NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[Damo666]

Didn't Dave say a few posts back that in order to get the project moving forwards to the EP sample he has had to approach the box shifters, to get the critical number of orders together? It is a compromise but then if the project does not move to the next step now it could be a long wait, costs could increase, or it doesn't progress beyond the CAD stage and then none of those orders will be fulfilled.

 

This is a crowdfunded project - so the process is being driven by our deposits and advanced orders!

Yes, and so that I am absolutely clear, I want this project to go ahead and for me to have a lovely Class 92 to play with. An alternative scenario where Hattons et al do not stock the model and the whole project fails would be really regrettable. So I support the move to ensure success.

 

I'd just like to also know that we, as crowdfunders, will also benefit from a cheaper model as a reward for being an 'early investor'. As Dave said in post #589, "You'll also get them at a special price". So I'm hoping that he makes sure Hattons corrects their prices.

[Hilux5972]

Yes, and so that I am absolutely clear, I want this project to go ahead and for me to have a lovely Class 92 to play with. An alternative scenario where Hattons et al do not stock the model and the whole project fails would be really regrettable. So I support the move to ensure success.

 

I'd just like to also know that we, as crowdfunders, will also benefit from a cheaper model as a reward for being an 'early investor'. As Dave said in post #589, "You'll also get them at a special price". So I'm hoping that he makes sure Hattons corrects their prices.

Also don't forget, as with all Daves crowdfunded locos, the number/Livery combination on the crowdfunded locos will not be reissued, or available to anyone other than those who help crowdfund the model. Any that Hattons or any other retailer stock will be different to the crowdfunded ones.

[PeteB]

. So I'm hoping that he makes sure Hattons corrects their prices.

 

Dave can tell Hattons what their trade price is, and he can advise them of the Recommended Retail Price, but it is just that, recommended. He cannot force them to sell for any particular price, that would be Retail Price Maintenance, and it is illegal.  Hattons can decide what they would like to sell them for, and if they want to sell them for less and accept a lower profit margin that is their choice.  If Hattons have put the lower prices up in error, they may choose to correct them, but Dave cannot force them to do so.

[JSpencer]

Dave can tell Hattons what their trade price is, and he can advise them of the Recommended Retail Price, but it is just that, recommended. He cannot force them to sell for any particular price, that would be Retail Price Maintenance, and it is illegal.  Hattons can decide what they would like to sell them for, and if they want to sell them for less and accept a lower profit margin that is their choice.  If Hattons have put the lower prices up in error, they may choose to correct them, but Dave cannot force them to do so.

 

It seems almost certainly an error as the N gauge versions are the same price when they are normally c£25 less. TBH, I suspect the current price shown is at a loss for Hattons. Anyway, we will either see them revised upwards or not in the coming days.

 

This is not the first time we have seen errors. The crowd sourced 71s appeared on many retailers websites at the start until DJM went around telling them they were not retail items. They were subsequently removed.

[PM47079]

I do hope so.

[brittannia]

Dave can tell Hattons what their trade price is, and he can advise them of the Recommended Retail Price, but it is just that, recommended. He cannot force them to sell for any particular price, that would be Retail Price Maintenance, and it is illegal.  Hattons can decide what they would like to sell them for, and if they want to sell them for less and accept a lower profit margin that is their choice.  If Hattons have put the lower prices up in error, they may choose to correct them, but Dave cannot force them to do so.

Don't Bachmann do that?

[PM47079]

The Heljan 58s that Olivias released are not knocked out cheap by hattons, so I don't see why the 92 should be any different. To be honest and with no malice intended to anyone else and their point of view ,this will be my first and last crowd funding experience. I don't want a big fleet of 92s just a nice accurate one, and hopefully a bit cheaper than the big box shifters can do as a reward for my commitment to the project

[YesTor]

So I'm hoping that he makes sure Hattons corrects their prices.

 

That must be the first time I've heard anyone complain that the price is too low. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by YesTor

[letterspider]

That must be the first time I've heard anyone complain that the price is too low. 

 

[srihaggis]

That must be the first time I've heard anyone complain that the price is too low. 

You must have missed the APT-E thread...

[dogbox321]

Yes, and so that I am absolutely clear, I want this project to go ahead and for me to have a lovely Class 92 to play with. An alternative scenario where Hattons et al do not stock the model and the whole project fails would be really regrettable. So I support the move to ensure success.

 

I'd just like to also know that we, as crowdfunders, will also benefit from a cheaper model as a reward for being an 'early investor'. As Dave said in post #589, "You'll also get them at a special price". So I'm hoping that he makes sure Hattons corrects their prices.

 

The non-crowdfunded class 92's are just a bog-standard product, which all retailers are discounting from.  DJ tells the retailers what price they are paying (which I imagine will be a little south of the crowdfund multi-purchase pre-order price), and after that its for the retailer to set their own price.  I've had a crowdfund model too, but just because I have had one of those, it don't mean, I should then demand retailers sell at full price.   There are very few shops that sell at full RRP, its called a market economy, which we all have the opportunity to benifit from.   All Dave has done the crowdfund for is to 'subsidise' the development cost of the model, and in exchange offered modellers "exclusive livery/number combinations".  Personally, if I were going to have a gripe over anything, it would be why, crowdfunding deadline has gone twice, and it still appears people can still join in the crowdfunding! 

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Damo666]

I applaud DJs CrowdFunding Initiative (CFI for simplicity sake). And as I’ve said in an earlier post, I also support this one as I too want his Class 92.

 

I assume DJ doesn’t have 100% of the funds himself to fully invest so he seeks lots of individuals to invest as an up-front cost, one of which is me. And I understand that the same model will become available at a later date via retailers. This is all good too.

 

But there is an aspect to this arrangement which I believe is crucial for it to work.

 

I’m one of those people who don’t care whether my Class 92 has a certificate or loco number that isn’t available to the masses. I would just like the Class 92! So I could easily wait and buy from Hattons or whatever other retailer offers the locomotive at a later date. If the price from these retailers are the same, or cheaper (in the case of the sound model), then why would I want to participate in the CFI? After all, the price is the same/cheaper, I get to keep my money in my wallet for another year and I can make a last minute decision not to buy if the reviews are not good. Unless I want a unique number (I could always change this myself with transfers) or I want a collectors certificate, there is no advantage, is there? If more people think this way then the CFI may not reach critical mass.

 

So, in order to protect any new CFI for future models there has to be an advantage to, not just the collector looking for a certificate, but the person who just wants the model.

 

What happens if, next time, lots of people decide to wait to get the DB Scheneker with a slightly different number via a retailer (and I’m OK with this), for the same price which everyone else paid via the CFI 18 months earlier? Perhaps only collectors will join the initiative, or those who get a discount if they buy multiples. The consequences will be that the initiative may not reach the critical mass to move forward. I wouldn't want to see this happen.

 

If anyone sees this as a gripe, then that’s unfortunate. I’m looking to protect the idea so that the next time there is a crowdfunding scheme there will be a real benefit for investing early, otherwise many people may decide to wait for it to hit the shops. I have comfort that Dave has reiterated in his post #589 that we will get them at a special price.

 

(Hatton’s Prices checked and remain the same similar price to the crowdfunding as of 5^th June 2017 @ 16:10hrs)

[njee20]

Yes the undercutting by Hattons of the crowdfunded price is a little unfortunate. Dave can't dictate what Hattons must sell their stock for, and it's a slightly invidious position - I presume they're a major buyer of his, so I doubt he wants to irk them too much with demands.

 

If people buy more than one they're definitely better off than buying through Hattons, but quite why one would tie their capital up otherwise is uncertain, beside from supporting a fledgling company and/or wanting the 'rarer' numbered model.

 

I am perhaps one of those who are 'to blame', I submitted an expression of interest for an N gauge one, but then backed the other manufacturer offering one as i have seen their products in the flesh and Dave wasn't doing the livery I wanted (although it was added later, I had already paid deposits elsewhere).

 

There's every chance I'll buy one of Dave's still when they arrive, but not a crowdfunded one, there's just not the incentive. I'll be honest I'm watching timescales too, as tooling was scheduled to start immediately after Chinese New Year, and yet now the entire project is teetering on the edge of viability?

[WILLIAM]

If people buy more than one they're definitely better off than buying through Hattons, but quite why one would tie their capital up otherwise is uncertain, beside from supporting a fledgling company and/or wanting the 'rarer' numbered model.

 

 

For me the bigger issue is about risk and reward. As I understand it Crowdfunders are taking an element of risk in that if, for whatever reason, the project could not be completed they may not get back some or all of their money paid so far as it has most likely already been spent developing the project. We are also trusting that the product will be good pre-any third party reviews etc. For taking this risk I believe there should be a reasonable reward which is unfortunately not the case if you compare what Hattons are offering them for if you only put yourself down for one Crowdfunded model (5 pence difference).

 

I personally have decided to stick with the project however, in fact I've just ordered my fourth Crowdfunded 92, as the rewards for ordering multiple models improve and I'm keen to support DJM in this venture as otherwise we may never have seen what promises to be a top spec class 92 in 00. I also take confidence from the class 71 results achieved by DJM but I'm not blind to the Crowdfunder risk, no matter how small it may be.

[Roddy Angus]

I think we need to wait and see what happens about Hattons' price once Dave has been in touch with them, as has already been suggested, it may be a misunderstanding on Hattons' part.  

 

I would have thought that the original cost of the Class 92s would have been based on actual costs plus an element for Dave's time (wage/profit).  I assume that this is the price which was offered to crowdfunders (I've ordered 2 so I declare an interest).  Since the minimum quantity to make the project viable has not been reached, Dave has approached a number of retailers and offered them the opportunity to purchase models.  I would assume that the same pricing elements would apply, therefore unless Dave is charging retailers the same price as crowdfunders, he will have to reduce his wage/profit element.  I don't know how much Dave built in for this but I suspect he would not be able to reduce it by much unless he wants to starve.  The only other way that Dave could charge less would be if the retailers ordered sufficient numbers so that economies of scale kick in, that might be the case, I don't know.  On top of whatever they pay Dave, retailers will have to add their profit.  That is a decision for them and it is possible that they have decided to not make a profit, or even a loss if they have to pay postage.

 

As far as I am concerned, there is no difference between an individual buying 3 models with the intention of then selling them on for a profit or a retailer buying 50 models to then sell them on for a profit.  Both are having to fund the model through the crowdfunding method and both are making a profit.  My only concern would be if the crowdfunders were subsidising the retailers purchases, but since I am sure Dave priced these models with only crowdfunders in mind, I think that that is unlikely.  Everyone, those buying for their own use; those who are intending to sell on privately; and retailers are contributing towards the same cost for developing and producing the models so there are no losers and everyone is being treated equitably.

 

At the end of the day, crowdfunders will get what they ordered at the price they expected, which might not have happened if the retailers had not stepped in. Retailers will make some profit and Dave will get something back for all the time and effort he has put into the design and hopefully everyone will be happy.  The only ones who are likely to lose out are those who were hoping to sell an 'exclusive' model for a handsome profit, which might now be not so 'handsome'.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

[DJM Dave]

I think we need to wait and see what happens about Hattons' price once Dave has been in touch with them, as has already been suggested, it may be a misunderstanding on Hattons' part.  

 

I would have thought that the original cost of the Class 92s would have been based on actual costs plus an element for Dave's time (wage/profit).  I assume that this is the price which was offered to crowdfunders (I've ordered 2 so I declare an interest).  Since the minimum quantity to make the project viable has not been reached, Dave has approached a number of retailers and offered them the opportunity to purchase models.  I would assume that the same pricing elements would apply, therefore unless Dave is charging retailers the same price as crowdfunders, he will have to reduce his wage/profit element.  I don't know how much Dave built in for this but I suspect he would not be able to reduce it by much unless he wants to starve.  The only other way that Dave could charge less would be if the retailers ordered sufficient numbers so that economies of scale kick in, that might be the case, I don't know.  On top of whatever they pay Dave, retailers will have to add their profit.  That is a decision for them and it is possible that they have decided to not make a profit, or even a loss if they have to pay postage.

 

As far as I am concerned, there is no difference between an individual buying 3 models with the intention of then selling them on for a profit or a retailer buying 50 models to then sell them on for a profit.  Both are having to fund the model through the crowdfunding method and both are making a profit.  My only concern would be if the crowdfunders were subsidising the retailers purchases, but since I am sure Dave priced these models with only crowdfunders in mind, I think that that is unlikely.  Everyone, those buying for their own use; those who are intending to sell on privately; and retailers are contributing towards the same cost for developing and producing the models so there are no losers and everyone is being treated equitably.

 

At the end of the day, crowdfunders will get what they ordered at the price they expected, which might not have happened if the retailers had not stepped in. Retailers will make some profit and Dave will get something back for all the time and effort he has put into the design and hopefully everyone will be happy.  The only ones who are likely to lose out are those who were hoping to sell an 'exclusive' model for a handsome profit, which might now be not so 'handsome'.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

Hi from afar, and please note that Hattons were informed of the correct prices on Saturday. I think I've also altered those prices in the posting I did here the other day to show the higher RRP.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Legend]

The non-crowdfunded class 92's are just a bog-standard product, which all retailers are discounting from.  DJ tells the retailers what price they are paying (which I imagine will be a little south of the crowdfund multi-purchase pre-order price), and after that its for the retailer to set their own price.  I've had a crowdfund model too, but just because I have had one of those, it don't mean, I should then demand retailers sell at full price.   There are very few shops that sell at full RRP, its called a market economy, which we all have the opportunity to benifit from.   All Dave has done the crowdfund for is to 'subsidise' the development cost of the model, and in exchange offered modellers "exclusive livery/number combinations".  Personally, if I were going to have a gripe over anything, it would be why, crowdfunding deadline has gone twice, and it still appears people can still join in the crowdfunding! 

 

Regards,

 

C.

Because he hadn't got enough numbers yet? Seriously selling this model in slightly different form through major retailers seems sensible to me . I would say it should be priced slightly higher than crowdfunded ones though , otherwise who will sign up for future crowdfunding models? No doubt Hattons will be getting allowance for buying in bulk. The fact that they are apparently able to sell them at prices close to crowdfunding suggests there is enough margin in models for both Dave and Hattons. Neither are a charity. And the price compares well with some other recent releases

[njee20]

Hi from afar, and please note that Hattons were informed of the correct prices on Saturday. I think I've also altered those prices in the posting I did here the other day to show the higher RRP.

 

Cheers

Dave

Are you mandating they sell at RRP though? Surely they can advertise a lower price?

[DJM Dave]

Are you mandating they sell at RRP though? Surely they can advertise a lower price?

Why would I break the law?

RRP is RRP, not a price that any stockist has to abide by.

 

What it did, was show Hattons a revised RRP, and more importantly to them, a revised trade price.

 

Simples

[DJM Dave]

Yes the undercutting by Hattons of the crowdfunded price is a little unfortunate. Dave can't dictate what Hattons must sell their stock for, and it's a slightly invidious position - I presume they're a major buyer of his, so I doubt he wants to irk them too much with demands.

If people buy more than one they're definitely better off than buying through Hattons, but quite why one would tie their capital up otherwise is uncertain, beside from supporting a fledgling company and/or wanting the 'rarer' numbered model.

I am perhaps one of those who are 'to blame', I submitted an expression of interest for an N gauge one, but then backed the other manufacturer offering one as i have seen their products in the flesh and Dave wasn't doing the livery I wanted (although it was added later, I had already paid deposits elsewhere).

There's every chance I'll buy one of Dave's still when they arrive, but not a crowdfunded one, there's just not the incentive. I'll be honest I'm watching timescales too, as tooling was scheduled to start immediately after Chinese New Year, and yet now the entire project is teetering on the edge of viability?

Oh there is an incentive, you just don't know it yet.

[njee20]

Mmm, you kept liveries up your sleeve and I bought elsewhere after giving you dozens of hints, there's the 'competition' you've not said anything concrete about; give us an incentive Dave, a tangible one. I'll gladly splash out on another 92!

 

Why didn't tooling start straight after CNY as you said a few pages back? 4 months on the project is in crisis. Right now I'm lacking the confidence to buy, some backers are smarting from last week's announcement, there are times when tipping the wink and saying "ahhh just you wait..." is a cunning business strategy and this really isn't one of them IMO.

Edited June 5, 2017 by njee20

[PeteB]

I think that some of the people whinging that there is not enough incentive to order a crowdfunded model are missing the point.

 

By joining in with the crowdfunding, we are each helping to make it happen.  If we all sit back and wait to see what appears in the box shifters at what price, the end result is that the model won't appear at all.

 

I'm happy to support Dave's effort and, in a very tiny way, become part of the team that made it happen, and that in itself gives me some pleasure, whether or not that means I get it cheaper than others (and I'm not that bothered about certificates etc either).

 

Fortunately, I suspect that for every complaining post on here, there are probably 10 or more people ordering a crowdfunded loco (or often more than one).

 

So come on - join the effort, order a crowdfunded one and help us all to get the loco we want. (and no, I'm not getting a commission from Dave :-)  )

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[bensanchez43310]

Im happy to support this, already kick starting with 2 92's, and i need the money not the reasons to bag up 92033 or 92038 and 92037, after all, the first name in my double barrel surname is o'sullivan, so passing up 92037 isnt something im willing to do. As long as i get a quality model at the end, im happy waiting as long as its at its best.

[DJM Dave]

Mmm, you kept liveries up your sleeve and I bought elsewhere after giving you dozens of hints, there's the 'competition' you've not said anything concrete about; give us an incentive Dave, a tangible one. I'll gladly splash out on another 92!

Why didn't tooling start straight after CNY as you said a few pages back? 4 months on the project is in crisis. Right now I'm lacking the confidence to buy, some backers are smarting from last week's announcement, there are times when tipping the wink and saying "ahhh just you wait..." is a cunning business strategy and this really isn't one of them IMO.

Project in crisis? Lacking confidence?

 

Can't agree on the first, and doubt the crowdfunders would agree on the other.

 

There are still a few things to announce, plus the draw prizes, and some commercial tie ups regarding new liveries etc.

Lots of irons in the fire, and I respect your choice to go elsewhere even if loses the DJM crowdfunding a model.

 

Cheers

Dave

[njee20]

I don't want to speak out of turn Dave, and I speak only for myself. Obviously I want you to succeed, and for everyone to end up with a superb model, I just feel things are a bit amiss:

- you said you'd invoice everyone by 5th March and tooling would commence immediately. Here we are 3 months on and that's not happened, but no reason why, indeed you still seem to be accepting orders after the deadline has passed, twice

- despite that last point you're now hinting at incentives to crowdfund, why not mention these before going to retailers? Surely if you can say "buy now and you'll get entered into a draw for a cab ride with DBS and you'll get a discount on my forthcoming Caledonian sleeper coaches" (I'm making it up) then you'll drum up sales of the crowdfunded models

- the retailer thing must have taken some organisation, you say it was a necessity to shore up disappointing sales of crowdfunded models (hence my saying in crisis), yet the first you mentioned was when Hattons newsletter came out announcing it. Again, why not be forthcoming and tell people sales aren't as expected? people will likely stump up for more models.

- you're not even updating the n gauge thread, and no one's really commenting, doesn't that tell you that something is awry? You have a good channel here, support it. You've commented (in this thread) that this is about both models both definitely going ahead. Is this true still?

- why are there still things to announce and irons in the fire? Again, the deadline for orders was 3 months ago! We should be at the stage of receiving samples by your own timelines, with tooling nearly complete.

I've mentioned before how giving deadlines which whistle by is counter productive, and reduces confidence versus not giving deadlines at all. This entire project had a very aggressive time line from inception and it seems to be slipping, whilst we're still getting promises of reasons to sign up, why didn't you get these in place in the beginning?

I know you're in the business of making (excellent by all accounts) models, not marketing, but yes, I really do lack the confidence to crowdfund a model, and a vague hint of an incentive and a competition which has been 6 months in the making doesn't sway me at the moment. Like others I will wait and buy from a retailer instead as it stands, why wouldn't I?

Edited June 6, 2017 by njee20