NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[Great Western]

All well and good to sit back and not make a fuss, however you are an investor who after handing over payment to a contractor to provide you with a model, you have a right to accurate, truthful and transparent information at regular intervals.

 

If that update is "steady as she goes, no real update - just checking in so you all know I'm not dead or the project is in crisis" then that's what's required.

 

Information blackouts help no one, not the contractor or customer.

 

Someone said above, and rightly so it's just a toy train at the end of the day. However real people had handed over real money, so it's not just a toy train, it's hard cash that people have saved or made economies for to enable them to place an order - they deserve morally updates and if required hard truths that the N Gauge version many we'll be dead.

 

Some may recall DJ proposed a rival Class 390 in N Gauge, before Revolution took the lead with their own project.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Great Western

[JSpencer]

I think the OO Class 92 is a very good idea, and hope it'll progress and deliver. However I doubt the N Class 92 is viable as there is a competing project which is from a proven, award wining supplier.

I've been burnt by the OO King project, I had three on order but now I'm left wondering will we ever see one.

The competitor (behind the scenes) Rapido took some time to get the APT-E and Pendelino out, this from their very own factory. They realised that and opened a second factory. The single has moved along apace, and they just proved with their 92 that they really are now Rapido not just in name.

 

The King serves as a good lesson in duplication, Hornby announced theirs second but were well advanced. With their greater resources there was never any doubt it would get to market. Problem was that a big part of the market was locked up waiting for the Hattons/DJM meaning Hornby found they did not move as fast either and then got discounted. This in turn doubtless absorbed part of the Hattons order book which no longer made it viable for Hattons. The market simply could not support two Kings and both parties lost out in part.

 

This was Hattons decision to stop though not DJMs who took back the design work with hope that maybe, someday, there might be a right time to try again. Basically we all know that this may never appear. I dropped my order and went for a reduced Hornby.

It was also Hattons decision to delay development after say a year and focus on the 14xx instead where there was no rival and healthy order book.

 

The lesson is clear, there are no winners in duplication only losers (except maybe A4s).

Edited June 9, 2017 by JSpencer

[njee20]

Some may recall DJ proposed a rival Class 390 in N Gauge, before Revolution took the lead with their own project.

I could be wrong, but I think it was more that Revolution partnered with DJM to deliver the Pendo before switching to Rapido. I don't think there were ever two models announced to be fair.

[Great Western]

I think you are correct, however I seem to recall (someone correct if I'm wrong, I may well be) that DJ did dip the toe to see if a their own 390 was viable.

[Great Western]

DJ has been online, and would assume checked this thread as recently as 1701 today.

Why not counter these wild claims and offer reassurance and assurance ?

 

We are crying out for those two basic things, assurance and reassurance inspires confidence.

[DJM Dave]

Hi everyone,

 

Home today to , let me say, interesting comments, some accurate, some not so accurate and some quite upsetting.

Almost like some have been making hay while I've been away (rhyming skills not improved you see. Lol)

 

I will answer all tomorrow. Too much to say on a groggy mind, so please check the forum tomorrow for..........well, quite a bit really.

[Roy Langridge]

Whilst I am not suggesting that DJ is not without fault, and I certainly do believe his communications could improve significantly, some people could also take the time to read what he has posted and not keep asking the same questions over and over (which does just waste his time and possibly lead to some of the issues we have). For example, some models DJ has clearly stated will not be progressed until after other models are completed, yet still we regularly get the "why is there no progress on X, will Y ever appear...".

 

As for the move to go to the mainstream retailers with the 92s, it seems somewhat short-sighted for some people to object to this if the alternative is that the project fails and they, and others, lose their money invested.

 

If we look at the class 71s, nobody objected that I recall when, in addition to the crowdfunded models, special editions were also announced by retailers. I am unclear what the difference is here other than price which DJ has indicated he is not happy about and this may be out of his control.

​Roy

Edited June 9, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[DJM Dave]

Oh and while I'm on, the pendolino was a DJM project, I then got Mike and Ben on board to push the project along, we shook hands, started to advertise the project (at RMWlive at Coventry was the first flyers) and now it's a Rapido project.

[DJM Dave]

Oh and while I'm on again 2. I'm upset at the suggestions that people will lose their deposit.

 

Let me assure you all, monies paid for deposit are held in trust, until needed. If any project I've asked for a deposit for fails, as some would have you think will happen, ALL, repeat, ALL monies paid will be returned immediately, if not even sooner.

 

And yes, Hattons have been notified of the higher RRP price for the 92's and in all honesty I'm not sure why they haven't changed their online prices, as I got acknowledgment from Dave Martin that they received them in time to alter prices in their advertising proofs.

 

As it goes, I can't stop them selling the 92's for any price they want, even as a loss leader if so desired. That's a free market.

 

More tomorrow unless I'm fit to burst tonight with more reposts.

 

Dave

[Damo666]

I have a huge deal of sympathy for Dave considering that he’s away for 10 days (work / holiday, it doesn’t matter) and this thread has been running away with several concerns slowly becoming more urgent and severe, all without Dave being around to calm the situation.

 

Saying that, I understand the main concerns: (1) More information on what’s happening, (2) keeping to self-made promises (or just not making them in the first place, which ironically could end up negating (1), and (3) the advantages of being a crowdfunder investor and looking to have an advantage over the mainstream purchasers via the retail shops.

 

Being a partner in my own business, in the construction industry, I understand how long ‘development’ projects take and it can be a long time before a significant landmark is reached, especially in the early design stages. And if 3^rd parties totally outside of your control conspire to cause delay, it is not only unfortunate and regrettable, but should never be embarrassing.

 

For this reason, I’m not one of those demanding regular updates, mainly for the above and also because Dave may not be available to make these regular updates, eg: if he’s on holidays or visiting factories on the day the update is due. However I do believe there should be some form of communications, even if nothing substantial has progressed, after all, we are his investors on this.

 

My only concern is for the future of the crowdfunding initiatives after this one if there is no benefit in being an up-front paying investor. The Hatton’s price is the one that causes me concern, otherwise I just might as well not bother investing and wait, saving my money until the model hits the shops. So for future investors (and I hope that includes me) on future DJM models, I hope he gets the retail pricing sorted.

 

Otherwise, updates yes, but not at fixed dates, as this can be a rod for your own back.

 

I see that since I started to compose this message that Dave has returned. Good to see you.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Damo666

[shunny]

There have been numerous comments re benefits of crowdfunding via just buying direct from Hattons but I feel the main benefit has been the production of this model. Dave could have taken the risk and produced it himself when he has the free cash flow to allow it. Then hoped he picks the right liveries and quantities and then hoped he sells enough to shops to get a return and not have to Discount remaining stock.

If the above had been viable he would have done this and added it to his range and we would probably be moaning its still not progressing as Dave has multiple models in development.

 

We as a group have allowed Dave to gauge demand, progress the model through our financial commitment and if he has used the sales retailers to keep the project on track then I still get a great model of a class 92 and quicker than my Class 90 from Bachmann which it will probably beat! The other option could have been cancel project return money and we are left hoping someone else feels like producing one.

 

 I am even more excited for my Sleeper 92 now that they are parking the loco between platform 16 and 17 at Waverly and I get to see it every night on my way home!

[Budgie]

Earlier today some people mentioned duplication and how bad it is for both parties. With that in mind, I would like to see a manufacturer make a model that nobody else seems to want to make, so there will be no chance of duplication. I am, of course, talking about the Electrostar.

[Roy Langridge]

Earlier today some people mentioned duplication and how bad it is for both parties. With that in mind, I would like to see a manufacturer make a model that nobody else seems to want to make, so there will be no chance of duplication. I am, of course, talking about the Electrostar.

Now you have done it - three company will announce it at once now.

 

Roy

[steve1023]

Duplicate N gauge class 92. Absolute madness. No vested interest in either model. Just an outsider looking in.

[njee20]

Duplicate N gauge class 92. Absolute madness. No vested interest in either model. Just an outsider looking in.

The problem being that both were developed significantly in private, only to be announced very close together. Both have proven viable, so clearly not an issue, the market was able to sustain both.

[bensanchez43310]

I think we should remember that we are getting exclusive livery combinations that wont be repeated by Dave, and that he's a one man company, and he cant juggle the world in one hand. Cant wait for these 92's though, they will look the part on my upcoming layout. I'm rather surprised Hornby haven't made a TTS 92 yet if I'm honest?

 

Ben

[srihaggis]

Regardless of weather retailers now have their fingers in class 92 pies and are able to sell for 20p less (or whatever price), at the end of the day does it matter?

The way I see it, the retailers are crowd funders too in a sense. Without them it looked like our crowdfunding price would either increase or the project possibly be canned - I know which i'd sooner see happen. Least this way, the special liveries that we all signed up for are safeguarded to crowdfund only, which isn't an option with another manufacturer with a similar business model who I placed a sizeable order with, only to discover retailers were stocking them after deadline had passed, but same liveries!

 

Looking forward to seeing it develop, it can take as long as needed imho.

[Damo666]

The way I see it, the retailers are crowd funders too in a sense.

Eh, how are the retailers crowdfunders too, have they invested like me and others, ie: put money into the scheme up front, or have they just confirmed that they will stock the product?

[dpgibbons]

Regardless of weather retailers now have their fingers in class 92 pies and are able to sell for 20p less (or whatever price), at the end of the day does it matter?

 

 

Yes. It matters quite a lot. Unless the retailers are paying in advance they are not contributing towards the project funding, so DJM and the crowdfunders will bear more risk. And if they then undercut the original offer it diminishes the incentive for crowdfunders and undermines the prospects for future projects.   

[Damo666]

Least this way, the special liveries that we all signed up for are safeguarded to crowdfund only,......

DJM has the DB Schenker in Red as a crownfunder model.

Hattons are offering a DB Schenker in Red too.

Apart from a number on the side being different, how is this a special livery?

 

If I knew Hattons would be selling the same model with sound cheaper than Dave then I would have waited. I don't need a certificate, I want a loco to use on my layout.

The logical conclusion to this is that if others (not all, but just some) take the same view as me, then the whole crowdfunder initiative may not have gotten off the ground in the first place.

Then there would be no DJM Class 92.

 

SO: To protect the principles of the Crowdfunding initiative, now and for the next model, there has to be (in my eyes at least, your view may differ) a benefit to us early investors.

For some that may be a restricted livery.

For others it may be the certificate

But for me it has to be the lower price.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Damo666

[jjb1970]

I'm not involved in this, but speaking as an observer I do think that if retailers are going to sell crowdfunded models at a similar price to what crowdfunders pay then it does beg the question of why you would crowdfund. Hattons can sell their stock at whatever price they like so I do not blame Dave for anything here but if crowdfunders are carrying the risk for the project and paying months in advance on trust then there should be something in it for them. The certificate and numbers will mean little to many and in a world awashwith limited and special release models are unlikely to make much difference to future value for those who see this as an investment.

I'd reiterate that I do not think Dave is doing anything wrong here, and think some of the implicit accusations in this thread are unjustified and grossly unfair. To me this has nothing to do with Dave, or Revolution or any other crowdfunded efforts, it has nothing to do with what I think of people and everything to do with what I think about the concept.

Crowdfunding is presented as an investment, but what is the investment? If crowdfunders had ownership of the tooling then yes it could be an investment. What it is is an alternative payment system which involves paying development costs up front, underwriting project risk and managing cash flow. You get a model (or models)at the end, not shares, tooling or an income stream. The only reason the arrangement makes any sense is if the price you pay undercuts the retail price by enough to make advance payment etc worthwhile.

Having said all that I also think that people are free to crowdfund and do a lot of other things that don't interest me, we live in a free country. If crowdfunding works for some then it's not my place to object, there is a fundamental difference between not getting involved in something because I don't like it and objecting to others doing it. Put bluntly, what others do with their money and their opinions is none of my business, no more than it is nobody else's business what I think or how I spend my money (wife excepted.....). What I would say however is to keep business and friendship separate. You're not buying friendship, not buying a slave, not buying the right to know everthing that Dave does. The obligation on both parties is to honour the terms of the crowdfunding agreement, no more, no less. As long as those terms are honoured then both parties will fulfil the agreement.

I really think some of the comments I see are out of order. I've offered my opinions on crowdfunding to put this into context. I do not see that Dave has done anything wrong here, the problem is what people believe they are getting out of crowdfunding and perhaps an unhealthy personalising what should be a strictly commercial relationship.

[PaulCheffus]

Least this way, the special liveries that we all signed up for are safeguarded to crowdfund only, which isn't an option with another manufacturer with a similar business model who I placed a sizeable order with, only to discover retailers were stocking them after deadline had passed, but same liveries!

 

Hi

 

But at a much higher price and the project was already well advanced at this point.

 

It seems to me that the manufacturers can't win.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Roy Langridge]

Hi

 

But at a much higher price and the project was already well advanced at this point.

 

It seems to me that the manufacturers can't win.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

And of course there is nothing that will ever stop a retailer being a crowdfunder and selling at a higher price.

 

Roy

[Scottish-Exile]

The last few pages have allowed everyone to air an opinion - me included - on the pros/cons of crowdfunding and also some specific and personal comments relating to DJM and the Class 92 project. Good, Bad or Indifferent. We all have a personal view.

 

I think however that as pretty much all views have been expressed, we're now in danger of regurgitating (too lazy to spell check that!) old ground.

 

Dave came on last night and committed to update everyone this weekend,which is a positive step. 

 

So perhaps we should now hold fire with further comments to allow Dave to digest what's been said, and why it's being said etc and come up with his own response as to how he sees things and/or any proposals or changes he wishes to make regarding how he communicates with us all etc.

 

Let's all chill out for a bit. Me, I'm setting off now to the Merseyside Model rail show and swap meet at Hulme Hall. See you later folks

[steve1023]

The problem being that both were developed significantly in private, only to be announced very close together. Both have proven viable, so clearly not an issue, the market was able to sustain both.

Rubbish. How can you say It's viable. The Crowd funding is supposed to finance the production of the model, but Dave is having to seek out alternate methods to pass the threshold. Doesn't really sound viable to me & all the time the Revolution model continues to be developed leaving this one far behind.

 

There are similarities here with the Hattons King. Sensibly they took the decision to walk away and also sensibly Dave is trying to make the most of a bad situation and by developing a N gauge version. Why not do the same here, continue with the OO scale model and walk away from the N gauge model. Unfortunate, yes, but the market does not need 2.