q1s in the west Pleye Wood

[hayfield]

Captain

 

Thank you for your reply, but I feel we will never agree. Certainly with etched chairs, I have built a Massokits turnout, copperclad timbers with two/3 or 4 piece chairs is a nightmare in building them, and when put against a moulded or cast chair look very 2D

 

Rail will expand whether it is in chairs or soldered to copperclad sleepers/timbers. The EM and P4 boys who use riveted track will confirm soldered joints fail, plastic chaired track allows the rail to slide through the chairs whilst expanding and contracting, which ever method is used (even RTR track) must take expansion into consideration, issues may occur with plastic on ply sleepers, but on a turnout I am sorry but expansion is minimal.

 

Now put two pieces of track the same length side by side one using plastic chairs and sleepers/timbers the other being soldered if the rails are the same then the expansion will be the same, or perhaps the laws of physics is altered when soldered and I therefore will stand corrected

 

Still each to their own and whatever floats your boat is fine

[Clive Mortimore]

All in good time... I hope 

 

I've been rather struck with this as an 'idea' for the end bit, it's Chingford I believe, found on Faceache.

 

Chingford.jpg

 

Loco, 'coaling up' from the wagon, with a siding beside (coal merch or end loading dock?).

 

Will have to fire up the old Templot (and update it).  If I CBA, I'll have a go with copperclad, vero pins, plastic and brass chairs (with most ideas stolen from yourself good sir*).

 

*No liability implied

All changed now. Where the N7 is, is now a bus station. The station ends at the end of the platforms and they have been linked so that passengers have easier access to platform 3 (or the way out if they are going home).

 

Did yew note that them there points is fatbottom? They must have been laid ready for when Chingford was electrocuted. They are still there by the looks of things.

 

There use to be a cafe near the station, quite a nice fry up. Yummy yummy.

[St Enodoc]

So much detail in that photo.

The signal cabin with the curved toof, the little shed with the door opening right onto the track, the oil drums and broken seat on the platform, the underplatform ironwork and possibly ex-point-rodding provision, the advertising signs where no one would ever walk, the fire buckets hung out of reach.

 

Really wonderful stuff.

And flat-bottomed rail in the crossover - very interesting.

 

Edit - posted before reading Clive's above - sorry.

Edited February 19, 2018 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

I also found this on Faceache:

 

Woman: Does Viagra work?

Pharmacist: Yes

Woman: Can you get it over the counter?

Pharmacist: Yes if I take two

News flash: a lorryload of Viagra has been stolen. Police are looking for a gang of hardened criminals.

 

I thank you.

[St Enodoc]

Martin Wynn told you about vero pins, thanks for giving me the credit though. Sorry but with the exception of a few examples I just cannot understand why folk still persist with copperclad except in very few cases.

 

The first now being cost, its so expensive !!

 

Then you have to cut slots in them

 

Followed by filling in the gaps

 

If you want to use chairs (lets face it who dosent !!) the rail needs lifting up from the timbers

 

Then you have to fit all those half chairs (which fall off during track cleaning activities)

 

I do like the Chingford plan though, looks very interesting     

Two more reasons why I like copperclad, to add to CK's list:

 

- speed of construction.

 

- ease of adjustment.

[Captain Kernow]

Captain

 

Thank you for your reply, but I feel we will never agree. Certainly with etched chairs, I have built a Massokits turnout, copperclad timbers with two/3 or 4 piece chairs is a nightmare in building them, and when put against a moulded or cast chair look very 2D

 

Rail will expand whether it is in chairs or soldered to copperclad sleepers/timbers. The EM and P4 boys who use riveted track will confirm soldered joints fail, plastic chaired track allows the rail to slide through the chairs whilst expanding and contracting, which ever method is used (even RTR track) must take expansion into consideration, issues may occur with plastic on ply sleepers, but on a turnout I am sorry but expansion is minimal.

 

Now put two pieces of track the same length side by side one using plastic chairs and sleepers/timbers the other being soldered if the rails are the same then the expansion will be the same, or perhaps the laws of physics is altered when soldered and I therefore will stand corrected

 

Still each to their own and whatever floats your boat is fine

That's fair enough.

 

I can only speak from my own experience and that of fellow modeller friends. I can't recall a soldered rail-to-copperclad sleeper joint ever failing and certainly never going out of gauge. I accept the bit about expansion lengthways and always try to allow for that. The problems I had with plastic point kits was in them going out of gauge due to rail expansion (perhaps I hadn't allowed sufficient expansion gap), but I thought 'never again').

 

That utterance of 'never again' was a long time ago now and related to my first layout 'Engine Wood', which was OO, and since then, I have built a further OO layout ('Bleakhouse Road') featuring part-plastic point kits *C&L) and part scratchbuilt copper clad points. That was followed by 'Callow Lane' ((P4), featuring a mix again (although the plastic point kits these time are the original P4 Track Co product).

 

Projects for the immediate future ('Bethesda Sidings' - OO and hopefully 'Travellers Rest' - P4) will see 100% copper clad construction (all points already built), but when I get around to doing my very small 7mm project in about 500 years time, that will feature C&L plastic point kits again, so who am I to condemn plastic point kits?   

 

An essential component of any copperclad point for me now is the use of Exactoscale plastic chairs, cut in half and glued with epoxy to the sleepers and rail. To raise the rail to the right height above the top of the sleeper, I have inserted small slivers of brass or N/S, cut from strip or whatever I have to hand, but my friend and I are now looking to get some etched for future projects.

[Ramblin Rich]

I've been rather struck with this as an 'idea' for the end bit, it's Chingford I believe, found on Faceache.

 

Chingford.jpg

 

Loco, 'coaling up' from the wagon, with a siding beside (coal merch or end loading dock?).

 

 

Nice.

Reminds me very much of Nigel Bowyer's 'Elm Park's layout.

http://www.cheltmodrail.org.uk/layout.php?LKey=237

[hayfield]

That's fair enough.

 

I can only speak from my own experience and that of fellow modeller friends. I can't recall a soldered rail-to-copperclad sleeper joint ever failing and certainly never going out of gauge. I accept the bit about expansion lengthways and always try to allow for that. The problems I had with plastic point kits was in them going out of gauge due to rail expansion (perhaps I hadn't allowed sufficient expansion gap), but I thought 'never again').

 

That utterance of 'never again' was a long time ago now and related to my first layout 'Engine Wood', which was OO, and since then, I have built a further OO layout ('Bleakhouse Road') featuring part-plastic point kits *C&L) and part scratchbuilt copper clad points. That was followed by 'Callow Lane' ((P4), featuring a mix again (although the plastic point kits these time are the original P4 Track Co product).

 

Projects for the immediate future ('Bethesda Sidings' - OO and hopefully 'Travellers Rest' - P4) will see 100% copper clad construction (all points already built), but when I get around to doing my very small 7mm project in about 500 years time, that will feature C&L plastic point kits again, so who am I to condemn plastic point kits? 

 

An essential component of any copperclad point for me now is the use of Exactoscale plastic chairs, cut in half and glued with epoxy to the sleepers and rail. To raise the rail to the right height above the top of the sleeper, I have inserted small slivers of brass or N/S, cut from strip or whatever I have to hand, but my friend and I are now looking to get some etched for future projects.

 

 

The issues 40+ years ago were that when the system was designed certain aspects were not predicted, and there was a complete lack of easy to follow instructions. The main issue was not expansion but contraction. The system was designed to be compatible with the ply and rivet method of track building, which resulted in a basic design flaw, which to some degree has been allowed to continue, coupled with some very basic building instructions

 

The first flaw was that a thin plastic timber and sleeper profile was used, resulting in these sleepers and timbers curling as the solvent dried. The solution was very simple, use a thicker sleeper or timber, problem solved

 

C&L sell the thicker sleepers and timbers. Exactoscale (created by the same person as C&L) has never sold a thinner Sleeper or timber

 

The second problem is that the rail is held at the correct angle within the chair, therefore the rail must rotate within the gauge. If the rail is held too tight it is forced upwards, when the gauge is taken off the rail reverts to the appropriate angle thus reducing the gauge

 

Using the wrong gauges has been a well known problem for many years, dosen't really affect 00 too much but is an issue with EM & P4 gauges

 

The fact is that using the Exactoscale range of (plastic)products including the special  chairs ( as well as the C&L chairs and thicker bases) produces a very robust and reliable system, including not having to use pre-made common crossing assemblies.

 

I think we must be careful when banding the word quicker in the build sense, I know you never meant it to be taken this way buy I have seen some awfully built turnouts which have been rushed. Also you must compare like for like, OK a standard plain copperclad turnout will be quicker, but then add in the time it takes to fill in the slots. Now if you then wish to apply chairs, this will take much longer especially if you are soldering large number of small etchings to the turnout. For me to build a copperclad turnout to a similar standard to a plastic chaired one (without fitting any chairs) it takes much the same time, but you will not find a single gap in any timber.

 

My simple question is what will look better, a well made copperclad turnout, or a well built chaired turnout using all the special chairs ?  Granted from a distance you may never see any difference, but close up is another story

 

Several years ago I was of the opinion that plastic chaired turnouts needed a belt and braces approach, I have found this is unnecessary unless you are using ply sleepers and timbers

 

But there is nothing wrong with using which ever method you choose, I actually envy the skill that those who are able to build rivet and ply turnouts demonstrate, the models in my opinion are too good to both paint and hide the craftsmanship with half chairs. As I said before each to their own, its a hobby to enjoy

[Captain Kernow]

I think we must be careful when banding the word quicker in the build sense, I know you never meant it to be taken this way buy I have seen some awfully built turnouts which have been rushed. Also you must compare like for like, OK a standard plain copperclad turnout will be quicker, but then add in the time it takes to fill in the slots. Now if you then wish to apply chairs, this will take much longer especially if you are soldering large number of small etchings to the turnout. For me to build a copperclad turnout to a similar standard to a plastic chaired one (without fitting any chairs) it takes much the same time, but you will not find a single gap in any timber.

 

Ah, I certainly didn't mean to imply that copper-clad was quicker (and having checked back, I don't think I even wrote that, but not to worry). Nothing worth having can be rushed, in my view and I completely accept that gluing plastic half chairs on afterwards, plus the other preparation work, filling in of gaps etc. is extremely time consuming, but like anything else that we wish to do as well as we can, that time is relatively immaterial to me.

[Captain Kernow]

The fact is that using the Exactoscale range of (plastic)products including the special  chairs ( as well as the C&L chairs and thicker bases) produces a very robust and reliable system, including not having to use pre-made common crossing assemblies.

 

I'm glad that you also feel the same way, as it's been well over three years since I was able to run anything on 'Callow Lane', yet the time is now approaching when I hope to get the layout put back up for eventual completion.

[Captain Kernow]

My simple question is what will look better, a well made copperclad turnout, or a well built chaired turnout using all the special chairs ?  Granted from a distance you may never see any difference, but close up is another story

 

You are undoubtedly right regarding the close-up aspect and I believe that only P4 Track Co/Exactoscale/C&L made/make the special chairs in all their variety.

 

If you are approaching the point completely from scratch, you would either have to source these separately or scratchbuild your own.

 

It then (for me, certainly) gets to the point where I have to think about 'normal viewing distances' and how much I am going to pander to the unforgiving macro lens of modern digital photographic devices (let's face it, how many people go around exhibitions wielding a magnifying glass and demanding to inspect your switches and crossings with it?). It will also depend on whether you are a PW 'afficionado', whether track is your 'thing' or not.

[Tim Dubya]

I'm all for the copperclad route as it will provide the strength I need for a plank that has to be put up and packed away at regular intervals as I have nowhere for a permanent home for it.

 

I've also got a shed load of copperclad strip in stock too, plus brass chairs and vero pins.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Tim Dubya

[Stubby47]

I'm all for the copperclad route as it will provide the strength I need for a plank that has to be put up and packed away at regular intervals as I have nowhere for a permanent home for it.

 

I've also got a shed load of copperclad strip in stock too, plus brass chairs and vero pins.

 

So you'll be using Pecoboo Bullybeef then ?

[bgman]

Whilst I don't want to de-rail Mr.Dubyas thread I wish to comment about on the copper clad vs. plastic chair construction if I may ?

 

With a foot in both camps I wish to " crack on" with a layout and have considered the supply of plastic chairs currently to be a hinderance ( sadly ) for my project due to the time period for ordering and supply, please don't take this as a criticism though.

 

I have tried various methods over the past couple of months, Peco Individulay chairs on obechi sleepers,

Individulay sleepers and chairs and finally settled on copper clad for O gauge point work.

 

The chairs have been cut and made cosmetic with some mods and I for one am happy with the final product. Yes, I'd have preferred to use the likes of C & L and fully accept their realism.

 

I for one won't be getting a magnifying glass out and am happy with what I've produced.

 

 

 

Very much a matter of taste for each modeller.

 

Grahame

[bgman]

Oh ! And one more thing,

 

Soldering keeps my hands warm in the winter as opposed to being high on solvents to make track then ending up with a banana shaped point !

 

Yeah man )

[hayfield]

I'm all for the copperclad route as it will provide the strength I need for a plank that has to be put up and packed away at regular intervals as I have nowhere for a permanent home for it.

 

I've also got a shed load of copperclad strip in stock too, plus brass chairs and vero pins.

 

Tim

 

Plastic chairs on plastic sleepers would also be fine, as once stuck together you need to cut them apart. The plastic welds itself together. If you are happier with Copperclad then fine and of course have some to hand then no issues

[Clive Mortimore]

I can build my own points etc. not very well but they work.  I came to the conclusion that I only have so many more years of modelling left in me and as I don't enjoy making my own why bother. The purist out there can scoff all they like but opening a Peco packet takes me less than a minute. Laying the point, wiring it , setting up the point motor/push rods etc take about the same time so using RTR is not too big an advantage here. It is an advantage compared my own points, it works and is reliable.

 

Hats off to those who can build their own.

[Tim Dubya]

I can build my own points etc. not very well but they work.  I came to the conclusion that I only have so many more years of modelling left in me and as I don't enjoy making my own why bother. The purist out there can scoff all they like but opening a Peco packet takes me less than a minute. Laying the point, wiring it , setting up the point motor/push rods etc take about the same time so using RTR is not too big an advantage here. It is an advantage compared my own points, it works and is reliable.

 

Hats off to those who can build their own.

 

If Peeeeeco did a medium radius point, I'd be havin' them I can assure you!

[Tim Dubya]

[Captain Kernow]

I can build my own points etc. not very well but they work.  I came to the conclusion that I only have so many more years of modelling left in me and as I don't enjoy making my own why bother. The purist out there can scoff all they like but opening a Peco packet takes me less than a minute. Laying the point, wiring it , setting up the point motor/push rods etc take about the same time so using RTR is not too big an advantage here. It is an advantage compared my own points, it works and is reliable.

 

Hats off to those who can build their own.

Well said, Clive.

 

It's like most other things in life, we all have subjects, topics or whatever, where we might have a bit of a 'thing' about them. I like my track to look good, within reason, and am prepared to spend a bit of time on it. I also have a 'thing' about the 'face' of 14XXs (going back to the awful old K's smokebox door castings).

 

I did try, when starting in P4, to wear the hair shirt as much as I could, and so ensured that all my early wagons were compensated or sprung, but as time goes by, I'm less bothered about that now, as long as they stay on the track.

 

Sprung diesel bogies is another matter that doesn't do anything for me, although Respect to those, for whom it is important. There are folks who say that they can tell the difference between a sprung P4 diesel gliding over pointwork in a realistic fashion, but I personally can't tell the difference. My P4 diesels are all simple wheel swaps in the existing RTR bogies. It's much more important to me that the loco runs slowly and smoothly.

 

'Time remaining' is also increasingly relevant to some of us. As such, I'm happy to buy an RTR loco or wagon, if it's a good model, rather than spend time building a kit, even though the building of that kit would give pleasure, as there are other modelling tasks that I can do with that time that will give me the same amount of pleasure, or even more.

[Captain Kernow]

I've got to go and make the tea again now.

[Tim Dubya]

I've got to go and make the tea again now.

Does the tea making get you out of the washing up?

It doesn't in our house but it didn't stop me from attempting to negotiate terms.

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

Does the tea making get you out of the washing up?

 

Negative, Caller.

[St Enodoc]

'Time remaining' is also increasingly relevant to some of us. As such, I'm happy to buy an RTR loco or wagon, if it's a good model, rather than spend time building a kit, even though the building of that kit would give pleasure, as there are other modelling tasks that I can do with that time that will give me the same amount of pleasure, or even more.

My sentiments precisely.

[Captain Kernow]

I think I could get used to this posting of serious stuff about model railways.