.

 

These were delivered in 1939/40, and four were supplied to the GWR (allegedly against the GWR's will since it felt it already had adequate craneage) and two to the SR.   

 

In 1942 the Ministry of Supply ordered two further cranes from R&R to essentially the same design which were delivered to the LNER as direct replacements for two Cowans Sheldon cranes which had been requisitioned, converted to oil-firing, and shipped to the Middle East. The two LNER cranes differed from the earlier six in monor ways, the most conspicuous beign that the steam chests had moved outside the frame plates of the crab and the vales were operated by rocking levers (the first six has the steam chests inside the crab).

 

Some time later the MoS ordered seven further cranes for the military, and finally in 1945 the SR ordered one further crane. These had outside steam chests as per the LNER pair, but also had hydraulic loading systems on the relieving bogies instead of the earlier manual system. The relieving bogies are significantly different as a result. The final SR crane also has Bulleid-Firth-Brown cast wheelsets on the crane and relieving bogies (but not the jib runner).

 

The tooling seen in the Warley photos makes it clear that the Bachmann model can represent any of the first eight cranes, namely:

 

- GWR 16

- GWR 17

- GWR 18

- GWR 19

- S1560S

- S1561S

- 941601

- 951516

 

Incidentally of these, all except GWR 16 (cut up at Swindon in 1986) and S1560S (cut up ex-Tyseley in April 2010) still exist.

 

There were significant differences between the jib runners for these cranes, and right from the start the SR runners were different to the GWR runners (these differences are visible in the Warely photos). As time went by various evolutionary changes took place to all the cranes which resulted in them becoming increasingly unique. For example, the chimney lift gear fitted to the SR cranes (but never fitted to the GW cranes) was removed, chimneys became short not long, the toolboxes fitted to the jib runners were altered, one of the LNE cranes was fitted with and exhaust draughting arrangement to the boiler, turbogenerators were moved, and a whole raft of other details changed.

 

 

The allocations of these cranes is quite complex and poorly documented, however in essence the GWR cranes stayed on the Western and crane on the Western ever received the red livery. One ex-GW crane (at Laira, as mentioned above) received yellow livery, the only R&R 45-tonner to do so. Only one escaped from the Western, No 17, which was transferred to the Midland region from Stafford road in 1963 and received red livery (the only ex-GW crane to do so).  It spent its Midland days at Oxley, Tyseley, Saltley, Willesden, Longsight, and finally Crewe. It is now at the GCR.

 

The two SR cranes remained on the Southern, and carried variousl gey, black, and red liveries. The survivor is now at the Swanage Railway.

 

Of the two LNER cranes one (951516) was transferred (along with Gorton shed) to the LMR in 1960, the other remained with the NE Region to the end. These carried grey, black, lined black, and red liveries. 951516 is preserved but not operational on the Bluebell, 941601 is similarly preserved byut not currently operational on the NYMR.

 

The jib runners for all of these were built by RY Pickering of Wishaw, but they too differed between orders and railways.

 

 

In conclusion it seems to me that this is a great looking model of a protype which has the potential to accomodate just about every type and region of modeller.

 

One hopes Bachmann are aware of this, or at least have now read the thread?

 

Mike.


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#67 craneman

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 14:16

Bachmann is well aware.


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#68 farren

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 17:26

Is it just me or do the cranes details differ

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#69 Coach bogie

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 17:39

 

 

The allocations of these cranes is quite complex and poorly documented, however in essence the GWR cranes stayed on the Western and crane on the Western ever received the red livery. One ex-GW crane (at Laira, as mentioned above) received yellow livery, the only R&R 45-tonner to do so. Only one escaped from the Western, No 17, which was transferred to the Midland region from Stafford road in 1963 and received red livery (the only ex-GW crane to do so).  It spent its Midland days at Oxley, Tyseley, Saltley, Willesden, Longsight, and finally Crewe. It is now at the GCR.

 

Longsight had a Cravens crane in the late 1970's. I assumed they were swopped about a fair bit.

 

LongsightCRANE.jpg

 

Mike Wiltshire


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#70 PenrithBeacon

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 18:50

Were any of these in the northwest during steam days?

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#71 craneman

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 19:34

Is it just me or do the cranes details differ


Bachmann was displaying two different versions, one GWR, one LNER, at the show, so yes, the details differ.

Edited by craneman, 01 December 2017 - 19:35 .

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#72 Jim104

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:19

Does anyone know what crane was at Nine Elms SR, any photos anywhere ?

#73 Dunsignalling

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 17:09

Is it just me or do the cranes details differ

From my sketchy memory of the original announcements, I think they should.

 

John


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#74 MartinTrucks

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 18:48

Does anyone know what crane was at Nine Elms SR, any photos anywhere ?

 

Jim,

The 1960 BR Sectional Appendix shows DS1560 at Nine Elms. This was a Ransomes and Rapier 45-Tonner. Its twin, DS1561 was stationed at Guildford at that time. When I worked for BR in the 1970s/'80s, one of these was based at Hither Green and the other at Stewarts Lane. When Hither Green Loco closed, one of the two was transferred to Brighton to replace their 36-tonner. After withdrawal, the two 45-tonners ended up at Swindon where I think one was cut up. There should be more info on the net. Sorry, I don't have any pics.

 

Edit - I have just looked at the BDCA website. The Nine Elms crane was the one that was scrapped. This page has a handful of pics when it was based at Stew Lane:

http://www.bdca.org....ADRR95209-Album


Edited by MartinTrucks, 03 December 2017 - 18:57 .


#75 Paul.Uni

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 22:56

Images and details of the models http://bachmann.co.u...ails.php?id=493


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