Preorder email

[Philou]

Interesting regarding diversification as Lord and Butler are diversifying into model tanks and other AFVs - not too far removed from railway modelling really. It used to be Peter's hobby all those years ago and Covid rekindled his interest - he hasn't lost his touch either!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

You paint to bleak a picture here. Within a 30 mile radius of my home I can think of 4 town centre model shops plus another 4 model railway outlets (shops on heritage railways) all of which I buy from regularly.

 

You are very fortunate ! Like Legend I live near Glasgow, a very large city, yet my nearest model shops are in Edinburgh and Carlisle, both around two hours away (and one is in another country !) So, along with Covid knocking exhibitions on the head, mail order is my normal route these days. 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

5 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

You are very fortunate ! Like Legend I live near Glasgow, a very large city, yet my nearest model shops are in Edinburgh and Carlisle, both around two hours away (and one is in another country !) So, along with Covid knocking exhibitions on the head, mail order is my normal route these days. 

 

As in many walks of life,it’s usually an accident of geography,though I’m fortunate in that I have two within easy travelling distance.....though I have to confess I rarely purchase from either of them.

 

   Interesting to read Gareth’s observation on customer trends in returning to real as opposed to virtual shopping.

Down to the quality of the premises, stock on display and its owner really .In his particular case top notch but sadly a 50 mile drive.

[Widnes Model Centre]

2 hours ago, Trains4U said:

I can't speak for the others, but Trains4U is a destination model shop, not a box shifter and mail order is a surprisingly small part of our business.

 

Off topic from the main thread but l would like to add:

 

Just to reinforce what Gareth is saying. Our mail order has gone back to pre pandemic levels. Mail order is also a small part of our business. You may be surprised to know it is for a lot of shops.  

 

We we are certainly on Saturdays seeing queues outside from opening to closing times. It is heartwarming to see customers return, also heartbreaking as we know of customers who didn’t survive the pandemic.

 

A lot if shops have reduced their opening times to accommodate cleaning regimes. We are also still finding local delivery is still in demand for those customers who don’t want to or feel uncomfortable returning to normalish shopping.

 

As for Model shops in this area.? I can think of ten shops, all within thirty minutes drive from our shop. At least nine of them sell Model Railway’s. Forty five minutes drive will find you at least five possibly six more Model shops. 

 

So so there are plenty of Model shops, you are just living in the wrong part of the country. Somewhat a tongue in cheek comment. Certainly true in our case that customer loyalty is very much in prominence.

[Hilux5972]

6 hours ago, mvwilson said:

And Hornby do not remove the VAT for overseas customers.

Yes they do

[Hilux5972]

This seems to have been taken slightly off course from what I was intending my post to mean. I wasn’t meaning local shops shouldn’t be supported. If my local shops were closer and I don’t have 4 hours worth of petrol to pay for then yes that would make them cheaper and I would definitely support them. I was meaning that when some people have their preorders cancelled, whether it be by one store or a succession of stores, then they seem to say they will stick with their old dated stock than go directly to Hornby where the brand new version may still be available. That seems a bit like cutting off their nose to spite their face to me. 

[3rd Rail Exile]

1 minute ago, Hilux5972 said:

This seems to have been taken slightly off course from what I was intending my post to mean. I wasn’t meaning local shops shouldn’t be supported. If my local shops were closer and I don’t have 4 hours worth of petrol to pay for then yes that would make them cheaper and I would definitely support them. I was meaning that when some people have their preorders cancelled, whether it be by one store or a succession of stores, then they seem to say they will stick with their old dated stock than go directly to Hornby where the brand new version may still be available. That seems a bit like cutting off their nose to spite their face to me. 

If I understand it, it's cutting off their nose to spite Hornby's face (or an attempt to).  The desire to support the local retailer (or retailers in general) outweighs the desire to have the latest spec model if having it means cutting out the retailer.  Either Hornby sells via the retailer, or it doesn't get the sale.  

 

Unfortunately, that won't work if sufficient people do buy direct from Hornby, as Hornby won't see the reduction in sales...

[MGR Hooper!]

7 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Really makes me laugh. Seen by various comments across different threads, it’s seems People want Hornby products but are not willing to directly support Hornby. They then say if they can’t get the latest version of something from someone other than Hornby, then they will stick to the decades old versions of something. Where is the logic in that? I had my order for the new P2, 9F, and several different W1’s cancelled by Hattons. So I’ve reordered direct with Hornby to ensure I get it, rather than mess around with other model shops which may in turn cancel on me. Is that wrong? Am I stupid for doing it, To ensure I get what I’m after? 

 

TBH I don't have any solid proof that Hornby are cutting down on retailers orders just to sell sell direct... 

 

But what gives me a laugh is that Hornby have always had their own allocation to sell via their own website. That allocation is decided by a dedicated team within the company that handles sales and logistics. Hornby is almost always the last to sell out (unless an item is popular). No one gave a damn about Hornby having stock until now when a few retailers have had their allocations reduced for whatever reason. 

 

Yes I agree for some it's terrible, especially since it's their source of income. I genuinely feel bad for such retailers. But others have literally called for it by over-selling pre-orders. 

 

I'll just wait for a second run of the APT-P if I cannot get one now. It may go up a few quid, but that's alright. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by MGR Hooper!

[newbryford]

12 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

TBH I don't have any solid proof that Hornby are cutting down on retailers orders just to sell sell direct... 

 

 

 

But completely cutting out a retailer order whilst having it available for themselves is as good as.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by newbryford
typo

[MGR Hooper!]

17 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

But completely cutting out a retailer order whilst having it available for themselves is as good as.

 

 

That is obviously not a nice thing to do, it is downright mean. However I do have a reliable source within the industry who gave me a little information about why some retailers have had a partial or full allocation cut. If said reason is true, then I believe Hornby have every right to cancel an allocation (partially or completely). 

A well known modeller has already posted the reason on a facebook group.

If Hornby has cancelled a full allocation for absolutely no reason, then that's unacceptable. It will only hurt them in the end.

Edited May 11, 2021 by MGR Hooper!

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Interesting Gareth . I don't keep up on the board announcements , I tend to think of Mgt as Lyndon Davies and Simon Kohler  who certainly made a big thing about  supporting retailers and generally questioning actions that went on during what SK call his "Sabbatical"

It is of course all a matter of public record so any changes can be easily tracked.  

 

As far as the Board of Directors are concerned the present situation is -

Kirstie Could - appointed to present position on the board 4 Jan 2018 as Company Secretary  (but was I believe previously a senior employee).

Daniel Carter  - appointed 16 Jul 2020 (I think employed by a concern with a shareholding in Hornby)

Lyndon Davies - appointed 5 October 2017.

John Stansfield - appointed 4 January 2018 (but had been a director previously in various roles over some years but had left the board in July 2013.

 

The 2018 appointments are in my view more a reflection of changes made in the early days of Lyndon Davies presence rather than anything else.  The only later appointment - out of the 5 directors - is Daniel Carter.  Thus in reality there has been only a minimal change since LD took over as MD and made his early appointments.

 

There are two traceable people (through RNS) with job titles as directors who are not board members but still have substantial share holdings in the company which they have achieved by exercising options under the group's incentive schemes.  Both of them were very early appointments made by Lyndon Davies.  

 

Thus as far as I can trace those at the top of the company tree are basically the team which was created by Lyndon Davies including the two non-board member directors appointed by him.  I would assume, depending on the degree of delegated authority granted to lower tiers of management, that the team currently making all the important decisions at Hornby is the one Lyndon Davies put in place soon after his arrival.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

That is obviously not a nice thing to do, it is downright mean. However I do have a reliable source within the industry who gave me a little information about why some retailers have had a partial or full allocation cut. I've asked if that info can be made public. If I get the approval I'll share it here.

A well known modeller has already posted the reason in the Dean Park Station facebook group.

If Hornby has cancelled a full allocation for absolutely no reason, then that's unacceptable. It will only hurt them in the end. If my source in the retailer chain is to be believed, then I think Hornby had every right to cancel a retailers order.

I'd be amazed if your source would let you post that information and they might well be cutting their own throat with Hornby if they did (and i suspect that Hornby would be a trifle upset as well?).

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Trains4U said:

The Pandemic did cause a paradigm shift in online ordering.
One could be fooled into thinking that there is a big market to be tapped, and that if this is the new normal, then online retail is the way to go.

However...

Since lockdown eased, my online sales have dropped back to pre-lockdown levels, but walk-in trade is doubled.  The "New Normal" is not the new normal at all.     There is currently a very different pattern of trade, a much more local pattern.

If "Other online platforms" are seeing the same effect, then they may have a bit of a shock in the coming months if their trade has also dried up, especially if they have invested heavily and gambled on the post-pandemic world being an online one.

Speaking to the retailers I know that is very much their pattern - to some extent because one does do a lot of mail order business anyway but the 'real shop on the high street' side of the business is very busy.  Part of the difference I suspect must come down to being known and being in the right location - if you are town centre and parking isn't a problem then that encourages customers, if you are out of town centre you need to not only have the parking space but be known as a retail premises and those factors will affect the way you work.

 

One of my 'local' shops is a long way away - it amounts to a day out - so I also have goods delivered from them by mail order.alythough my preference is obviosuly to visit the premises.  The other one will post stuff if I want but is only just over an hour's drive away so is obviously more likely a personal visit.

Edited May 11, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[john new]

Over they years I have noticed a trend that problems have arisen in the UK model railway supply industry whenever there are three main players, only two come through it. Notable losses even where aspects survive include Hornby-Dublo, Trix, Airfix, Lima, Replica Railways and Graham Farish. We seem to be seeing the emergence of a third wave currently with the rise of retailer/model commissioners/manufacturers and many small suppliers. Interesting times ahead.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by john new
Added Replica to the list.

[GWR-fan]

5 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

................................. However I do have a reliable source within the industry who gave me a little information about why some retailers have had a partial or full allocation cut. I've asked if that info can be made public. If I get the approval I'll share it here.....

 

 

I believe that you should delete this posting until you actually have proof and permission to publicly state  your insider's intelligence on the subject.

Edited May 11, 2021 by GWR-fan
I deleted reference to uncorroborated material in the OP posting

[ruggedpeak]

I went to my local model shop at the weekend to pick up something I had reserved and couldn't get in - one of the owners was on car park duty it was so busy! I went across town to get a Starbucks and came back, and it was even busier, so went into work and came back late afternoon and got in. This may have partly due to the awful weather on Saturday morning but apparently no shortage of punters attending the physical store.

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, john new said:

Over they years I have noticed a trend that problems have arisen in the UK model railway supply industry whenever there are three main players, only two come through it. (Notable losses even where aspects survive include Hornby-Dublo, Trix, Airfix, Lima and Graham Farish) We seem to be seeing the emergence of a third wave currently with the rise of retailer/model commissioners/manufacturers and many small suppliers. Interesting times ahead.

It has of course been going on for quite a long time although there are some more recent significant newcomers such as Minerva, Cavalex, and Accurascale in r-t-r plus the other teend of two major retailers developing a wider range of 'own label items outside the field of locos and rolling stock.    Hornby are unusual among the 'majors' in that the present management madea a conscious decision to get out of commissioned models (which had basically only been livery jobs in their case).

 

More recently there has undoubtedly been the longer term effect of the post Sanda Kan situation in China where some manufacturing newcomers with the skills have offered very attractive terms (usually back end payment only or very limited early stage payments) to encourage new business and it is possible that some UK newcomers might well gone to such concerns as it enables them to start business with little more than sending a few drawings and a pile of photos off to China and waiting for the results - at little or no initial expense to themselves.   On the other hand some commissioners have long been used to making significant investment at each stage of model development and planning their finances accordingly.

[ruggedpeak]

5 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

I believe that you should delete this posting until you actually have proof and permission to publicly state  your insider's intelligence on the subject.

I have been told several contradictory things from "reliable" sources, my view is now that there is no single cause or contributor to the situation but a number of separate things landing at once to coalesce into what we are seeing on the ground.

 

As I already have 2020 catalogue pre-orders in place and have just placed 2021 pre-orders with reputable retailers the proof will be in the pudding. The 2020 items are now in stock at Hornby so lets see if they reach me via the retailers concerned.

 

UPDATE - just had a look for the Pre-order pages I linked to previously. No link on the Hornby homepage any more, have to select from drop down menu and this is what you get, a blank page:

https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/sections/360004136880-Pre-Order

 

Just going to dig out my tinfoil hat, fire up the rumour mill and go full monty X files on this one!!!!

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by ruggedpeak

[atom3624]

Has this recent experience changed people's perceptions of preorders and indeed the consideration of making them?

 

It has certainly made me more wary.

 

Al.

Edited May 15, 2021 by atom3624

[mvwilson]

18 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Yes they do

When do they take it off because my pre order total  says including VAT ? Is it taken off when the order is despatched and paid for?

Edited May 11, 2021 by mvwilson

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, atom3624 said:

Has this recent experience changed people's conceptions of preorders and indeed the consideration of making them?

 

It has certainly made me more wary.

 

Al.

 

Not at all.

 

I very really use pre orders now and I've never had any problems getting what I want. Sometimes at a lower price than the pre-orders were.

 

I was panicking a bit over the Coronation Scot coaches. But have so far got seven and the other two seem to be readily available. Likewise I managed to get a Sir Winston Churchill hearse van which was stated as "Sold out" at many places.

 

The only thing I've currently got on pre-order is the GWR Terrier pack and I'm not worried about that. If it gets pulled then so be it.

 

 

Jason

[ruggedpeak]

4 hours ago, atom3624 said:

Has this recent experience changed people's conceptions of preorders and indeed the consideration of making them?

 

It has certainly made me more wary.

 

Al.

I gave up a few years ago, due to the hassle and unreliability (somethings took sooooooo long to arrive, not Hornby btw), then tried again but ran into issues last year with Hornby items being cancelled by retailers and then trying to track them down. Got everything I was after in the end but not worth the hassle/stress.

 

The whole pre-order thing feels a bit like this at the moment:

 

 

 

[john new]

On 11/05/2021 at 12:51, atom3624 said:

Has this recent experience changed people's conceptions of preorders and indeed the consideration of making them?

 

It has certainly made me more wary.

 

Al.

No, have placed them but have, so far, not found the action of doing so has led to a particularly good end user experience.

 

Hattons 66 - delivered but months late.

TMC G5 - still on order very substantially delayed 

Oxford via Hattons - NER P3 - some options were cancelled (luckily not yet mine) but still on order albeit substantially delayed

Hornby via Hattons - 48Ds - Jim : after waiting 7 months pre-order cancelled. (Order now swapped to TMC)

NRM - Hardwicke - on order; too soon to say how it goes.

NRM - KOYLI - as for Hardwicke.

TMC - Hornby Ruston Rowntrees - placed with TMC as Hattons had let me down; too soon to say how it goes.

 

I didn’t order anything from DJM but reading what happened did not inspire confidence in the process.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by john new
Updated the orders list.

[sandwich station]

8 hours ago, mvwilson said:

When do they take it off because my pre order total  says including VAT ? Is it taken off when the order is despatched and paid for?

 

I'm in Australia and on the odd occasion I ordered direct off of them last year, they deducted 20% VAT and then added 10% GST (Australian Tax) on. I can't remember if it still showed as VAT or just tax.

[Hilux5972]

21 hours ago, mvwilson said:

When do they take it off because my pre order total  says including VAT ? Is it taken off when the order is despatched and paid for?

Here’s my confirmation email.