royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Yes, of course - I agree. Nothing inherently wrong in wearing a rucksack, but it is those who don't seem to realise what they have on their back, that it takes up more room than their usual floor space, and are inconsiderate in using it to barge their way through crowds. If you shove the rucksack to one side it tends to spin the wearer around meaning they are facing the wrong direction. Hopefully they then become aware that they are sporting a whacking great lumpy appendage on their back and learn to take a little more care in future. G. Of course you never stand right behind somebody wearing a rucksack giving them no option but to 'reverse' into you as they try to move away from the layout do you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted November 28, 2016 Administrators Share Posted November 28, 2016 Its a good job you didnt try that with me or my son because I might have been inclined to rearrange your teeth for you! What gives you the right to push people around simply just because they are wearing a rucksack? For somebody moaning on about people lacking manners and consideration you dont seem to have any yourself. When you've been whalloped by a rucksack then shoving back seems acceptable to me. However, thanks for making my point about policing behavior. It was suggested that we shouldn't just "put up with" inconsiderate behavior. Your threat of violence explains exactly why we have to accept it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwell Hall Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Warley especially on the Saturday was simply awful, and it was all down to the loutish behavior of my fellow modelers I'm afraid. I've been attending Warley for many many years now and it seems to get worse every year. The annual scrum around the Bachmann stand in search of bargains just about sums up the dog eat dog, must get to the front at any cost mentality of many. Moving the Bachman sales stand to a far distant corner of the hall only shifted the problem. Rucksacks are a constant annoyance and as a health and safety hazard I for one can't see why they aren't prohibited. But it is the sheer rudeness and inconsiderate way many act who are old enough to know better that really takes the edge off visiting this great show. As an advanced ticket holder I was there for the 9.15am scramble as the doors opened. The atmosphere was worse than at many a football match, and I attend them frequently with my sons, what with the NEC staff bellowing orders at the top of their voices and strutting around issuing orders and surging of the crowd it did feel rather unsafe and threatening, not the best start to what is supposed to be an enjoyable day out. For goodness sake just try and keep a sense of perspective - it's a hobby at the end of the day, not a matter of life and death! Exactly the reason that I haven't been for years now - I can't abide the place! Shame really because there were a few things I would like to have seen this year including Betton Grange - from the photos she looked superb and is coming along a treat now. But spending a fortune to travel and to get in and then to be pushed and shoved around is not my idea of a good day out. Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Simple solution was to go to Warley on Sunday.....I had no problems viewing any layouts or stands then As its a 4 hour journey and the first train isnt until 09:25 on a Sunday that isnt really viable for some of us. <not aimed at Phill> That is also why I have a large rucksack, a fold out bag and several plastic bags full of purchases, I couldnt give two shakes of a rats arse if it gets in your way because you shouldnt be that close in the first place, the exhibition is for everyone! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Crantock questions the need for a separate thread on this and says there's not much new. That's half the problem! These issues continue to cause exhibition goers inconvenience year on year and aren't tackled properly. It's time we stopped accepting the unacceptable. Attending an exhibition is an expensive business these days and I don't see whay my day out (two in the case of Warley should be spoiled because of the inconsiderate behavior of others. I use a carrier bag for my purchasers and manage quite well without a rucksack. A carrier bag! Are you having a laugh, some of us spend a bit more than that, maybe we should be limited on what we can spend so our spending doesnt get in your way! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Of course you never stand right behind somebody wearing a rucksack giving them no option but to 'reverse' into you as they try to move away from the layout do you! Rubbish. That implies that to stand behind a person not wearing a rucksack means they won't 'reverse' in to you. Of course they can and that is also wrong. But it's also not acceptable for someone wearing one to do so either. The issue is that those wearing a rucksack need to be more considerate, more aware and not to expect everyone else to watch out for them and take special avoiding action concerning where they stand or walk. Those with the rucksack should do that and be more responsible. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 And I noticed that several people run into my rucksack while I was completely static - they probably had a different experience and think that I bashed my rucksack into their way... Maybe that was Phil Parker being an arse and deliberately shoving your rucksack! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 OK then. For starters ban rucksacks. Other types of exhibitions aren't plagued by them, why model railway exhibitions? As for the rude and inconsiderate challenge them as I do and try and shame them into behaving in a more civilised way. For goodness sake why that does even need explaining? I do like the way its always the rucksack wearer that is in the wrong! Maybe some of the non rucksack wearing people need to look in a mirror to see where the problem is (prejudice seems to be alive and well) because I was shoved by 20 times the number of people not wearing a rucksack as I was by people wearing one, but maybe thats because I dont crowd people so others will shove into the small gap I leave! I (wearing my rucksack) stopped to let a chap in an electric wheelchair get to a layout but a non rucksack wearer barged past me and walked into the wheelchair and then started to mouth off until I asked if he had seen me stop,he then shut up and carried on walking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This is getting very entertaining! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 When you've been whalloped by a rucksack then shoving back seems acceptable to me. However, thanks for making my point about policing behavior. It was suggested that we shouldn't just "put up with" inconsiderate behavior. Your threat of violence explains exactly why we have to accept it. I didnt 'barge' anyone with my rucksack because I looked behind me before slowly reversing out, turning around wasnt an option with a full rucksack and 4 other bags but I do apologise* if my spending habits caused you so much distress! * Actually I dont but hey! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Rubbish. That implies that to stand behind a person not wearing a rucksack means they won't 'reverse' in to you. Of course they can and that is also wrong. But it's also not acceptable for someone wearing one to do so either. The issue is that those wearing a rucksack need to be more considerate, more aware and not to expect everyone else to watch out for them and take special avoiding action concerning where they stand or walk. Those with the rucksack should do that and be more responsible. G. If you dont have a rucksack on then you have the option of turning around, an option not available to rucksack wearers, maybe if there is a rucksack wearer in front of you then common sense (remember that?) would indicate that when they leave their only option is to reverse otherwise they will swing into people beside them! If I want to look at a layout where do you suggest I stand then so I am more responsible? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 All I went for was a packet of N scale loco headlamps !!!!!!!!!!!! I've never been to Warley, Wigan is my local exhibition, busy but not too crowded this year. I didn't notice any rucksack aggression, perhaps due to not being too full. I stopped taking photos years ago, as better ones are searchable on the net for most layouts, and I don't wish to annoy operators of fellow viewers. BO can be a problem, some folks just don't care about their personal hygiene, but I find it is a rare "experience" thankfully. Sometimes I see families with young children struggling to view a layout. I always invite them to stand in front of me when possible, I suppose it's a sign of the rush rush rush, me me me times we live in. Pity the attitude is spilling over into our gentle hobby. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This is getting very entertaining! We aim to please, whether wearing a rucksack or not! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Your threat of violence explains exactly why we have to accept it. Such threats of violence (and obscene name calling later) are not acceptable on a forum or at an exhibition. It's quite a shameful attitude and typical of the rudeness and bad manners permeating modern society. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Such threats of violence (and obscene name calling later) are not acceptable on a forum or at an exhibition. It's quite a shameful attitude and typical of the rudeness and bad manners permeating modern society. G. The Thunderer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 If you dont have a rucksack on then you have the option of turning around, an option not available to rucksack wearers, How about asking politely when you want to move away or standing at the back of the crowd. You could also take the rucksack off you back and hold it by the top handle when viewing layouts. It's a matter of consideration that wearers should take when introducing something that may be a problem, not rudely expecting everyone else to accommodate them. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Deleted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This is getting very entertaining! Yes, it's just like being at Warley....oh wait....hang on.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ryde-on-time Posted November 28, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2016 Went to Warley on Sunday and had a fantastic time, great layouts and good selection of trade The bug bear for me was not the rucksack wearers but those with enormous cameras (perhaps suffering some sort of inferiority complex?). Both my arms are bruised this morning due to being hit numerous times by large dslr's with long heavy telescopic lenses, the sort that allow you to photograph a gnat from 500m. I can understand such lenses at an airshow, I use one myself, but seems totally unnecessary at an indoor exhibition. With the camera, a foot long lense and the hood attached, they stick out far more than the small rucksacks being worn. I would also have thought after spending so much money on photographic kit the user would take a bit more care Otherwise I found things quite good natured, perhaps helped by being quieter on Sunday (my reason for choosing that day) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted November 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2016 Rucksack using attendee here. I went on Saturday and only scored one direct hit with my bag when an Irish gentleman and I backed into each other by the Bachmann stand. I apologised, he apologised, no damage done as it was a low speed shunt and we decided that it was a racing incident rather than needing a stewards adjudication. I'm minded to suggest that if ones preconception of the exhibition is that it's going to be a hellish scrum then you'll see every incident through that filter and end up looking for hostility where none exists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I've started to make a point of shoving rucksucks not being carried by the top handle when in crowds. They are fair game. I attended Warley and committed the heinous crime of wearing a rucksack on my back (Check out what the word rucksack, which is derived from German, actually means). I did my absolute best to avoid bumping into anyone (even those who thought the best place for a long conversation was the middle of a narrow aisle) and made a particular point of making way for those older than me, small children (and their parents), and anyone using walking aids or a mobility scooter. I never got to see Copenhagen Fields properly because I don't believe in pushing other people out of the way; For the same reason I gave up completely at the Bachmann sales stand and never managed to find somewhere to sit down. I strongly resent being branded as some kind of anti-social moron by some of the holier-than-thou contributors to this topic, and if one of the self-appointed rucksack police such as Mr Parker had interfered with my belongings or person I would certainly have reacted in a robust but non-violent way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This thread is getting somewhat ridiculous. Of course in a crowd, there are going to be issues. I'm pretty certain that no-one carrying a rucksack sets out to hit people. Accidents happen, particularly when people are not looking because they are distracted by either browsing a stall or looking at a layout. If you accidentally hit someone, apologise and move on. We should all be capable of realising there was no malicious intent. Of course you cannot ban rucksacks. Some people need them - medication, spare clothes, food, nappies for small children etc etc. You can have convenient cloakrooms etc. Overall, if it's busy enough to be crowded, that's not a bad thing. It means there are enough people who are interested to keep the hobby alive, keep the rtr suppliersnin business and keep the specialist trade going to. If I was wandering around an empty Warley, I might not get the odd accidental knock but I'd be far more worried for the future of the hobby David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Having never been to Warley or any UK model train event in ages, I can assure you that you are not alone, rucksacks are alive and well in the US. Probably not as many as most US visitors will arrive by car as the availability of public transit is sometimes limited. This helps the situation as it all but eliminates some of the concerns voiced. Prams can be left home and babies with mother while father and friends get to see the trains. Why anybody would take a baby to a train show is beyond me anyway, yet you see them held high with father trying to get their attention and going Choo Choo, as though Junior will understand. Junior will never ask for a train set at Christmas as even at a young age such things are from another time. Otherwise the same scenarios exist here so its a universal modern problem. Years ago only hikers, etc., had rucksacks and exhibition were generally an easier place to get around; see photos from the forties and fifties. Personal hygiene was maybe a problem but not rucksacks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 How about asking politely when you want to move away or standing at the back of the crowd. You could also take the rucksack off you back and hold it by the top handle when viewing layouts. It's a matter of consideration that wearers should take when introducing something that may be a problem, not rudely expecting everyone else to accommodate them. G. So what do I do with the 4 other bags I was carrying in my hands? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krok182 Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This, plus the similar scramble onto the full-size trains at the end of the day, is why I skipped it, for the first time in many years. The solution? Restrict the number of tickets? (Lights blue touch paper and retires ... ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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