Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[mikesndbs]

Hello Mike

 

Stop and ask yourself what else can I buy for £150 (or whatever the exact price).

 

I still say cheap at the price.

 

 

If we were talking £500 a throw we might be hoping for better.

 

I could go on at great length about some of the issues I have had with current Hornby products.  However the bottom line is that I don't have to buy them - and the more rubbish items that drop through the letter box the fewer that I will be buying in the future.

 

Ray

 

We don't agree my friend not at all.

 

Hornby and others are not selling these as a charitable affair, they are making huge profits off them, enough to justify development costs, raw materials, work forces shipping, taxes, retailer etc.

All taking a cut.

I am afraid that £200 is a very sizable sum to find for a one off hobby expenditure, When you consider Hornby buy the motors for these things at less than £1 each you may come to see just how big a profit is being made.

 

The idea that I want my new Ford car to be perfect and work as advertised and expected is unrealistic because I could have purchased a Rolls Royce that would have been better but at a vastly higher cost does not stack up

 

Anyway, happy new year and modeling 

[Colin_McLeod]

If I buy a second hand loco on e bay for, say, £40 then I will sort out any little problems with it. If I pay £200 for the same locomotive brand new I expect it to work right away (allowing for running in), not need any broken bits repaired and not need repairs nor returning to supplier for any reason.

 

The fact that I have modelling skills is irrelevant.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Colin_McLeod

[cctransuk]

If I buy a second hand loco on e bay for, say, £40 then I will sort out any little problems with it. If I pay £200 for the same locomotive brand new I expect it to work right away (allowing for running in), not need any broken bits repaired and not need repairs nor returning to supplier for any reason.

 

The fact that I have modelling skills is irrelevant.

 

All this aggro about toy trains !!

 

It's really quite simple - if the price is too high - don't buy.

 

If the quality isn't up to your standards - don't buy.

 

If you buy a dud - send it back and avoid that manufacturer in the future.

 

What the complainers are looking for is high quality, lowish prices and a perfect product every time - even after it's been subject to half the world's postal / courier operatives.

 

It IS disappointing when a purchase is less than perfect in any way - but life's like that; you pays yer money and you takes yer choice!!

 

Complaining here won't change that.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Legend]

With respect John we basically agree except for High Prices, and I think £179-£200 is high, we expect perfect product, not low prices !

[MikeParkin65]

Lets not forget the majority of locos that do run fine from the word go.

 

My Duchess has been perfect from the beginning and still runs faultlesly although I would have been happy to forgive it any small cosmetic issues like missing handrails for such a superb model at a price that is impossible to match with a kit.

 

I sometimes think we are unrealistic in our expectations looking for finer and more accurate models at a price cheaper than the kits that were the only alternatives and thats before we factor in the time and skills required to build and paint the latter.

 

I would suggest that each and every loco could easily be checked and tested and after shipping rechecked but it would likely be double the price.

 

I agree that the valve gear issue is a concern and having had two Black 5s with the same problem Hornby do need to address this but small parts that are easily repaired or replaced..we are all supposed to be modellers aren't we?!..I suggest we accept this as the price you pay for a great value for money model that has been shipped half way round the world. 

 

 

If Hornby are serious about staying in business they need to be on top of ensuring 99% of product arrives in perfect condition with the customer and that there is clear and rapid route of redress where it doesn’t. Dealers checking loco’s isn’t going to double the price - it’s less than a minutes work at most and both my local dealers do that as a matter of course. They do this because they want repeat custom and because they don’t want the hassle of returns. Hornby should be operating the same way.

 

I suspect that modellers who have the time and skill to repair faulty new products are very much in the minority and having such skills shouldn’t be an expectation of any manufacturer. It is disingenuous to suggest purchasers not having the skills or time or confidence to tweak new products on Hornbys behalf are in any way lessor than those of us who can.

 

Bottom line is we need purchasers at all levels of ability to sustain this hobby and that requires manufacturers to ensure that the vast majority of their product is delivered to the customer in complete condition and reliable working order.

[robmcg]

This is the sort of post that really exasperates me . Sorry Vital Spark, we normally agree on most things but your initial statement that things to not work fine from the word go really has tripped all my switches . This is a £200 model. It should! The fact that many modellers tweek and put up with things really does the overall modelling community no good at all. It makes Hornby complacent. The thing is that sending it back from the U.K. is a hassle, sending it back from New Zealand has got to be worse. So Hornby get away with it. I’m sitting watching telly seeing a Curry’s advert for a washing machine at £160. If faulty do we just say “ ah well things don’t always work from the word go “ and fix it ourselves ? No because you expect it to work and it probably will . Why should a Hornby model railway loco be any different?

 

Thankyou. I fully agree.

 

I might be able to make handrails and such things are a challenge for me, I have only one working hand, the other is a numb club, although it can grip a wheelchair rim. I have successfully done similar in the past... a section of a staple inserted in a Black 5 smokebox 1965-7 style to replace a lamp bracket which was forgotten during assembly.

 

Quite a challenge just unboxing a Hornby engine without damaging it, but I have many techniques involving a tray, one hand, soft surfaces, gentle left hand work and so on.  To bend suitable brass wire over a screwdriver's flat end would probably allows handrails to be made, but it isn't a test of my ingenuity here, it is simply that is less of a worry than driving to a mall, queuing up at a post office with painstakingly packaged and addressed export item, doing the paperwork, paying about £15 and eventually receiving a refund with or without that being re-imbursed, with foreign exchange costs as well...  End result a colossal waste of time.

 

It is a challenge to make these models work and they are quite amazing when in good order, but I'll bet many faulty new models are never exchanged or returned because it is simply too much trouble. 

 

edit; I mean, what a fine new model...!  who would want to send this back around the world for replacement or refund, when the replacement might be just as bad or worse, and a refund ends up making the whole thing an unpleasant time-consuming waste?

 

 

I should add that my last 4 Duchess models, all the de-streamlined type, have been fine.  

 

I am SO tempted to try to make handrails but then Hornby won't know...

 

Happy new year to all.

Edited January 1, 2019 by robmcg

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

What the complainers are looking for is high quality, lowish prices and a perfect product every time - even after it's been subject to half the world's postal / courier operatives.

 

It IS disappointing when a purchase is less than perfect in any way - but life's like that; you pays yer money and you takes yer choice!!

 

Complaining here won't change that.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Isn't that what we all want? And what we are entitled to. By law.

 

If I buy an electrical item from Tesco then I expect it to work perfectly whether it's a £10 kettle or £500 computer. It's still money.

 

Social media is very good for complaining about things. Have you seen the amount of people who get refunds after they've complained about something on Facebook or Twitter? Just look at people who post photographs of things like dirty hotel rooms and notice how quickly they get a refund and an apology.

 

I really do think that the British have an aversion to complaining. Me? I'm at the front of the queue. I've worked in retail for quite a few years. I know my rights. Also never been refused a replacement or refund.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited January 1, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[mikesndbs]

OK, anyway, can I just point out I posted not to complain but to seek guidance on how I can fix the encountered issues.

 

Love the model and want to keep it, no stock at the shop or Hornby so looks like I'll be working on her, so if anyone can guide me please?

[Colin_McLeod]

All this aggro about toy trains !!

 

It's really quite simple - if the price is too high - don't buy.

 

If the quality isn't up to your standards - don't buy.

 

If you buy a dud - send it back and avoid that manufacturer in the future.

 

What the complainers are looking for is high quality, lowish prices and a perfect product every time - even after it's been subject to half the world's postal / courier operatives.

 

It IS disappointing when a purchase is less than perfect in any way - but life's like that; you pays yer money and you takes yer choice!!

 

Complaining here won't change that.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

1) There is no aggro in my post that you quoted.

 

2) My post is about model trains not toy trains. (material for a separate thread)

 

3) Happy New Year John.

[vitalspark]

​The great thing about this forum is hearing other opinions and after reading through the posts yes I agree Hornby do need to up their game.

 

I was looking at this from a personal viewpoint and comparing with a kit and the hours and costs involved and on the basis of that if its 95% right then you're ahead so buy it but of course as pointed out Hornby are a business and cost this to make profit and set the retail accordingly so regardless of kit comparisons its the right price and should as pointed out be 100%.

 

Never considered the analogy with white goods costing £180 and failing and yes I would be right back at the store.

 

I need to read a few posts in future before adding my thoughts.

 

Cheers all

 

Dave. 

[robmcg]

Thanks vitalspark I think we are all guilty at times, I certainly often write without reading much beforehand, and I agree it's a good forum.

 

I have decided to keep my blue Coronation and attempt the 'minor' repair to the front, making handrails from wire.

 

In the meantime I hope you and others will not be offended by my editing of the original photo of LMS 6221 which I posted several messages back, having given it some kinder contrast and detail effects with PSP6 editing, as well as the larger front wheels as supplied in the pack (although just edited on by me so far)

 

What nice model when given kind photography, and a pity that Hornby sell stuff with faults at times....  spoilt but for a pennyworth of tar..

 

I certainly like this model.

 

 

Please note photo is edited, will remove if requested.

 

edit,  I have inspected the holes where the top wire handrails fit and they look like blind holes to see, see pic below...  and the top lamp bracket is strangely off-centre,  will I need to drill the holes  ?  any opinions welceme.

 

 

below, another pic of the model 'out of the box' as it were. 

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by robmcg

[ikks]

You can't exactly blame Hornby for that though. The Midland Compound in a set was Bachmann.

 

 

 

Sorry,Jason,I think you may have misunderstood my point (no offence intended), I am aware the loco was Bachmann, I was alluding to some of the issues we are experiencing generally, with recent RTR offerings from all suppliers, the fact is,that most seem to be fine

but judging by the comments on here, too many are not. I know this is a Hornby thread but I didn't think it was too out of place to make a general comment and also, relate to a personal experience..

 

Rgds............Mike

[Big James]

I went through a stage about 5 years ago where I bought every new purchase with trepidation on whether it will work or not. I’ve never had a schools class that’s run fine out of the box. I’ve got 3 and I’ve had to fix them all in someway to make then at least useable from the world go.

 

Big James

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Two elephants in the room.  

 

Firstly it is retailers who are model producer's customers. They are the people who know what the 'returned faulty' rate is.

 

Secondly, those that purchase the product from the retailers are not a homogenous group. I suspect that we 'take it out of the box and run it' crowd are a minority. So what the retailers get 'returned faulty' is quite likely only a sampling, because a collector's purchase mint in box is 'perfect' (provided the box exterior is perfect).

 

It is a very different situation from the sale of white goods, where all but a miniscule fraction will be connected up and working within a week of leaving the retailer's premises; and said retailer getting their ear bent about any DOA and malfunction problems probably within a week of sale.

 

I don't have an answer to the problem, all my experience derives from business similer to the white goods scenario, where one knew quickly and often LOUDLY! if the product was not functioning perfectly within days or even hours of delivery/installation.

[Steamport Southport]

If there is a problem then you use the three Rs.

 

Repair.

Replacement.

Refund.

 

 

Faulty goods: Buying in store vs buying online

Everything you buy must conform to the Consumer Rights Act, which says all goods and services must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.

If your goods don’t conform to this, then they are classed as a faulty good and can be returned for a refund, repair or replacement depending on the length of time you’ve owned it for.

This statutory right applies regardless of whether you purchased the goods online or in store.

If you have a product which you think is faulty, claim a refund, repair or replacement by starting a faulty goods claim.

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-are-my-statutory-rights-and-when-do-they-apply

 

If more people complain properly (politely) when there is a problem then maybe we would be seeing fewer problems.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[mikesndbs]

I is fed up

 

[Legend]

I is fed up

 

https://youtu.be/asygy_gRMXc

I’d say you’ve persevered with it. I think I’d be inclined to hold onto it if you think it’s acceptable . Why? Well you already rejected several in the shop , chances are if you get another one it might be the same or worse

[robmcg]

I is fed up

 

 

I agree with Legend for the same reason he gave.

 

Very few Hornby models have correctly operating valve gear from new. The piston rod slidebar thing looks pretty well ok to my eyes.

 

Thanks for the video.

 

I have a similar dilemma, return my handrail-less model or try to repair it, the retailer has contacted me and is happy to give full refund + international post cost.  Retailer said Hornby will then offer it back to them at a much below wholesale price and it can be sold at auction as damaged goods, first I've heard of Hornby doing that officially.

 

edited to add 'few' to 'very few Hornby models, my apologies.

Edited January 2, 2019 by robmcg

[mckinneyc]

I've not commented because luckily all my Hornby locomotives have been ok so far, however it seems to me they urgently need to review the quality control checks they have in place at their factories.

[MikeParkin65]

I is fed up

 

https://YouTube.be/asygy_gRMXc

It’s a pain but I’d reject that on on the grounds the cross head is still jumping and that wobbling rear driver. My basis for rejecting it would be the knowledge that other people have paid the same money as you and have perfect running examples. My second 46256 from the first batch was like chalk and cheese to the first one which had a broken body lug and a wobbly rear driver.

 

This is £180 of new loco - you have earnt and deserve a good one.

[robmcg]

It’s a pain but I’d reject that on on the grounds the cross head is still jumping and that wobbling rear driver. My basis for rejecting it would be the knowledge that other people have paid the same money as you and have perfect running examples. My second 46256 from the first batch was like chalk and cheese to the first one which had a broken body lug and a wobbly rear driver.

 

This is £180 of new loco - you have earnt and deserve a good one.

 

I gave an agree to that because I had forgotten the wobbly driver when agreeing to Legend's post.

 

I have bought I think 8 new Duchesses now and none had wobbly driver that I noticed, one had a loose crosshead and it fell from the slidebars, and I bent them together but it wasn't quite right so I got a refund from Rails, there were no more for sale back then. The rest have all been fine, but variable in motor / mechanical audible whirring. The one I returned was the sweetest runner of all...!

In case anyone is curious, the eight are or were;

Atholl 6231 LMS red,

SWS 46256 BR red X 2  both sold

46229 Hamilton gloss finish BR red NRM

46229 Hamilton LMS/BR black Rails sold

46235 Birmingham BR green

Edinburgh 6241 LMS black

46225 BR blue Gloucester

another 46256 when they were almost impossible to find, 2  weeks later they were re-released. 

 

and 6221  several have had minor parts loose, fall plate on one,  6221 missing front handrails.

 

All very sweet but it really is ok to return if they aren't fit for purpose, our choice as consumers.

Edited January 3, 2019 by robmcg

[Jol Wilkinson]

If a loco RTR doesn't run "properly" then it can be argued it isn't fit for purpose and should be replaced or the cost refunded. "As described" might be a bit more of a minefield as how it is advertised/described could be different to what the consumer expects.

 

Hornby's quality issues may arise from the third party manufacturer failing to achieve the quality standards the contract calls for but that it not being identified when the product arrives in the UK. I expect that the design and manufacturing process requires that pre-production models are signed off and when production is underway the models are packed and shipped for UK distribution. Unless Hornby unbox and inspect samples on a regular basis it is possible that any deterioration in quality or specification may not be adequately or quickly identified.

 

While there is no excuse for this lack of quality compliance checking it would add to cost and is a possible by product of outsourcing to the Far East to keep prices low (which has been a very major factor in the RTR market for many years). Assertions elsewhere in this thread that Hornby are making a lot of money from this model should be reviewed in the light of their financial performance and that the HMRC takes a good share, while retailers want/need a large margin to enable them to reduce prices to comply with the consumers demand for a discount. Hornby's unit profit may not be as great as some imagine.

[adb968008]

Hornby's unit profit may not be as great as some imagine.

I’d wager it has more to do with volume produced, rather than market price per unit.

In this example, the streamlined coronation, suggestion is the bottom end is reused from the previous release, so the design cost may be marginally lower than an entirely new loco.

 

Much of Hornbys range has “tweak” potential built in.. loads of it. In lean times it makes sense to cash some of this in, examples I can see are.. Star from a Hall, Manor from the Grange, Original Scot from the Rebuilt, Streamline P2 from Original, but even odd ball potential like a Caprotti 5 from the Black 5. In many cases tenders too can be reused, as we saw with the 8f and upgraded Fowler tender.

 

The main thing is, if the market price is x, and let’s assume some margins for this example, say trade is .3x and cost is 0.2x with tooling amortisation at 0.2x, that leaves 0.3x =y for overheads, tax and profit. However at some point once amortisation is fully recovered the profit exponentially increases on further unit runs to say 0.6x.

 

My guess is this occasionally manifests itself when selected releases are disproportionately lower than previous, such as the £35 club terriers and the £40 14xx a few years back.

 

In my mind focusing on the y, is better achieved with wide travelling, long living, colourful, mass preserved steam locos, than obscure, regional, low numbered bespoke little black 0-6-0’s.

Edited January 3, 2019 by adb968008

[Paul_sterling]

I’d wager it has more to do with volume produced, rather than market price per unit.

In this example, the streamlined coronation, suggestion is the bottom end is reused from the previous release, so the design cost may be marginally lower than an entirely new loco.

 

Much of Hornbys range has “tweak” potential built in.. loads of it. In lean times it makes sense to cash some of this in, examples I can see are.. Star from a Hall, Manor from the Grange, Original Scot from the Rebuilt, Streamline P2 from Original, but even odd ball potential like a Caprotti 5 from the Black 5. In many cases tenders too can be reused, as we saw with the 8f and upgraded Fowler tender.

 

The main thing is, if the market price is x, and let’s assume some margins for this example, say trade is .3x and cost is 0.2x with tooling amortisation at 0.2x, that leaves 0.3x =y for overheads, tax and profit. However at some point once amortisation is fully recovered the profit exponentially increases on further unit runs to say 0.6x.

 

My guess is this occasionally manifests itself when selected releases are disproportionately lower than previous, such as the £35 club terriers and the £40 14xx a few years back.

 

In my mind focusing on the y, is better achieved with wide travelling, long living, colourful, mass preserved steam locos, than obscure, regional, low numbered bespoke little black 0-6-0’s.

 

I wholeheartedly agree in regards using Chassis across a number of models to reduce costs, it makes perfect sense, however i'm told that Bachmann once pointed out that the cost of developing chassis is tiny in relation to the cost of the tooling/development of the body-shell. This was in discussions relating to the use of the ROD 2-8-0 chassis on a number of other classes of Robinson loco that all shared that same wheelbase and wheel size, granted in that case, my suspicion is that stuff like the O4, Q1, O5 and other 8 coupled derivatives of the Robinson type weren't going to be in the same volume league as some of the classes you mentioned. 

 

Nevertheless, considering Hornby have done the Hall and Grange, I'm very surprised they've not gone on to do a Saint, perhaps it is round the corner....... 

 

Paul. 

[mikesndbs]

Part 3 of the saga, does she look ok running?