New Crowdfunded Class 86 or Class 87

[YesTor]

Surely polls on here are mostly worthless.  Only 234 people voted so far and probably near to 234 different conflicting viewpoints.  market research and focus groups etc stifle innovation.  Rarely will people ask for something different from what they already have/know because in the main people are conservative and lack vision.  An example of this was the ford sierra.  A radical departure in car design and initially hated not only did it become a huge seller for ford it also spawned a generation of lookalikes from other manufacturers and changed the established car aesthetic from three boxes on wheels to streamlined hatchbacks.  (initially despised as jelly moulds!) 

 

In the end the most important view has to be DJ's.  Does he want to sell an ultimate detail model at high price to the few, or recreate  Hornby of old and offer basic but largely accurate models for reasonable sums?  

The fact is that generally speaking, a good, innovative product will generate sales from people who actually never thought they wanted it in the first place.  SO if you asked me 2 years ago would I buy a very detailed model class 24 for £280 I'd have definitely said NO WAY!  However 2 years later I've bought one because I was so impressed with it. Not only that but I changed the location of my layout to fit the loco and I'm just about to buy 2 more.

 

How many times do we hear someone on here saying "it's not my era/region /interest but it looks so good I'm going to get one?"  A good product will generate sales, e.g. APT-E how many of us model the WR in 1974 or the outside of the NRM?  Not many.  How many APT-E' are left on the shelf looking for buyers?

SO maybe a better strategy is for Dave to think of a price that will sell well, probably somewhere round £150-£200, decide how much profit margin he wants from it and then build it to the best spec that is affordable at that price.  Don't bother asking us what we want because collectively we don't know.  The only thing we all agree on is it has to be the right shape, the right colour(regardless of livery the colour must be right) and look like the real thing.  The more refinements you can fit in for the price the better.   The better it is the more we will buy and the more people who didn't want one will suddenly feel the need to get one just because it's so good.

 

SO be our shepherd Dave, because for the most part we are sheep, bleating complaints about the most insignificant things, but if you lead us to the good grass we will eat it!

 

I totally agree. As a famous entrepreneur once said, "Customers never know what they want until you show it to them..."  

[GordonC]

I think theres a danger if we're holding out for an all-singing, all-dancing museum quality model then it could quite well price itself out of the market and might never make it off the drawing board. I'd rather have a cheaper version that got the basics right but still gives something to work with if some details need upgrading.

[JSpencer]

I totally agree. As a famous entrepreneur once said, "Customers never know what they want until you show it to them..."  

I think a lot of models are brought by some so that they can have something unique or different on the layout. The header turner on the layout, something that makes people go "ooooooo"

 

So certain innovative gimmicks can work there.

[newbryford]

I think a lot of models are brought by some so that they can have something unique or different on the layout. The header turner on the layout, something that makes people go "ooooooo"

 

So certain innovative gimmicks can work there.

 

But equally, a head turner could be the loco that's had added detail beyond "straight out of the box" by the modeller.

 

[Devil's advocate mode on]

As the price of the models goes up in relation to the supplied detail, is there a possibility that we'll become more reluctant to alter them? Even with the simplest renumber or weathering job?

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[JSpencer]

But equally, a head turner could be the loco that's had added detail beyond "straight out of the box" by the modeller.

 

[Devil's advocate mode on]

As the price of the models goes up in relation to the supplied detail, is there a possibility that we'll become more reluctant to alter them? Even with the simplest renumber or weathering job?

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Yes building or super detailing your own really helps to ensure its uniqueness for many years to come. My W1 still has people going "Ooooooo" and "what is that?" Almost 20 years after building it. My kit Q1 had a similar effect until Hornby released theirs.

 

New RTR can buy a short period of having something new and not very common. The APT-E stands out on most layouts right now, but will probably be old news by 2017 Warley show as most people will have there own by then or simply seen too many (including mine).

[adb968008]

But equally, a head turner could be the loco that's had added detail beyond "straight out of the box" by the modeller.

 

[Devil's advocate mode on]

As the price of the models goes up in relation to the supplied detail, is there a possibility that we'll become more reluctant to alter them? Even with the simplest renumber or weathering job?

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Thats what the second hand market is for.

[Ragtag]

86 in Res gets my vote although I could be tempted by an 87 too.

[jjb1970]

On the business front I don't want to speak for Dave but if it was me then my motivation would be profit. That is often seen as a dirty word but businesses are not charities motivated by altruism, nor should they be. So for Dave it is a calculation whether a balls out super detail model priced at whatever it ends up costing is more or less lucrative than a model pitched to find an optimal compromise between cost and detail.

I think the word compromise is a much maligned word, everything in life is a compromise at some level. If people want the ultimate then are they advocating a brass model selling for circa £1000, if not then why not?

[wombatofludham]

Surely polls on here are mostly worthless.  Only 234 people voted so far and probably near to 234 different conflicting viewpoints.  market research and focus groups etc stifle innovation.  Rarely will people ask for something different from what they already have/know because in the main people are conservative and lack vision.

 

I do wonder just how representative polls on here can be.  As an unscientific example, like many I know a handful of active modellers, about half a dozen, but only myself and one other are in any way active on this forum.  Of the other four who never even read these pages, I know two others who would be in the market for a nice 86 or 87 (or preferably both) but whose views on price, detail and the equation between the two won't be heard.  I don't think my social circle is in any way unrepresentative, so potentially there may be not only the "ooh, I never thought of that" school of modelling who could be stimulated by a nice new AC electric, in effect creating a modelling "sparks effect", but there is almost certainly an existing group who would buy models, who are struggling on trying to detail or hack the crude 1970s stuff output by Hornby and who would potentially part with their cash for a new model, but who may have different views as to what is acceptable in price and detail to the regulars here who, let's face it, tend to have very set views and expectations.

 

​I would hope Dave would have some idea of the hidden market not active on this board and be able to deduce "trends" through the white noise of opinions being expressed in order to build a reasoned overview of the potential for a new model. 

[298]

On the business front I don't want to speak for Dave but if it was me then my motivation would be profit. That is often seen as a dirty word but businesses are not charities motivated by altruism, nor should they be. So for Dave it is a calculation whether a balls out super detail model priced at whatever it ends up costing is more or less lucrative than a model pitched to find an optimal compromise between cost and detail.

I think the word compromise is a much maligned word, everything in life is a compromise at some level. If people want the ultimate then are they advocating a brass model selling for circa £1000, if not then why not?

We're not talking about a model of Leader or a Fell diesel here, it's an 86 or 87 and shouldn't be what spec you think is appropriate but how many each individual would buy. Which to me would say making it attractive for repeat purchasers, instead of an all singing & dancing loco that does wonderful things but costs twice as much.

[reevesthecat]

So after a month and 14 pages what is the result. Is there any consensus on design spec and is the Kickstarter proposal a non starter?

Mark

[DJM Dave]

So after a month and 14 pages what is the result. Is there any consensus on design spec and is the Kickstarter proposal a non starter?

Mark

Hi Mark,

 

Yes there is indeed progress. However, if I may, I'll keep things going until Friday midday when I'll make things clearer for everyone interested.

Cheers

Dave

[Paragon]

I look forward to it, Dave

By the way can I just add that the Austerity tanks are a thing of beauty!

(I know it belongs in another thread!)

Meanwhile, i see the Fell continues to rear its butt ugly head!

Paragon

[Chris Higgs]

We're not talking about a model of Leader or a Fell diesel here, it's an 86 or 87 and shouldn't be what spec you think is appropriate but how many each individual would buy. Which to me would say making it attractive for repeat purchasers, instead of an all singing & dancing loco that does wonderful things but costs twice as much.

 

I tend to agree with this. The 86 was really the workhorse of the WCML and there must be people out there who would want them in quantity. Perhaps I am in the minority but I can live with the Heljan ones I own even though I know it has faults in the shape. But I found their disinterest in producing them in Rail Blue or the original blue or doing an 86/0 quite perplexing.

 

As an aside, I do applaud doing something that existed in quanitity and over many years. I used to excited about the models of one-offs but now I see every layout under the sun has a Blue Pullman and Kestrel and Falcon and DP2 and...

 

Chris

[wombatofludham]

I tend to agree with this. The 86 was really the workhorse of the WCML and there must be people out there who would want them in quantity. Perhaps I am in the minority but I can live with the Heljan ones I own even though I know it has faults in the shape. But I found their disinterest in producing them in Rail Blue or the original blue or doing an 86/0 quite perplexing.

 

As an aside, I do applaud doing something that existed in quanitity and over many years. I used to excited about the models of one-offs but now I see every layout under the sun has a Blue Pullman and Kestrel and Falcon and DP2 and...

 

Chris

 

I feel the same about the Heljan model, however, I'll be up for several AL6 in original blue, and multiple Rail Blue especially if the 86/0, 2 and 3 variants were produced, plus similar levels of Executive livery.  That would be getting on for 20 or so to replace my existing Hornby based models, so obviously, the less expensive the better for me!

[jjb1970]

We're not talking about a model of Leader or a Fell diesel here, it's an 86 or 87 and shouldn't be what spec you think is appropriate but how many each individual would buy. Which to me would say making it attractive for repeat purchasers, instead of an all singing & dancing loco that does wonderful things but costs twice as much.

My own preference is for a model pitched at the same level as the Bachmann class 85. I think that model is an excellent balance between detail, good running and cost. My comment was more to point out that those claiming that this is backwards rhinking are themselves also wanting a compromise, just one at a higher price point.

[James90012]

We're not talking about a model of Leader or a Fell diesel here, it's an 86 or 87 and shouldn't be what spec you think is appropriate but how many each individual would buy. Which to me would say making it attractive for repeat purchasers, instead of an all singing & dancing loco that does wonderful things but costs twice as much.

 

I actually think that's a very good point. For me, as I've said, an 85-standard model is fine. If the price is high, I'll likely take one or two at a push, and retain my HJ 86s, but if the price is more reasonable, I would look to a fleet replacement so 4-5 86s in total. 

 

Ultimately, whilst the HJ86 was a comparatively 'poor' model, it still sold and now they are hens teeth. I think often RMWeb understates/underestimates the size of the hobby which, really, were and are happy with the HJ86. 

[GordonC]

I actually think that's a very good point. For me, as I've said, an 85-standard model is fine. If the price is high, I'll likely take one or two at a push, and retain my HJ 86s, but if the price is more reasonable, I would look to a fleet replacement so 4-5 86s in total. 

 

Ultimately, whilst the HJ86 was a comparatively 'poor' model, it still sold and now they are hens teeth. I think often RMWeb understates/underestimates the size of the hobby which, really, were and are happy with the HJ86. 

 

If the general public were happy with the Heljan 86 it makes it even more remarkable that Heljan haven't done anything to either correct the body or produce alternative versions. Most people agree the chassis is excellent so you'd think that it would be a relatively straightforward job to correct the body compared to producing whole new locos or models of other prototypes,

 

The fact they didn't suggests to me that it wasn't a good seller

[lyneux]

The fact they didn't suggests to me that it wasn't a good seller

 

Maybe it wasn't a good seller because of the body accuracy issues? Catch 22!

 

But yes, I'm surprised too that Heljan haven't corrected it.

 

Guy

[wombatofludham]

I think the two things that counted against the Heljan 86 were the pantograph which was ridiculous, and the bizzare decision to release the model only in a range of less popular privatisation liveries (bar Intercity).  When the model came in for mixed press reviews, it sealed it's fate.

 

You try finding any Intercity (or for that matter, Virgin) examples on eBay below £100, that says to me they are not as unpopular as people say.  If they were shunned by modellers, how come when the odd example crops up on eBay they go for daft money?  If they were really such a lemon, people wouldn't be able to shift them at the prices they fetch.

 

I can't help thinking had Heljan persisted with the model and released banger blue and executive liveried versions it's sales might have been higher.

[James90012]

I also think it came out at a bad time, at the end of the super cheap discounted model era - also see Vitrains 47s, which Hattons were once selling at £39 a pop new. When released through RailExpress they were topping £100, despite being largely the same model just with parts fitted.

 

Those times have gone now, and either way clearly there is demand because the second hand market is not exactly flush with HJ 86s. 

 

This is why the price is important to me, and why I don't think this should do anything above and beyond the 85. 

 

Hopefully we get some good news on Friday and we can reign in the superstition! 

[Wolf27]

I have said before about the Heljan 86 and its faults. I think the reason there is a perceived demand for second hand models is that the chassis paired with a Hornby body is currently the only way to have a decent 86. Yes there are those that say they are happy with it as it is but the lack of subsequent releases suggest otherwise. I believe the first batch sold out to trade but you don't see many left on traders shelves, so it clearly did sell to some degree. I think it was the realisation that the body had been cocked up and the reluctance to admit it was a deciding factor.

 

Playing devils advocate, if anyone from Heljan was to read this thread, now would be the time to have a new body made up and resurrect the rest of the tooling. Stranger things have happened (class 33). That said I guess we are more likely to see a new 86 from Hornby announced toward the end of the year. Again stranger things have happened. (Class 71)

 

Cheers

 

Shane

[jjb1970]

I must admit I tend to agree that if Heljan had done the 86 in BR liveries of the 60's-80's theyd have got more sales. Despite looking sub-par and flawed it was still an 86 with an excellent mechanism. Despite my reservations and disappointment with the model I think I'd have bought a BR blue one. As it was, a combination of a ropey model and liveries that didn't interest me meant I passed even though I love the AC electrics and would like more models.

On sales, I'd be cautious about using Ebay as an indicator. For the manucturer and retailers it is sales of new models that matter. Quite often models that sit on shelves forever and end up being sold off for peanuts end up commanding good s/h prices. Just as some models that command a premium when new and quickly sell out drop to a more realistic price later. Retailers did seem to struggle to shift the 86. However I do think that could well be because it was a sub-par model in liveries that ignored most of the prototypes service career asmuch as or more than an inherent lack of demand for electrics.

[jjb1970]

On the Heljan model, I think they could fit a new pantograph cheaply enough but addressing the other issues would need a full retool of the body which would be pricey. That said, a scale pantograph would be a big improvement and would probably offer a big enough improvement to satisfy a large part of the potential market.

[298]

What seems to be evident from both sales and the more wishlisty posts on here is a significant proportion of people are more interested in certain liveries over any imperfactions in a model, and HJ or the usual retailers have missed a trick in not commissioning a NSE liveried 86401 this year or any of the other liveries that have been missed.