298 Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Perhaps one of the Monthlys could give away a super limited edition branded record-type bag for exhibition use as a gift for subscribing...? Or find out why the cloakrooms aren't used and a more secure provision made as I'm assuming those looking like they're on a 25 mile SAS hike still need the room for all those purchases, otherwise the traders would do less business or have to store bags in the limited and expensive space at their stands. In the same note, why aren't offenders challenged by someone in officialdom (the security employed by the venue would love this extra opportunity)...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted November 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2016 So lets all accept loutish behavior as the norm. And woe betide anyone who complains about it. That's it,no more to be said! Rucksacks Rule OK? Inconsiderate behaviour isn't limited to those wearing rucksacks on their backs. If you outlawed them at a show then something else would replace them. My last trip to a model railway show was with by 17 month old daughter. I choose to carry her in a sling and carried nappies, food and water in a small rucksack. I could have chosen to bring a pram in with me which would have caused much more chaos around me! Anyone with children with them needs both hands free - a rucksack helps with that. As I said before, it's not the rucksack that does the damage, it's the person using it. Happy modelling. Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted November 28, 2016 Administrators Share Posted November 28, 2016 So lets all accept loutish behavior as the norm. And woe betide anyone who complains about it. That's it,no more to be said! Rucksacks Rule OK? It's easy to say something must be done. Much harder to come up with an idea as to what that something actually is - which is why you haven't I presume. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I use a carrier bag for my purchasers and manage quite well without a rucksack. Same for me. I didn't even take a carrier bag as they are handed out with the first magazine you are proffered. No need for a rucksack at all. Travel light and comfortable - a rucksack is just something else to lug around and there is little the average person needs to take to a model railway exhibition that requires carrying around in a bag (and that couldn't be left in the cloakroom). G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardpidd Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 It's easy to say something must be done. Much harder to come up with an idea as to what that something actually is - which is why you haven't I presume. OK then. For starters ban rucksacks. Other types of exhibitions aren't plagued by them, why model railway exhibitions? As for the rude and inconsiderate challenge them as I do and try and shame them into behaving in a more civilised way. For goodness sake why that does even need explaining? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 The OP is essentially an explanation of why I haven't gone to Warley for many years now. The selfish, mindless behaviour of (at least) a substantial minority has a lot to do with the sort of society we have built over the last X years. An almost total lack of self-discipline and consideration for the needs of others seems to be hard-wired into many citizens. You would expect railway modellers to be relatively civilised, but that is probably naive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nile_Griffith Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm obviously a thorny subject and to deviate a little from my intended humorous tone while broaching the subject might I add something more direct. This weekend we brought along my 91 year old father in law who is pretty much confined to his wheel chair at such events. Now considering that this particular event is by and large attended by a section of the public considered by most to derive from the British middle classes. It pains me to say that of all the public events that we have taken the Old Giffa along too whilst doing his poor impression of Raymond Burr in "Ironside". We probably encountered more bad behaviour towards a wheelchair user from other visitors than at any other event we have been along too and by quite some way too!!!!!! The only saving grace has been the help and assistance offered by many of the exhibitors themselves to allow Young Bob to enjoy himself (A massive thank you goes to the two Dutch Guys with their Singapore market inspired layout who stopped short of picking the Old Fella up in his chair wholesale so that he could see their work!!!!!!!!) As for rucksacks. I'd agree with certain comments that the various retailers and media exhibitors seem more than happy to offer a perfectly acceptable means of carrying your hard won purchases and reassuringly none of my purchases were offered without an accompanying plastic bag. Granted many ruck sack users/wearers did seem to retain full control of their faculties and a reasonable grasp on their own spatial awareness. However what does make my own urine itch (and I've mad that statement as polite as I can). Are those that feel it is necessary to carry their own personal bloody empire around with them. The NEC offers secure cloakroom space. Indeed if a visitor feels the need to return to their personal belongings from an exhibition then the NEC's door staff are more than happy to validate your exit so that you may return and continue to enjoy the exhibition. As mentioned we attended the exhibition with our 91 year old father in law replete in his "Chorlton and the Wheelies" fancy dress outfit. Both myself and Ann take the view that although we want Bob to get the most out of his visit. His incapacity and dependence upon a wheelchair for mobility, often presents potential inconvenience to other visitors. It is at times like this where we will always defer to the common good. We and Bob have no rights over others. We are greatful to the manners, care and good humour offered by people we don't know in such situations. The gist is this. No matter how deserving we consider our situation to be, that does not give us grounds to set ourselves above the fair and reasonable entitlement of enjoyment to others. Similarly with the "Rucksack" debate. I have no real issue with the considerate use of a small carrier, but those who impose the inherent disadvantages of carrying what would be best described as not dissimilar to the sort of thing needed for a twenty kilometre route march across the Brecon beacons. Do need to be reminded of the impact of their personal choice upon others. It is unfortunate that we seem to live in a 3M society. Me, Mine and More. Me First. Thats Mine and I want More of it! It just seems to me to be rather unfortunate that such behavious seems to be more prevalent at an exhibition like Warley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted November 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2016 I visited the Cologne Model Railway exhibhition, large purpose built exhibition centre. Some people had rucksacks, some large carrier bags (think 0 gauge locos and track). No problems with bad behaviour, BO or rucksacks. Very pleasant day out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted November 28, 2016 Administrators Share Posted November 28, 2016 OK then. For starters ban rucksacks. Other types of exhibitions aren't plagued by them, why model railway exhibitions? As for the rude and inconsiderate challenge them as I do and try and shame them into behaving in a more civilised way. For goodness sake why that does even need explaining? Because it's not obvious as the statement "Other types of exhibitions aren't plagued by them" isn't accurate. There were plenty of rucksacks at the NEC classic car show. You can play spot the backpack here (I've marked the ones I could see easily): That was, even at £25 a ticket, easily as crowded as any model railway show. You'll also find rucksacks worn by people in every city centre. It's not the rucksack, it's a small number of people's inability to behave appropriately while wearing them, i.e. carrying them by the top handle. Banning the things means you'll be turning people away at the door unless storage arrangements have been made. That's another nightmare task for the organisers and another angry thread from those who weren't let in. This doesn't solve the problem of people barging in infront of others, interrupting conversations, shoving around at sales stands or simply being smelly. Anyone volunteering to perform a sniff test at the door? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reggie Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 i don't often commet, but I do agree with a lot said, i found a lot of people very inconsiderate, pushy, rude and down right arrogant, and i'm afraid a good percentage were from the older generation, barging in to any space either at a layout or trader with no condsideration for others around them. A bar of soap and a good shower would not go amis too on a lot. Rucksacks are always a problem, as said by others, and if people have made purchases the bags are too. One answer would be a stand inside the exhibition where you could drop off your rucksack/bags in exchange for a ticket to be able to retirive it later. This would allow people to make their purchases, check the bag/rucksack in and then walk around the exhibition unencoumbered, then return later to collect their belongings. Just a thought, could even be a small charge, I would happily pay a £1 for this, I do already check my coat in,but of course that is outside the exhibition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This is all getting a little serious but if you mix retail and exhibition materials in the same location then there is going to be an issue - Warley is heavily attended by merchants of materials that come in rather large boxes. If we want to do away with people with any kind of bag then you will have to ban retailers and that will kill Warley, end of. It isn't bags or rucksacks that cause the problem, it's people, however, you cannot simply label everyone who barges as rude and inconsiderate. Our hobby like it or not attracts a type of person who may not always be fully aware of their impact on others, their behaviour to other people might seem rude or brusque, to them it's normal and they cannot help it. Me, I have my own issues and I am aware of them, I do my best to keep them under control when out among the rest of the world but I will be the chap who sometimes struggles to get a sentence out when speaking to someone or what does come out sounds like gobbledygook. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Much BO around? Not a lot of actual BO in my experience this year - maybe a 'culture change' is finally under way after the publicity on RMWeb? - but on Sunday afternoon I was left literally gasping from the truly powerful smell of wee emanating from a middle-aged man who came and stood next to me while watching Grantham. I moved down to the other end of the layout to get clear ... and within a minute the beggar had shuffled alongside me again. Now I'm old enough to know that, for all sorts of medical reasons, 'accidents' can happen - even though he was somewhat younger than me - and appreciate also that in those incredibly cramped badly laid-out NEC gents toilets, getting barged and briefly losing focus on your aim is a genuine hazard - but this was just GROSS! Sorry - but you did ask! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nile_Griffith Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 This is all getting a little serious but if you mix retail and exhibition materials in the same location then there is going to be an issue - Warley is heavily attended by merchants of materials that come in rather large boxes. If we want to do away with people with any kind of bag then you will have to ban retailers and that will kill Warley, end of. It isn't bags or rucksacks that cause the problem, it's people, however, you cannot simply label everyone who barges as rude and inconsiderate. Our hobby like it or not attracts a type of person who may not always be fully aware of their impact on others, their behaviour to other people might seem rude or brusque, to them it's normal and they cannot help it. Me, I have my own issues and I am aware of them, I do my best to keep them under control when out among the rest of the world but I will be the chap who sometimes struggles to get a sentence out when speaking to someone or what does come out sounds like gobbledygook. Part of the issue with just "sweeping things under the carpet" and saying "well thats just the way it is". Is that what was once unacceptable, becomes grudgingly accepted. I don't think that there is anyone who has used their valuable time to reply who doesn't genuinely feel that respectful good manners and consideration of other visitors to such exhibitions is a worthwhile standard to pursue. Rather like the "Gun" argument. That there are no bad guns just bad owners. Within this argument it is agreed, that there are no bad rucksacks, just bad rucksack owners. However that well accepted fact shouldn't prohibit discussion of the issue that is raised. There have been thirty odd replies to this topic but some seven hundred plus views. So it maybe that within those seven hundred readings of peoples responses and opinions that some folks might re-consider their use of rucksacks in the future or prompt them to remember to use a little courtesy towards others. Well intentioned and succinctly levelled conversation along with a fair exchange of views and facts is as educating as any txt book. After all isn't that what the intended purpose of the forum is. To enlighten, inform and educate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Bachmann 'Sale' Stand = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXw54C6p57c Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Because it's not obvious as the statement "Other types of exhibitions aren't plagued by them" isn't accurate. There were plenty of rucksacks at the NEC classic car show. You can play spot the backpack here (I've marked the ones I could see easily): I think one of the main differences between model railway and other shows is that the main attraction stands (layouts) generally only have one fairly small viewing side meaning those wishing to see are all crammed together in a small limited space up against a barrier. This means that there tends to be a greater propensity for jostling and shoving. Cars and motorbikes can be displayed so they are able to be viewed from all sides and the trade stands are usually professionally designed and built to allow potential custmers to approach and access them from several sides and aisles. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I didn't go to Warley and I normally use a laptop bag at shows but it seems to me that if organisers had a cloakroom where bags and wet clothing etc could be checked in then it would be a great help. Surely Warley if not your local show could afford to do that. It's big enough and it must make an absolute fortune for the club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Not a lot of actual BO in my experience this year - maybe a 'culture change' is finally under way after the publicity on RMWeb? - but on Sunday afternoon I was left literally gasping from the truly powerful smell of wee emanating from a middle-aged man who came and stood next to me while watching Grantham. I moved down to the other end of the layout to get clear ... and within a minute the beggar had shuffled alongside me again. Now I'm old enough to know that, for all sorts of medical reasons, 'accidents' can happen - even though he was somewhat younger than me - and appreciate also that in those incredibly cramped badly laid-out NEC gents toilets, getting barged and briefly losing focus on your aim is a genuine hazard - but this was just GROSS! Sorry - but you did ask! A bit ironic given your user name (Said completely in jest) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I think one of the main differences between model railway and other shows is that the main attraction stands (layouts) generally only have one fairly small viewing side meaning those wishing to see are all crammed together in a small limited space up against a barrier. This means that there tends to be a greater propensity for jostling and shoving. Cars and motorbikes can be displayed so they are able to be viewed from all sides and the trade stands are usually professionally designed and built to allow potential custmers to approach and access them from several sides and aisles. G. Also, many trade stands have such very limited depth and frontage that once the stallholder becomes heavily engaged on one of those interminable "why don't you make a 4mm-scale sprocket wangler" conversations, other would-be punters often cannot get close enough to see what's on offer, let alone actually buy anything (unless they're prepared to wait what can feel like an eternity ... especially when thoughtless people keep barging into one's rucksack and grumbling at you as you try to queue very patiently and catch the stall-holder's eye without actually blocking either the too-narrow aisle or access to the next stand ...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 A bit ironic given your user name Ah, that refers to quite a different problem ....!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Not a lot of actual BO in my experience this year - maybe a 'culture change' is finally under way after the publicity on RMWeb? - but on Sunday afternoon I was left literally gasping from the truly powerful smell of wee emanating from a middle-aged man who came and stood next to me while watching Grantham. I moved down to the other end of the layout to get clear ... and within a minute the beggar had shuffled alongside me again. Now I'm old enough to know that, for all sorts of medical reasons, 'accidents' can happen - even though he was somewhat younger than me - and appreciate also that in those incredibly cramped badly laid-out NEC gents toilets, getting barged and briefly losing focus on your aim is a genuine hazard - but this was just GROSS! Sorry - but you did ask! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Part of the issue with just "sweeping things under the carpet" and saying "well thats just the way it is". Is that what was once unacceptable, becomes grudgingly accepted. I don't think that there is anyone who has used their valuable time to reply who doesn't genuinely feel that respectful good manners and consideration of other visitors to such exhibitions is a worthwhile standard to pursue. Not all disability is visible and as you've experienced yourself at Warley with somebody who obviously has a disability not everyone is kind towards that person. We all like good manners, it makes the world a much better place but my point was that sometimes that person might not be able to help how they are and to to consider that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I've been to warley twice, the most recent occasion ten years ago, and it was too busy/crowded to be enjoyable both times, which is why I've never been back. No other event, of the many, that I've been to at the NEC has felt half as overcrowded. My gut feel is that there is something uniquely difficult about displaying things that are best enjoyed by a lengthy examination, at a range of 18" to 4ft, to thousands of people, in a relatively short space of time. Different sorts of shows, with fewer attendees per layout-frontage-foot-per-hour definitely appeal more to me. And, fiddle yards; don't get me started! How many metres square get devoted to them? And, how many attendees can actually get to see the entire magazine of trains??? A rethink is needed. Kevin PS: and, some railway exhibition attendees are astonishingly inept when it comes to human nature interactions; a greater proportion than at any other type of event I've been to! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nile_Griffith Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 PS: and, some railway exhibition attendees are astonishingly inept when it comes to human nature interactions; a greater proportion than at any other type of event I've been to! Gets my vote!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I've started to make a point of shoving rucksucks not being carried by the top handle when in crowds. They are fair game. Its a good job you didnt try that with me or my son because I might have been inclined to rearrange your teeth for you! What gives you the right to push people around simply because they are wearing a rucksack? For somebody moaning on about people lacking manners and consideration you dont seem to have any yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Wow! An on-line reenactment of what I missed at the weekend! K Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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