More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Craigw]

I picked this negative up on Ebay a couple of weeks ago. I hope @Compound2632 finds it of interest. Taken in 1946.

 

Please do not share on other groups without my permission.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

[Craigw]

Madras on the scrap line at Swindon in 1937.

 

I know the loco should be my object of interest, but you lot would think the same as me. I am particularly taken by the variation in colour of the planks on the end wagon.

 

Another Ebay negative win.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Miss Prism]

3407 Madras didn't get scrapped until 1949. Even if the date is 1937, it's still rather late to be carrying a Westinghouse pump.

 

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Craigw said:

I picked this negative up on Ebay a couple of weeks ago. I hope @Compound2632 finds it of interest. Taken in 1946.

 

Thanks - added to my little list. It's D305, of course, to Drg. 3208, built between 1909 and 1912 or so - Lots 718 to 814 - as indicated by the rectangular numberplate. The long brake lever and pair of Monarch sprung door controllers are the key indicators for Drg. 3208. Oil axleboxes, of course. the first No. 12806 was probably built in the second half of 1866 as one of an order for 1,000 placed with S.J. Claye in February 1866 [Locomotive Committee minute 5156]. How the trade wept when the Midland built its Litchurch Lane C&W Works!

 

That wagon was probably renewed by one of the Drg 213 wagons built in the later 1880s - Lot 134 or Lot 164 - on the basis of a 21.5 year lifetime, that renewal would have been a bit over 21.5 years old itself. So the rot in the renewal cycle set in with this third No. 12806, which remained in service for over 32 years.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, Craigw said:

Madras on the scrap line at Swindon in 1937.

 

I know the loco should be my object of interest, but you lot would think the same as me. I am particularly taken by the variation in colour of the planks on the end wagon.

 

A D1666 of course, in first LMS livery - or at least lettering, but with much re-planking. I think the second and third plank up at the end are unpainted - see the knots - and my guess is that the bottom and top plank, and the door top plank, are earlier replacements, painted bauxite. Characteristically, the grey paint has fallen off the ironwork. It all speaks post-WW2 to me, so I'd go for the 1949 as much more probable than 1937. It's certainly not earlier than 1937.

 

36 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Even if the date is 1937, it's still rather late to be carrying a Westinghouse pump.

 

Which just goes to show that if you want to understand GWR engines, you need to understand LMS wagons.

[Compound2632]

Some more 19th century J. & J. Charlesworth wagons:

 

Bill Hudson, Vol. 3 has a 1913 photo of Charles Roberts' repair shop, with No. 312, a 6-plank side and end door wagon, jacked up without wheels and axleboxes. The return instructions read:

GNR via Lofthouse Junction

MR via Stourton Sidings           E&W.Y.U.Rlys

NER via Methley Branch

 

Keith Turton's Eighth Collection has a couple of panoramic views of Newmarket Silkstone Colliery. One includes Nos. 1545, 1542, 1617, and 1929, along with many others whose numbers are not decipherable. The first two numbers are from a Midland-registered batch of 10-ton wagons built by Charles Roberts in 1889; the register gives the internal length and width as 14' 6" by 7' 0", and depth as 3' 6". They have five wide planks (a good indication of being an earlier build) - about 8 1/2" each - with door three planks high. No. 1617 is from an 1891 Charles Roberts batch; the register records the same dimensions. No. 1929 is not a Midland or MS&L registration; it is a 7-plank wagon but not noticeably taller. There are a number of dumb-buffered wagons of various sizes and antiquity, including one with individual corner-braces rather than continuous corner plates. Another such appears in the second photo (below), which also includes Nos. 2873, 838, and 812, again not known registrations. 

 

 

[Embedded link to Outwood Community Video website.]

 

Turton has another unknown, No. 820, which does seem to be of the same type as Nos. 812 and 838, end door, 6 planks, seen at Robin Hood Colliery.

 

Newmarket Silkstone Colliery again, from another local history site:

 

 

[Embedded link to Woodlesford - The Story of a Station.]

 

The wagon front right might be No. 653? Another unknown registration. The dumb-buffer wagon, which has an interesting twist, appears to be No. 255? - which comes between MS&L registrations in 1894 and 1897, suggesting it was perhaps a wagon on its second or third hire, if not bought outright second-hand. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Compound2632
sp.

[Grahams]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thanks - added to my little list. It'd D302...

Now that definitely sparked my interest! 

However, the photo is certainly of interest and thanks for the background on the history of the number. 

[corneliuslundie]

I can build dumb buffered wagons like that - unfortunately.

J

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Now that definitely sparked my interest! 

 

Corrected in post!

[jamie92208]

Newmarket Silkstone Colliery has been mentioned quite a bit.  However I remember it when it was working.  It was situated just south east of Junction 30 of the M62 with 2 parts on either side of Newmarket Lane and the Methley Joint line just south of it.  The EWYUR came in from the west after crossing what is now the A642 from Patrick Green and Robin Hood.   All of this was on the first police section that I worked at from 74 to late 75.  Here is a loco at the southern main part of the colliery taken in 1974.

And the last remains of the railway line that connected the two parts of the pit.  any Charlesworth wagons would have gone across here.

And just for completeness the last remaining rails that formed part of the EWYUR where they cross Milner Lane at Robin Hood just by Charlesworth Robin Hood colliery aka Jane pit.

Jamie

 

PS I promise not to be naughty again and keep going OT.

 

1

 

 

[Compound2632]

Well, one could hardly say that diversion was off the rails or not on track!

 

Pope & Pearson, West Riding Colliery, Altofts, and J. & J. Charlesworth, West Riding Collieries, Nr. Wakefield (something of a catch-all) in company at Ingrow, sometime in the 1890s, in a crop of a photo I had from David Pearson of the K&WVR some time ago:

 

 

The Midland D351 wagon to the left was perhaps in lime traffic? But I think there can be no doubt this PO wagon, sandwiched between two D299s, was:

 

 

There was another J. & J. Charlesworth wagon in the yard that day, dumb-buffered but rather more sprucely painted and not bearing much relation to others we've seen:

 

 

But just to confuse matters, in addition to J. & J. Charlesworth's Newmarket Silkstone Colliery, there's this:

 

 

Haigh Moor Collieries, trading under the Newmarket name. I can't quite make out the name of the colliery, on the bottom plank. This wagon has a short wheelbase - 8 ft?

 

there are several wagons for john Bracewell, evidently a local coal merchant, each charmingly antique in its individual way. This one appears to be 9 ft wheelbase with iron brake blocks, but others are shorter and at least one has wooden brake blocks:

 

 

One is freshly painted ans gives the name as James Bracewell, rather than John.

 

But there are also quite a number of mystery dumb-buffer wagons with no lettering visible at all. 

[jamie92208]

A fascinating set of photos.  There were so many Collieries, often short lived in that area.  Haigh Moor was a Coal seam so had a particular grade of coal.  In fact my daughters house is on a former colliery site that has all it's roads named after coal seams including Haigh Moor. I will have a look in D L Franks' book about the EWYUR as it has a good map showing a lot of the pits in that area. 

 

Jamie

[phil_sutters]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But just to confuse matters, in addition to J. & J. Charlesworth's Newmarket Silkstone Colliery, there's this:

 

 

Haigh Moor Collieries, trading under the Newmarket name. I can't quite make out the name of the colliery, on the bottom plank. This wagon has a short wheelbase - 8 ft?

 

t

My immediate thought was Spencer Colliery, but when I searched on that most references came up with Frederick Spencer and his connections to the Somerset coalfield and quarries. So a bit too far away.

[jamie92208]

I think there was a Spencer pit but research will have to wait as the bok is in the shed and I am tasked with heading for the supermarket. 

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Haigh Moor was a Coal seam so had a particular grade of coal.

 

Aha, like Silkstone. Was Lidgett a seam? At Skipton, A.H. Preston was a customer of Lidgett Colliery, with originating station given as Wentworth. Only 148 tons, mostly in the colliery's wagons,but more than from a good number of well-known collieries. The Durham Mining Museum site has some information: http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/l219.htm. 

 

It's about in the middle of this 1903 OS sheet, next to Wentworth & Hoyland Common Station on the MR Chapletown Branch Extension: https://maps.nls.uk/view/125649864. It closed in 1911 but pre-dated the opening of the Chapeltown extension line, being served by its own mineral line, which even in 1890 had been cut short beyond its original length, or so it seems: https://maps.nls.uk/view/125649861. This line ran via an incline to a canal basin at Elsecar, where it also met a branch of the MS&LR: https://maps.nls.uk/view/125649939; the Midland line passed under this branch.

[mikeallerton]

3 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

My immediate thought was Spencer Colliery, but when I searched on that most references came up with Frederick Spencer and his connections to the Somerset coalfield and quarries. So a bit too far away.

According to the Northern Mines Research Society, the Newmarket, Spencer Pit was at Stanley, Wakefield and operated from 1888 to 1913

https://www.nmrs.org.uk/assets/mines/coal/yorkshire/1854/N.html

[Buhar]

5 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

There were so many Collieries, often short lived

It was a really transient business, wasn't it.  Local coal traders operating for 20 years or so, maybe with a name change along the way, collieries being worked out or the industries served closing.  Alongside that we're trying to find the right wagon in the right livery for our chosen timescale.  Obviously many bits of the industry were long lasting (Ayres of Reading still a going concern) but there are a lot of moving targets.

 

Alan

[sir douglas]

14 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

PS I promise not to be naughty again 

 

 

 

Do you whats naughty? People showing so many interesting wagon photos in this thread making me want to build them

[jamie92208]

13 minutes ago, mikeallerton said:

According to the Northern Mines Research Society, the Newmarket, Spencer Pit was at Stanley, Wakefield and operated from 1888 to 1913

https://www.nmrs.org.uk/assets/mines/coal/yorkshire/1854/N.html

Yes it was.  Just north of the M62 a short distance west of Junction 30 near Dungeon Lane. 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/100947704

There were several Newmarket pits, Swithens also known as Newmarket Haigh Moor, just north of Spencer pit which was also known as Newmarket Haigh Moor,  Nelson pit which was the part of Newmarket colliery immediately south east of Junction 30 which was connected to  Newmarket Colliery Bye pit by the rails across Newmarket Lane in my post above.  Bye pit was renamed Newmarket Silkstone, presumably when they started mining the Silkstone seam. Coliery naming is complex and confusing as I am finding out.  Often a new shaft would be given it's own name. And pits would change names when new owners took over often after

Bankruptcy.   

 

Franks notes that the EWYUR owned 300 wagons mainly built by Birmingham Carriage and wagon

 

As a aside, during my research into J B Beadman and his wagon works I've come across something that may interest @WFPettigrew.   In 1914 Beadman took out a patent for a new type of axlebox that kept water out of the bearing.  His partner in this was Harry Johnson Macklin of Ulverston.  He is described as a blast furnace manager.  Maybe this is the connection that got coal Merchants in that area ordering wagons from Beadman. 

 

Jamie

[Mr T]

I haven't anything useful to add, but the pictures and discussion have been fascinating. Especially so as I live about 100 yards from the line of the old EWYUR in Rothwell. Our house is an old farmhouse that was built well before the railway came and obviously still around. I am interested in the history of the area, despite only living here since 1990. What is title of the book about the EWYUR mentioned?

[jamie92208]

2 minutes ago, Mr T said:

I haven't anything useful to add, but the pictures and discussion have been fascinating. Especially so as I live about 100 yards from the line of the old EWYUR in Rothwell. Our house is an old farmhouse that was built well before the railway came and obviously still around. I am interested in the history of the area, despite only living here since 1990. What is title of the book about the EWYUR mentioned?

It's The East and West Yorkshire Union Railways by D L Franks published by Turntable Enterprises of Leeds.  ISBN in my copy is 0 902844 18 0 , I suspect that it would now start with 978 as well as ISBN's are now 13 characters.  My interest came about as my first posting a a police officer in February 1974 was to a town that I'd never heard of called Rothwell.  I worked there for 2 years and explored all the area on foot and in a car.  There was also a good collection of 6" maps in the police station on Haigh Road and I spent many hours poring over them.   Most of the EWYUR trackbeds was still extant and a Mk 1 Escort could drive along much of them.  The only track remaining then was the crossing on Milner Lane and the Exchange sidings for the GNR at Lingwell Gate.  Rothwell section, post 1974 uniquely contained the whole area served by the railway.  Much of the trackbeds have now gone under roadworks and housing developments.  

 

Jamie

 

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

It's The East and West Yorkshire Union Railways by D L Franks published by Turntable Enterprises of Leeds.  ISBN in my copy is 0 902844 18 0 , I suspect that it would now start with 978 as well as ISBN's are now 13 characters. 

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9780902844186/East-West-Yorkshire-Union-Railways-0902844180/plp (for example)

 

Australians may be able to consult it via their National Library:

https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/catalog/1381425

where it appears to be classified as "Literary Dramatic Musical".

Edited December 12, 2023 by Compound2632

[sir douglas]

@Mr T

http://www.lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk/E&WYUR.htm

[figworthy]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Much of the trackbeds have now gone under roadworks and housing developments.  

 

 

I wonder how many of those house owners have bothered to look up what their shiny new house was built over.

 

A few years back, I was working with a lad who'd just bought his first house on the outskirts of Dudley (Wet Mudlands), and I suggested to him that he looked up what the site had been.  A quick session on the NLS site produced a combination of surprise and horror.  Even though he was a local lad, he'd no idea of the history of the area.

 

Adrian

[jamie92208]

I've just had a fascinating conversation with one of Joseph Blockley Beadman's great granddaughters.  I hope that you will bear with me detailing some of the research that I've done over the past few months and what I've found out about this rather obscure wagon building firm.

 

Joseph Blockley Beadman was born in Leicestershire in 1852 and died in Keighley in 1920.   His son Percy carried the business on and his son carried it on until it closed in the early 1960's.   

 

Joseph became a joiner and in 1871 was living in lodgings in Masborough Rotherham, from where he married Elizabeth.  They must have shocked Victorian Society as they got divorced on the 14th November 1876.  Elizabeth remarried fairly soon, joseph remarried 4 days after the decree and married Margaret Walker in Keighley.   They had four children and by the early 1880's he had established a railway wagon repairing and building business at Lawkholme lane in Keighley.  This was alongside the Midland main line near to the small Keighley Loco shed. Presumably the opening of the Settle and Carlisle Line produced a need for more wagon repairers for passing freight trains.  The works was equipped with a cripple siding, presumably for defective wagons detached from passing trains.

  

The first record of a Beadman built wagon is in Midland Register Rail 491 and entry no 1383 on 3rd May 1885.

This was a 10 ton capacity wagon for J Hargreaves of Keighley their No 4.  Their number 6 was another identical wagon carrying the number 6 which is entry 1385 on the 16th May.     In the 1881 census Beadman is listed as having 2 employees at his wagon repair works.  

 

The works were doubled in size in the 1890's   and over the next 40 years they built over 840 wagons.   The last that we have record of is strangely enough also for J Hargreaves of Keighley.  This was also a 10 ton wagon and was their number 14 registered as no 79270 on 23rd October 1923.  The works still exists as a car repair shop though no longer rail connected.

 

Mr Beadman was obviously active in his trade and family legend has him travelling extensively to the US and Russia.   The only trace of these travels is a trip to Quebec on SS Teutonic a White Star liner in April i914.  The Russian travels could have been connected with sourcing timber for the works.   

 

He is described on the 1891 census form as a Manager and part time traveller for Railway Wagon building and repairing.

 

In 1914 he also registered a patent for a new type of axlebox that separated water from the oil if water had got inside the axlebox.   This was developed by him and Harry Macklin a Works Blast Furnace manager from Ulverston, Lancashire.

 

Though it seems that most of the firms output was registered by the Midland Railway wagons were also registered by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway  and the Great Northern Railway.   The L & Y was relatively local and the GNR actually ran into Keighley.  Only one of the four L and Y registers has been transcribed and I am still trying to find out if the GNR registers exist.  There is obviously more research to be done.  The two known L & Y wagons were for a J Feather in 1893.

 

I hope that this is of interest.

 

Jamie

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by jamie92208