Focalplane Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Very atmospheric photos, Larry. Thank you. The Ivatt 4MT is the subject of a fairly new book that I picked up at the Ian Allen Bookstore in Birmingham a year or so ago. By Ian Sixsmith, it has a lot of detail and a photo of just about every loco. I am not sure what influence Swindon had on the design as the locos were built at Horwich, then Doncaster and Darlington. 43094 was eventually sent to Swindon for testing and from this the Standard 4 moguls were developed. The earlier builds stayed with the LM® and several were based in the West Midlands. According to the book the 4MT was a replacement for the old Midland 4F 0-6-0. The double chimney was a disaster and also looked the part from an aesthetic point of view! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Very atmospheric photos, Larry. Thank you. The Ivatt 4MT is the subject of a fairly new book that I picked up at the Ian Allen Bookstore in Birmingham a year or so ago. By Ian Sixsmith, it has a lot of detail and a photo of just about every loco. I am not sure what influence Swindon had on the design as the locos were built at Horwich, then Doncaster and Darlington. 43094 was eventually sent to Swindon for testing and from this the Standard 4 moguls were developed. The earlier builds stayed with the LM® and several were based in the West Midlands. According to the book the 4MT was a replacement for the old Midland 4F 0-6-0. The double chimney was a disaster and also looked the part from an aesthetic point of view! Paul I was thinking more of the Swindon thinking that Stanier took to the LMS and bequeathed to his successors. The Ivatt Class 4 could be said to be the great grandchild of the GWR 43XX 2-6-0 and would look like a machine of dubious parentage to Mr. Churchward... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2017 I was thinking more of the Swindon thinking that Stanier took to the LMS and bequeathed to his successors. The Ivatt Class 4 could be said to be the great grandchild of the GWR 43XX 2-6-0 and would look like a machine of dubious parentage to Mr. Churchward... Basically a late 1940s version of the Churchward ideas I have always thought. Incidentally the one that went to Swindon was sent there in order for Sam Ell to sort out the draughting for the class - and he did without sending it into traffic with a stovepipe chimney. They were certainly called 'Mucky Ducks' by spotters back in the old days Larry, I first became acquainted with the term from a northern based spotting pal of mine around 1960/61. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2017 I just noticed the change in the thread title. Mojo gone walkabout? Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Holt Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 They were certainly called 'Mucky Ducks' by spotters back in the old days Larry, I first became acquainted with the term from a northern based spotting pal of mine around 1960/61. We knew them as "Flying Pigs" when i was spotting round Manchester in the 50/60's. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Sorry to see you're giving up 7mm, Larry. I've followed your 4mm threads and was looking forward to seeing you set those standards in 7mm. Anything we can do to change your mind? The better weather's coming - so you can get back in the shed again!! Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Larry ........ please don't ..... noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!! Craig. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Hi Larry, I to have lost some 7mm Mojo as well. I hope you find your 4mm Mojo is as good as it was before, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. All the best with whatever you decide to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Why ?? No Just this project or 7mm altogether? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Thanks for the kind comments. I have spent quite a lot of time recently at Carrog, photographing and measuring the buildings and infrastructure or just watching and photographing the trains. I came to the conclusion that this would be the ideal station for me to model. However it has become increasingly apparent during planning for this layout that there is insufficient space available in the shed to allow for a reproduction of Carrog to my satisfaction. I have therefore reluctantly decided that Carrog will have to be built in 4mm scale instead of 7mm scale. I shall certainly miss the "mass" and additional detail possible in O scale, and will reluctantly have to consider disposing of my O scale items. It may be considered somewhat ironic that whereas I relished the change to 7mm scale and looked for a suitable station to model, having found that station I now consider it best to be done in 4mm scale ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Carrog's just a loop on a single track curve isn't it? Or was there more to it in the past? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 It seems all things converge on 4mm being the best overall scale - some go smaller only to return others go bigger but in the end we come back to the imperfect but perfectly practical 4mm. Sorry you couldn't get what you desired so much in 7mm but at least in 4mm you are better positioned for all year round modelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Carrog's just a loop on a single track curve isn't it? Or was there more to it in the past? A pair of sidings lay behind the signal box serving an end loading bank and cattle dock. The goods shed, as such, was a corrugated building on the platform (still there today). In 4mm, I can model the yard correctly and create a better sense of open country. Well that's the plan haha. The yard will handle coal, lamp oil, cattle dock and general merchandise. The real Carrog had a Camping coach in the yard for around eleven years after World War II (which I will not have), so some of the goods might have been concentrated at Corwen by this period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted March 9, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2017 I look forward to developments in this latest project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Larry A sad day for 7mm in my opinion. I have kept all my 4mm stuff in storage for the time being and Shipston on Stour could easily be finished off. But as I have nowhere to set it up it will stay in store. I am really enjoying the slow but steady progress on the Midlander and other projects in 7mm and have enjoyed our conversation on line about all manner of things. I will have to follow your exploits on the new 4mm thread - can you let us know where to find you, will it be your workbench? Good luck with Carrog! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted March 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2017 Get a longer shed.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandbridgejct Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 If back to 4mm, why not back to Oswestry? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Hi Larry, Know exactly what your going through on this scale dilemma and as you know I have given up on one much cherished wanted too layout only recently and I've got a big shed ..... so 7mm would seem to be an easy option or so I thought but having laid out a proposed scheme which would have been fun ....... but something keeps stopping me. With regard to Carrog station when you were talking to Martin who lives in the station building did he mention that there was a slate siding just up the line towards Corwen which served Penarth slate quarry via an incline. Not sure when the quarry shut but there used to be a photo of the siding in the station building. The cottage that I live in used to be a drovers dwelling and I have been told that the donkey's that worked the quarry in the early years were stabled here and the lane which drops down the hill behind the cottage is called 'donkey lane' ... I only mention this as it would give you another set of wagons to shunt up the line towards Corwen. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Larry A sad day for 7mm in my opinion. I have kept all my 4mm stuff in storage for the time being and Shipston on Stour could easily be finished off. But as I have nowhere to set it up it will stay in store. I am really enjoying the slow but steady progress on the Midlander and other projects in 7mm and have enjoyed our conversation on line about all manner of things. I will have to follow your exploits on the new 4mm thread - can you let us know where to find you, will it be your workbench? Good luck with Carrog! Paul I stayed away from starting a thread for Carrog because it was apparent some months ago that things were just not working out as I'd hoped. However, a Carrog in 4mm thread will allow me a clean start. Thank you for your PM. I'm just off for a meal and will get back to you soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 If you must leave 7mm, Larry, Carrog is a decent station to model. It brings back happy memories: I drove DMUs at Llangollen for 13 years before I retired from it 3 years ago. We usually had something like a 20 minute turn-round at Carrog on most turns (this was before the Corwen extension opened). It used to be lovely on a summer's day - in the early years we were often disturbed by low-flying aircraft as we sat out in the sunshine but not in later years - but a bit miserable in the cold and rain. But then the cafe and waiting room (and ticket office) were always warm and welcoming (as were the staff!!). Will you model the flickers from the coal fires that were always burning? Gismorail - wasn't there also a slate siding at Glyndyfrwdwy? On the site of the current playground? This could also provide traffic through Carrog from the other direction. Rod Edit: to correct (hopefully!!) spelling of Glyn in full. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 If you must leave 7mm, Larry, Carrog is a decent station to model. It brings back happy memories: I drove DMUs at Llangollen for 13 years before I retired from it 3 years ago. We usually had something like a 20 minute turn-round at Carrog on most turns (this was before the Corwen extension opened). It used to be lovely on a summer's day - in the early years we were often disturbed by low-flying aircraft as we sat out in the sunshine but not in later years - but a bit miserable in the cold and rain. But then the cafe and waiting room (and ticket office) were always warm and welcoming (as were the staff!!). Will you model the flickers from the coal fires that were always burning? I used to keep in touch with one of the diesel loco owners...He had two Class 25's and the Peak. He may also have had 47449. I filmed from the cab of the '47 from Carrog to Glyndyfrdwy in the mid 1990s. It will be useful for looking at the turnouts at Carrog! But you are right, Carrog is a lovely station and so well restored. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Hi Larry, Know exactly what your going through on this scale dilemma and as you know I have given up on one much cherished wanted too layout only recently and I've got a big shed ..... so 7mm would seem to be an easy option or so I thought but having laid out a proposed scheme which would have been fun ....... but something keeps stopping me. With regard to Carrog station when you were talking to Martin who lives in the station building did he mention that there was a slate siding just up the line towards Corwen which served Penarth slate quarry via an incline. Not sure when the quarry shut but there used to be a photo of the siding in the station building. The cottage that I live in used to be a drovers dwelling and I have been told that the donkey's that worked the quarry in the early years were stabled here and the lane which drops down the hill behind the cottage is called 'donkey lane' ... I only mention this as it would give you another set of wagons to shunt up the line towards Corwen. Martin didnt mention the slate siding but i know about it from the various publications that I acquired after abandoning Oswestry, which incidentally i will not be returning to as it needs a great deal of room to do it justice. It did occur to me that Quarry would make a good through traffic at Carrog in place of the Crosfield Chemical Tanks that I ran on previous layouts. You are very fortunate living where you do and if we ever win the lottery, expect a new neighbor! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Martin didnt mention the slate siding but i know about it from the various publications that I acquired after abandoning Oswestry, which incidentally i will not be returning to as it needs a great deal of room to do it justice. It did occur to me that Quarry would make a good through traffic at Carrog in place of the Crosfield Chemical Tanks that I ran on previous layouts. You are very fortunate living where you do and if we ever win the lottery, expect a new neighbor! Last time I was up there Larry, all he had was a few Sheep for neighbours, but like you, a Lottery win, and I'd buying up some nice little cottage overlooking the Line as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Last time I was up there Larry, all he had was a few Sheep for neighbours, but like you, a Lottery win, and I'd buying up some nice little cottage overlooking the Line as well. What a wonderful life......Waking up in high summer to the sound of a whistle echoing down the valley, downing the Cornies and then strolling off to the station with a rose in the buttonhole to await the train to Llangollen. Living the dream! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 What a wonderful life......Waking up in high summer to the sound of a whistle echoing down the valley, downing the Cornies and then strolling off to the station with a rose in the buttonhole to await the train to Llangollen. Living the dream! Yes Larry, all very good, but I wouldn't like to WALK back up that hill to Martins place, even my Car complained, hahahah Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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