New Crowdfunded Class 86 or Class 87

[Titan]

What about the underframes?

 

Chris

 

I would expect the underframes to be separate moldings anyway. All the chassis components/drive train should be identical.

[YesTor]

y

Let's get real.  Sprung buffers?  Unless you have the eyes of the proverbial shitehouse rat and run your stock with continuous brakes so they don't move when buffering up, will you notice buffer compression on the average layout until the unbraked stock bounces off unrealistically?  So, really, what is the point of them? 

 

I disagree.  Just for the record, if using Kadee couplings the effect of 'coupling up' can be very pleasing.  I like sprung buffers. I'm sure that many others do too.  Just expressing my viewpoint, that's all 

 

 

Absolute rot and you are jumping to a very stupid conclusion. 

 

I'm a realist.  Dave has hinted the cost of a new 86 or 87 with all the gimmicks and toys people seem to keep asking for will be north of £200.  I'm lucky, I can afford that but many can't.  Given AC electric fans are in a minority anyway so the market by default will be lower, if the price is well north of £200 it will depress the market further and as such probably make it unlikely to attract sufficient pledges.  So, wanting the moon and sixpence on the "definitive" 86 or 87 might lead to it becoming the definitive wish-list rather than the definitive model.

 

Okay, I may have resorted to extreme ends in an attempt to illustrate a point.  But still, that aside and I feel that we are perhaps in danger of 'splitting hairs' at this point in the discussion.  I'm sure DJM knows what is/will be viable from a market/cost angle, hence why DJM has produced their forthcoming Class 71/74 to the spec that he has.  In fact, a similar spec to the Class 71/74 is probably a good target?  ie. a notch up (I would estimate) from the Bachmann 85, while still not 'blowing the bank' in terms of costly and (debatably) unnecessary detail.

[newbryford]

Maybe there should be a completely separate poll for:

 

Do I want sprung buffers?

Yes.

No.

 

If you answer yes, then the follow up question is:

 

How much would I pay for this feature

£1

£2.50

£5

£more

(other costs are available)

 

For the relatively small minority that want/need them, let the aftermarket trade sort it out. Otherwise, the detailing industry will die out even more than it is already doing so.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[YesTor]

For the relatively small minority that want/need them, let the aftermarket trade sort it out. Otherwise, the detailing industry will die out even more than it is already doing so.

 

...that depends on your viewpoint, ie. I might want sprung buffers but do I want to have to immediately start hacking at a model that may well have cost £150+ in order to achieve the effect?

 

Answer: probably not 

[lyneux]

...that depends on your viewpoint, ie. I might want sprung buffers but do I want to have to immediately start hacking at a model that may well have cost £150+ in order to achieve the effect?

 

Answer: probably not 

 

As modifications go, fitting sprung buffers probably requires the least hacking. I use Kadees and see no benefit in sprung buffers. This is talking as someone who fitted 51L sprung oleos to a rake of ex-lima PGAs: I probably won't bother with the next lot unless I fit instanters.

[newbryford]

...that depends on your viewpoint, ie. I might want sprung buffers but do I want to have to immediately start hacking at a model that may well have cost £150+ in order to achieve the effect?

 

Answer: probably not 

 

Simple solution. Buffers that simply plug-in. Just like those on a Dapol 73, or Hornby 08/50/60/67. There are probably more model examples.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Roy Langridge]

I have to admit I am finding this thread a little depressing now. We each have aspects of our modelling that we enjoy and that we consider important. I have stated what I look for, but not at the expense of others views. For each person that does not need sprung buffers another will, likewise for cab lights, DCC, sound...

 

As has been said, Dave will know what can be offered at a price, perhaps we should be doing more (as has ben suggested) to identify to him what that price should be. For me, £200 for a model that is DC and can be easily made DCC Sound is acceptable. Dave could then tell us for the generally accepted price I can offer X and we can decide then (maybe via a second poll) whether we want that model.

 

Roy

[Revolution Mike]

Roy

 

The problem is that you have already identified the problem ie that everyone will want different things and be prepared to pay different prices for it. Dave (and I don't envy him this task!) has to try and come to a sensible decision about what is realistic.

 

I completely understand why *some* people want decent sprung buffers or a sprung, wired pantograph but the manufacturer has to make a decision about is the additional cost worth it for the potentially small-ish subset of customers that want a particular feature.  Some are very obvious - who would design a model now without DCC (and preferably DCC sound provision) etc - others are trickier.

 

I don't see a reason to be depressed, it is just life that people want different things. I don't think people are doing down other people's wants just trying to put things into some sort of perspective.

 

Cheers, Mike

[jonathan452]

Maybe there should be a completely separate poll for:

 

Do I want sprung buffers?

Yes.

No.

 

If you answer yes, then the follow up question is:

 

How much would I pay for this feature

£1

£2.50

£5

£more

(other costs are available)

 

For the relatively small minority that want/need them, let the aftermarket trade sort it out. Otherwise, the detailing industry will die out even more than it is already doing so.

 

Cheers,

Mick

http://www.ehattons.com/24242/Bachmann_Branchline_36_032_8_Round_Head_Sprung_Buffers/StockDetail.aspx

[jonathan452]

Could DJ sub-contract the pantograph to somebody like Sommerfeldt? They've been making very fine, accurate functional pans for decades. I honestly can't understand why OO pans have been so problematic (Heljans effort was almost as much an eye sore as the Hornby efforts) when HO and N gauge manufacturers have been making excellent overhead electric models for lord knows how many years.

If I remember correctly from a fairly recent 'Model Rail' article didn't the 'Bee Lane' modellers retrofit their Heljan Class 86's with Summerfeldt pantographs?

[Roy Langridge]

http://www.ehattons.com/24242/Bachmann_Branchline_36_032_8_Round_Head_Sprung_Buffers/StockDetail.aspx

 

So that would indicate the additional cost for having sprung buffers is likely to be very small. That retail price at Hattons includes their profit, packaging by Bachmann, shipping costs to Hattons, Bachmann's profit etc. And is enough to do 2 locos.

 

Roy

[DJM Dave]

Sprung buffers are actually quite cheap to add to a model.

Gimmicky open doors however are just plain daft in my opinion ranking up there with smoke units on diesels. Lol

 

Cheers

Dave

[Removed a/c]

Well if it is sprung buffers or opening doors.......................sprung buffers please. I agree the doors are daft.  Can some enlighten me as to why they think they are a good idea? 

[Jeremy Davison]

If I remember correctly from a fairly recent 'Model Rail' article didn't the 'Bee Lane' modellers retrofit their Heljan Class 86's with Summerfeldt pantographs?

 

Yes, I fitted two Freightliner 86s with Summerfeldt pantograph which was relatively straightforward and renumbered them to ensure that they reflected locos fitted with Stone-Faveley pantographs. Only one is motorised, however was happy to pull a long train around Bee Lane all day at an exhibition.

Bee Lane has now retired although the replacement layout is coming on well, and is slightly longer allowing even longer trains, and again is electrified.

 

However, why a European based company who mainly model in HO managed to make such a mess of a pantograph on the 86 is hard to understand.

Cheers

Jeremy

[HillsideDepot]

Well if it is sprung buffers or opening doors.......................sprung buffers please. I agree the doors are daft.  Can some enlighten me as to why they think they are a good idea? 

As someone who has a number of small layouts where traffic is largely shunting, I quite like having a loco or two with the cab door(s) open. It goes back to the days of Lima diesels when I "opened" cab doors on several locos which, in the case of the class 31, then necessitated the construction on a cab interior. That's not to say that I want Hornby style sprung cab doors, the ability to cut through the body shell myself is fine, but impossible now when there is often a solid chassis block behind. It's certainly not a deal breaker (not that I have any interest in a model 86 or 87, not matter how good), but the option to model an open door would be good - I've even done an open engine room door mid way down a 37.

 

But I might be a minority of one!

[woodenhead]

Is it too much to ask for working flexicoil suspension?

[fozzy280472]

We seem to come back to common ground......all bells and whistles - too expensive , .....reasonable price - not enough detail ..... unfortunately it seems Dave is stuck between a rock and a hard place !

As other posters have stated on numerous other threads , AC electric models appeal to a smallish circle of modellers and I fear if the price is to high it could cause some people to just say " sorry , it's too much money this time " and we end up with a wonderful model but not a commercial success.

This then would cause manufacturers to think twice about releasing more electric locos leaving us all to moan on here about not having an updated class 87 ! It's a vicious circle.

As I said before I think around £150 is probably the ball park figure in my view.

Just a few of my thoughts ,

Cheers

 

Paul

[YesTor]

Well if it is sprung buffers or opening doors.......................sprung buffers please. I agree the doors are daft.  Can some enlighten me as to why they think they are a good idea? 

 

Sprung buffers above opening doors for sure.  I'd add that opening doors are nowhere near essential by any means, I just see them as a nice touch if they are reproduced well; and a lot depends on the prototype too I guess - perhaps not so useful on a mainline AC electric, but for example, they are particularly good on the Hornby Class 08, and after all it's not uncommon at all to see prototype shunters ambling around sidings with door open and crew member half in or half out.  Just a nice feature to be able to reproduce, especially with some of the recent figures of modern-day crew by Model4u etc. 

 

Not so good when they are depicted as on Hornby's Class 56, which to my eye has large and unsightly gaps all the way around.  Hornby's Class 60 is also good with this detail. 

 

Again, not something to lose sleep over if they aren't included, but just nice if done well.

[wombatofludham]

,,,and I fear if the price is to high it could cause some people to just say " sorry , it's too much money this time " and we end up with a wonderful model but not a commercial success.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

As this will need to be crowd-funded unless a kind retailer steps up, I suspect if the price puts people off we won't even get to the point of production.

[lochlongside]

We seem to come back to common ground......all bells and whistles - too expensive , .....reasonable price - not enough detail ..... unfortunately it seems Dave is stuck between a rock and a hard place !

As other posters have stated on numerous other threads , AC electric models appeal to a smallish circle of modellers and I fear if the price is to high it could cause some people to just say " sorry , it's too much money this time " and we end up with a wonderful model but not a commercial success.

This then would cause manufacturers to think twice about releasing more electric locos leaving us all to moan on here about not having an updated class 87 ! It's a vicious circle.

As I said before I think around £150 is probably the ball park figure in my view.

Just a few of my thoughts ,

Cheers

 

Paul

I tend to agree about the £150 - design down to a generally acceptable cost and at least get something that hits shape, performance and finish correct - not voted for either as yet because not sure I would buy either at what my gut feel says currently will be well north of £200+ and loaded with what many could consider non-essential extras but given the number who have voted for both models, and for extras, and the fact that wish list numbers have plateau'd at around 135/155 one wonders if either will even be viable even if crowd-funded.

DJM have understandably been a bit coy about cost of the non-sound but bells and whistle version and the number required to be viable but my guess is for a small number he was looking at north of £250-260  and I wonder how many of us will actually sign up even for one model of something that may hit £300 by the time detailed costings are done especially if it is done in a limited range of liveries that does not chime with the 150 preference voters requirements. Might be better (and more profitable) to do a J6 !! - Not much fun being a mfr but perhaps Dave could give us an outside cost steer - Bachmann class 85 standard in region of £xxx (£180?) for max sales of 500 and the bells and whistles version in region of £3xxx per 100. Cost will be a crucial aspect of this happening/being a success - my guess is if the result is a £300 loco then many of the voters here will drop out - I know I would (if I had voted !!), and if we drop out then wider sales will definitely not happen so Dave will have even less money to build the next model!

[JSpencer]

Sprung buffers are actually quite cheap to add to a model.

Gimmicky open doors however are just plain daft in my opinion ranking up there with smoke units on diesels. Lol

 

Cheers

Dave

 

That depends on the diesel. If its a Deltic, then smoke is essential.

 

How about an electric blue spark effect LED on the pantograph? What? What do you mean that is really daft????

[Roy Langridge]

That depends on the diesel. If its a Deltic, then smoke is essential.

 

But we would need two smoke units, and the ability under DCC to independently turn them on and off

 

As an aside, I dislike Deltics, never have seen the fascination with them myself.

 

Roy

[JSpencer]

But we would need two smoke units, and the ability under DCC to independently turn them on and off

 

As an aside, I dislike Deltics, never have seen the fascination with them myself.

 

Roy

 

It is because they are very loud, make you deaf and then you can start speaking French to everyone: Pardon?

 

 

Hmmm, how about a smoke generator in an electric? Right under the bogie so we can simulate the traction motors burning out. We could then include an opening door with a driver rushing out of it like a cuckoo popping out of a clock. With DCC sound he could even say "cuckoo". Now that would be original on a layout. Ok, we have passed the sublime to the ridiculous.

 

But I will say, I love the idea of DCC control pantos raising up and down.

[The Ghost of IKB]

Surely polls on here are mostly worthless.  Only 234 people voted so far and probably near to 234 different conflicting viewpoints.  market research and focus groups etc stifle innovation.  Rarely will people ask for something different from what they already have/know because in the main people are conservative and lack vision.  An example of this was the ford sierra.  A radical departure in car design and initially hated not only did it become a huge seller for ford it also spawned a generation of lookalikes from other manufacturers and changed the established car aesthetic from three boxes on wheels to streamlined hatchbacks.  (initially despised as jelly moulds!) 

In the end the most important view has to be DJ's.  Does he want to sell an ultimate detail model at high price to the few, or recreate  Hornby of old and offer basic but largely accurate models for reasonable sums?  

The fact is that generally speaking, a good, innovative product will generate sales from people who actually never thought they wanted it in the first place.  SO if you asked me 2 years ago would I buy a very detailed model class 24 for £280 I'd have definitely said NO WAY!  However 2 years later I've bought one because I was so impressed with it. Not only that but I changed the location of my layout to fit the loco and I'm just about to buy 2 more.

How many times do we hear someone on here saying "it's not my era/region /interest but it looks so good I'm going to get one?"  A good product will generate sales, e.g. APT-E how many of us model the WR in 1974 or the outside of the NRM?  Not many.  How many APT-E' are left on the shelf looking for buyers?

SO maybe a better strategy is for Dave to think of a price that will sell well, probably somewhere round £150-£200, decide how much profit margin he wants from it and then build it to the best spec that is affordable at that price.  Don't bother asking us what we want because collectively we don't know.  The only thing we all agree on is it has to be the right shape, the right colour(regardless of livery the colour must be right) and look like the real thing.  The more refinements you can fit in for the price the better.   The better it is the more we will buy and the more people who didn't want one will suddenly feel the need to get one just because it's so good.

 

SO be our shepherd Dave, because for the most part we are sheep, bleating complaints about the most insignificant things, but if you lead us to the good grass we will eat it!

[No Decorum]

Is it too much to ask for working flexicoil suspension?

Perhaps not. After all, Dapol’s Western has spiral springs in its suspension rather than the usual solid, half-round mouldings. We’re half-way there.