HST retirements and secondary deployments.

[Butler Henderson]

I'm wondering how may reused HST sets will be running round with just one operative power car. Seems IMO a bit odd that the hyped cost savings of DMUs over loco hauled back in the 1980s is being set aside particularly once the costs of operation get realised.

[R.Langley]

As an aside (or  !)

 

Here are a couple of shots taken a few years ago.

 

Running through Totnes. Note the down bay and the crossover on the main. The first long gone and the second moved up past the river bridge when MAS work was done in the 80s

img114.jpg

 

Running into Liskeard. I think that the sidings are now long gone.

img102.jpg

Some lovely photos there John. However, I believe the second photo is actually Bodmin Parkway rather than Liskeard.

[Re6/6]

Some lovely photos there John. However, I believe the second photo is actually Bodmin Parkway rather than Liskeard.

Richard, you're correct....brain fade.....it was long time ago...!

[Dunsignalling]

Corrosion amongst other things the reasons for the problems fitting sliding door modules

As I understand it, the power door and modernised toilet conversion is achieved by fitting complete new end-modules comprising everything outside the main saloon.

 

They "just" cut the old sections off and weld the new ones on.

 

John

Edited May 14, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Sorry if this has already been discussed,

(Yes I'm too lazy to scroll back thro 10 pages).

 

As the HSTs are being shortened, what's happening

to all the spare coaches!

I should think that quite a few will be heading to charter operators to replace older stock in the fullness of time.

 

Tornado's operators have already announced they are acquiring at least one trains-worth of them, though whether they will be ex-HST or gleaned from what remains of the loco-hauled fleet, I don't know. 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

I'm wondering how may reused HST sets will be running round with just one operative power car. Seems IMO a bit odd that the hyped cost savings of DMUs over loco hauled back in the 1980s is being set aside particularly once the costs of operation get realised.

I suspect the main reasons are not financial, in part because (AFAIK) FGW actually own some of their HST fleet rather than leasing it all.

 

The other issue is a relative shortage of available modern DMUs, especially in the West Country, that will become more acute with the demise of the 4-wheeled stuff and the possible re-formation of the 153s back to 2-car units. 

 

My guess is that the Class 185s to be displaced by Trans-Pennine's new loco-hauled push-pull trains will not languish unwanted for long.

 

If the short HSTs are judged to have a fairly long-term future, I would expect to see driving trailers made from some of the removed cars in a couple of years, leading to 1+4 formations rather than 2+4, thereby releasing power cars to form more such sets, if required.

 

John

Edited May 14, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[sc2016]

Running into Liskeard. I think that the sidings are now long gone.

img102.jpg

The HST is running into Bodmin Parkway and the sidings are still there.

[westie7]

As I understand it, the power door and modernised toilet conversion is achieved by fitting complete new end-modules comprising everything outside the main saloon.

 

They "just" cut the old sections off and weld the new ones on.

 

John

 

 

There's that word SWMBO likes to use... Just 

 

Once the shells were prepped, there was a lack of right angles and correct shape, and plenty of crusty material.

 

Try crushing a Pringle tube, reshaping then putting the lid back on, Its close but not quite right

[black and decker boy]

I should think that quite a few will be heading to charter operators to replace older stock in the fullness of time.

 

Tornado's operators have already announced they are acquiring at least one trains-worth of them, though whether they will be ex-HST or gleaned from what remains of the loco-hauled fleet, I don't know.

 

John

That’s ex-Anglia loco hauled stock.

 

HST trailers have non compatible ETS and buckeyes with no buffers. Extra cost to convert to loco haulage. Anglia MK3s are relatively good after refurb so just need normal maintenance.

[sem34090]

Reducing a three coach to two coach?

 

Pah, here out West of Brighton we can go better than that!

 

Try and squeeze passengers from two packed three coach services onto one three coach service in the Morning peak...

 

Go on, try it. Southern & GWR are...

 

The single three coach service is a GWR operated one, so why not use a five-coach HST to relieve some of the overcrowding which will result?

[Dunsignalling]

There's that word SWMBO likes to use... Just 

 

Once the shells were prepped, there was a lack of right angles and correct shape, and plenty of crusty material.

 

Try crushing a Pringle tube, reshaping then putting the lid back on, Its close but not quite right

Much as I suspected............

 

I have long considered that the modern practice of applying new liveries using vinyl overlays probably encourages the spread of corrosion beneath it. 

 

John

[Glorious NSE]

I suspect the main reasons are not financial, in part because (AFAIK) FGW actually own some of their HST fleet rather than leasing it all.

 

The other issue is a relative shortage of available modern DMUs, especially in the West Country, that will become more acute with the demise of the 4-wheeled stuff and the possible re-formation of the 153s back to 2-car units. 

 

My guess is that the Class 185s to be displaced by Trans-Pennine's new loco-hauled push-pull trains will not languish unwanted for long.

 

If the short HSTs are judged to have a fairly long-term future, I would expect to see driving trailers made from some of the removed cars in a couple of years, leading to 1+4 formations rather than 2+4, thereby releasing power cars to form more such sets, if required.

 

 

 

I believe two power cars are required to keep existing Sprinter timings.

 

HSTs are quite poor at low-speed acceleration, and there's no 125mph running in Devon and Cornwall (even if they were allowed to and there was enough distance between stops) to earn that deficit back at the other end of the speed curve.

 

The UK will not be short of spare power cars to do many more sets - if you do the maths with regard to how many will remain in use with GWR, XC and Scotrail, assuming the MML ones are replaced then you still have more than half the existing fleet spare by my maths?

 

 

[AberdeenBill]

Hi all,

 

Any updates on Scotrail HSTs?   A recent video on Facebook showed a pair of Scottish liveried power cars heading through Newton Abbot on their way to Laira :-O     Sorry no pictures, but Dyce station now has 'HST stop' boards at the platform ends.

 

Thanks,

Bill

[Claude_Dreyfus]

A few HSTs on the East Coastway- Ashford to Brighton, why not? Anything would be better than the bloody daft actions of Southern recently; shortening the three-car 171s to two-car units, which have resulted in some units with two first-class sections and even less seating than before.

 

     Anyway...! I've not heard anything recently about the displacement of MK3s, although I believe there was some suggestion to use them for express parcels services? And the ScotRail services ought to provide relief for much overcrowding, from what I've seen.

 

- Alex

I didn't think Southern had 3 car 171s. They have the 2-car 171/7 and 4-car 171/8s.

 

As much as I would love to see HSTs running on the Coastway, I understand mark 3s are not suitable for the Arundel junction curves...that put paid to 442s operating to Littlehampton if I remember rightly.

[Vistisen]

I believe two power cars are required to keep existing Sprinter timings.

 

HSTs are quite poor at low-speed acceleration, and there's no 125mph running in Devon and Cornwall (even if they were allowed to and there was enough distance between stops) to earn that deficit back at the other end of the speed curve.

 

The UK will not be short of spare power cars to do many more sets - if you do the maths with regard to how many will remain in use with GWR, XC and Scotrail, assuming the MML ones are replaced then you still have more than half the existing fleet spare by my maths?

 

 

 

The other problem with short HST formations is the maximum allowed speed falls because there are not enough braked wheels on the coaches to slow the heavy power cars within braking distances. 

[david.hill64]

The other problem with short HST formations is the maximum allowed speed falls because there are not enough braked wheels on the coaches to slow the heavy power cars within braking distances.

 

The power cars are fully able to meet the braking distance at all speeds up to and including 125mph. How do I know? I specified and witnessed the tests.

[4630]

After several false starts over the past week, a complete rebranded and reworked ScotRail four coach HST set and power cars was released from Wabtec Doncaster on 17th August.

 

The set worked north as 5S04, 15.12 Doncaster Works Wabtec to Haymarket Depot.

 

Here are a few images taken at Doncaster as the set came off the Wabtec site and then departed for Haymarket.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately it was rather dull and overcast in Doncaster so the photos aren't the brightest.

 

 

 

 

 

[newbryford]

Don't think it has been mentioned on this thread. (Apologies if it has)

 

Locomotive Services at Crewe are purchasing HSTs for charter use.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/hsts-bought-for-charter-use?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Dunsignalling]

I believe two power cars are required to keep existing Sprinter timings.

 

HSTs are quite poor at low-speed acceleration, and there's no 125mph running in Devon and Cornwall (even if they were allowed to and there was enough distance between stops) to earn that deficit back at the other end of the speed curve.

 

The UK will not be short of spare power cars to do many more sets - if you do the maths with regard to how many will remain in use with GWR, XC and Scotrail, assuming the MML ones are replaced then you still have more than half the existing fleet spare by my maths?

 

 

I'd expect, in the fulness of time, to see some of the power cars re-geared to help overcome the poor low-range acceleration.

 

No point retaining speed capabilities that can never be used. 

 

John

[Titan]

After several false starts over the past week, a complete rebranded and reworked ScotRail four coach HST set and power cars was released from Wabtec Doncaster on 17th August.

 

The set worked north as 5S04, 15.12 Doncaster Works Wabtec to Haymarket Depot.

 

Here are a few images taken at Doncaster as the set came off the Wabtec site and then departed for Haymarket.

 

1 - 43183 5S04 Doncaster 17082018 - RMweb.jpg

 

2 - 43169 5S04 Doncaster 17082018 - RMweb.jpg

 

3 - 43183 5S04 Doncaster 17082018 - RMweb.jpg

 

4 - Mk3 coaches 5S04 Doncaster 17082018 - RMweb.jpg

 

5 - 43169 5S04 Doncaster 17082018 - RMweb.jpg

 

6 - 43183 5S04 Doncaster 17082018 - RMweb.jpg

 

Unfortunately it was rather dull and overcast in Doncaster so the photos aren't the brightest.

 

I presume they are not contracted to do anything with the bogies?

[royaloak]

Don't think it has been mentioned on this thread. (Apologies if it has)

 

Locomotive Services at Crewe are purchasing HSTs for charter use.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/hsts-bought-for-charter-use?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

Cheers,

Mick

Thats quite interesting because no HST sets have been offered for sale yet and I dont think any 90s have recently either.

[nightstar.train]

Thats quite interesting because no HST sets have been offered for sale yet and I dont think any 90s have recently either.

Maybe not offered, but the writing is on the wall. If you’re serious you could easily approach the leasing companies and make them a serious offer.

 

I wonder what the livery will be? I hope it’s something original, rather than blue and grey! (Ducks and runs for cover)

[caradoc]

Good to see the yellow line on the First Class vehicle ! Despite their age these trains will be a major step up in quality on the key internal Scottish services. Thanks for the photos 4630. 

[4630]

I think ScotRail has played a 'bit of a blinder' by acquiring and using shortened HSTs for some of their internal services.

 

As you say, a step up in quality; From an engineering point of view the sets are, I guess, a largely known quantity;  They should be well suited to keeping, or improving on point-to-point timings if that becomes an operational possibility; And with an engine at each end, a complete failure in the middle of the Highlands should be less likely.

 

You'd like to think that the use of this sort of cascaded and improved HST could be used elsewhere on the network if the infrastructure permits.  Norwich-Liverpool Lime Street and Cardiff-Portsmouth being two that spring to my mind. 

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

I think ScotRail has played a 'bit of a blinder' by acquiring and using shortened HSTs for some of their internal services.

 

As you say, a step up in quality; From an engineering point of view the sets are, I guess, a largely known quantity;  They should be well suited to keeping, or improving on point-to-point timings if that becomes an operational possibility; And with an engine at each end, a complete failure in the middle of the Highlands should be less likely.

 

You'd like to think that the use of this sort of cascaded and improved HST could be used elsewhere on the network if the infrastructure permits.  Norwich-Liverpool Lime Street and Cardiff-Portsmouth being two that spring to my mind. 

 

I completely agree and I personally think that the new livery worn by the ScotRail 43s and MK3s is very smart indeed. I thought that the GWR Green suited them but I think this even exceeds that.