Bulleid Coaches

[andytrains]

2nd Opens, SC 1466, 71,79, 82, 84, 89, 95, 98, 1500, 02 & 04 S, were transferred to Scotland. I have read somewhere that they were all painted Maroon before transfer.

[phil-b259]

On 26/12/2022 at 13:41, Halvarras said:

Many thanks for that - sometimes I can manage it and sometimes I can't....!

 

Maybe Scotland didn't need them, or maybe there weren't any spare ones as the Western had grabbed them all (for some reason.....!)

A couple of instances of Bulleid brake vehicle use on the WR in 1965 I know where to find in my book collection:

 

'Diesel Hydraulics in the West Country' page 19 - excellent colour view of a rather battered-looking D1010 crossing a viaduct in the Fowey valley with a rake of BR Mark 1s except the second vehicle which is a green Bulleid brake coach - its remarkably clean light grey roof also stands out in the otherwise all-maroon train. Dated 4/9/65.

 

'Western Region in the 1960s' - 0-6-2T 6643 working a 4-coach enthusiasts' special near Cwm Bargoed - two Mark 1s, a Hawksworth and  Bulleid brake on the rear - again its roof looks cleaner than the other three (could be the same vehicle?) - the caption points it out as one of the transfers from the SR which were "subsequently painted in maroon livery" but in this b&w photo and its position at the far end of the train its livery cannot be determined.

 

Some Bulleid stock transferred to the WR and ScR clearly were repainted maroon but whether eventually they all were is uncertain, to me anyway. Those which went far north were followed by a few green Mark 1s and I believe these became the last green Mark 1s in service.

 

My memory might be playing tricks but I seem to recall that the main driver of this move was to release Mk1s to be converted into TC and REP units for the  Bournemouth electrification scheme (apart from the REP driving cars every other carriage was converted from loco hauled examples).

 

The other thing that I recall is that as the Southern was moving to a ETH only railway (the 33s and 73s not being equipped with steam heat) then a swap of steam heat Bulleids for electrically heated Mk1s may have been the primary motivation.

 

In both cases though the need for ordinary second class coaches would outnumber other types so that  would also help explain why open seconds were in the majority in Scotland.

[SRman]

On 27/12/2022 at 03:03, andytrains said:

2nd Opens, SC 1466, 71,79, 82, 84, 89, 95, 98, 1500, 02 & 04 S, were transferred to Scotland. I have read somewhere that they were all painted Maroon before transfer.

I have seen a photo with a green Bulleid coach in Scotland, but I cannot report its number. I'll have to see if I can locate the book concerned, but don't hold your breath.

[Halvarras]

On 13/01/2023 at 07:07, SRman said:

I have seen a photo with a green Bulleid coach in Scotland, but I cannot report its number. I'll have to see if I can locate the book concerned, but don't hold your breath.

 

Not Bulleid, but page 24 of the colour album 'The Heyday of the Scottish Diesels' shows 5409 at Ayr on 18 June 1970 with an excursion which includes two green Mark 1s, a BSK behind the loco and what looks like a CK further down the train.

[Jack P]

Any updates on when the 'SOUTHERN' Liveried coaches might appear?

[Oldddudders]

40 minutes ago, Jack P said:

Any updates on when the 'SOUTHERN' Liveried coaches might appear?

We were told the SR sets had been wrongly numbered, and had to be sent back to China. Obviously this task wasn't in the factory's schedule, and of course Chinese New Year has recently brought up all the usual returning workforce issues. Don't hold your breath. 

[Pteremy]

Rails seem to be heavily discounting the first batch that arrived. Could be some wait for 3 car BR Green set.

[Fishoutofwater]

3 hours ago, Pteremy said:

Rails seem to be heavily discounting the first batch that arrived. Could be some wait for 3 car BR Green set.

A very long wait.

The only carriages expected are in SR malachite green.

(Bachmannweb shows delivery May/June)

Edited March 25, 2023 by Fishoutofwater

[Dunsignalling]

49 minutes ago, Fishoutofwater said:

A very long wait.

The only carriages expected are in SR malachite green.

(Bachmannweb shows delivery May/June)

Probably not as long as the wait we had for the first releases, though years rather than months. The gap between the crimson/cream Thompsons and the recent maroon ones might offer a guide.

 

Southern Region buyers generally prefer green liveried coaches to crimson/cream. The Hornby Maunsells that got discounted were overwhelmingly the latter. The green ones sold through much quicker at closer to full RRP.

 

Bachmann generally tend to get the least popular liveries out first, in the hope that we get impatient and buy them rather waiting for what we really want. The idea being that, ultimately, we buy both! 

 

With higher prices making their presence felt across the board, I suspect that strategy may not be working as well as it has in the past. 

 

Rails prices for them are now more in line with Hornby coaches so they should shift, and I'm beginning to waver. My 2-set is superb, but I'm inclined to hang on for a 5-set in green to match. Even at the reduced prices, a crimson/cream 5-set would set me back £275 for something that doesn't quite hit the spot.

 

I suppose I could just get the BSK+CK+BSK and forego the corridor seconds..... 

 

John

Edited March 25, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[RFS]

The Hornby SR Bulleids are now on offer at Kernow for £17.99 each.

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, RFS said:

The Hornby SR Bulleids are now on offer at Kernow for £17.99 each.

Though only brake ends. None of the composites they ran with as 3-coach sets from 1946-1965.

 

Did Hornby under-produce the CKs, or have the Rule 1 mob over-bought them to make non-prototypical longer trains, I wonder....

 

All that said, although about half the sets had, by then, been withdrawn as complete entities, a few of the BSKs found employment bookending longer mixed rakes during the final two years of Southern steam.

 

John

[RFS]

35 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Though only brake ends. None of the composites they ran with as 3-coach sets from 1946-1965.

 

Did Hornby under-produce the CKs, or have the Rule 1 mob over-bought them to make non-prototypical longer trains, I wonder....

 

All that said, although about half the sets had, by then, been withdrawn as complete entities, a few of the BSKs found employment bookending longer mixed rakes during the final two years of Southern steam.

 

John

 

Not sure why Kernow are out of stock on the composites, but there are plenty available on Ebay. For example, here where the business seller has more than 10 available. So you can still get a set of 3 for around £80.

[Butler Henderson]

2 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Not sure why Kernow are out of stock on the composites, but there are plenty available on Ebay. For example, here where the business seller has more than 10 available. So you can still get a set of 3 for around £80.

Presumably a lot of purchasers are oblivous to the SR set arrangements and have bought more composites to stick between the brake ends. EFEs book set approach ought to be adopted by Bachmann and Hornby for their Southern coaches

Edited March 26, 2023 by Butler Henderson

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

Not sure why Kernow are out of stock on the composites, but there are plenty available on Ebay. For example, here where the business seller has more than 10 available. So you can still get a set of 3 for around £80.

Not that I need any more!

 

It looks like "certain elements" might have been buying up the CKs knowing that, for most, the brakes will be useless without them... 

 

I've never fathomed why Hornby didn't package these together as the did with the "Somerset & Dorset" Maunsell 3-sets, and as EFE have done with their LSWR "Cross-country" stock..

 

Bachmann's Birdcages also ran "in teams", as did their current crimson/cream Bulleids. The vehicles portrayed ran as 3-sets out of season and 5-sets in the summer. A nicely presented 3-set with the thirds/seconds offered separately would make far more sense.  

 

US brands are far more switched-on about this sort of thing.

 

John

 

 

[cctransuk]

7 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Not that I need any more!

 

It looks like "certain elements" might have been buying up the CKs knowing that, for most, the brakes will be useless without them... 

 

I've never fathomed why Hornby didn't package these together as the did with the "Somerset & Dorset" Maunsell 3-sets, and as EFE have done with their LSWR "Cross-country" stock..

 

Bachmann's Birdcages also ran "in teams", as did their current crimson/cream Bulleids. The vehicles portrayed ran as 3-sets out of season and 5-sets in the summer. A nicely presented 3-set with the thirds/seconds offered separately would make far more sense.  

 

US brands are far more switched-on about this sort of thing.

 

John

 

 

 

Look at it from the company's perspective - if the 'don't know, don't care' sector choose to buy lots of CKs to form long trains, that's great!

 

If they package them as prototypical sets, those extra sales are lost - in fact, the buyer may instead decide to purchase from someone who DOES sell individual coaches.

 

CJI.

Edited March 26, 2023 by cctransuk

[Ian J.]

I think the established 'manufacturers' still have old thinking in place, where if they produce lots of separate boxes people not in the know will happily buy up stuff to make a rule 1 train. To a reasonable extent this probably remains true.

 

However, with the up and comers like AS and the like paying more attention to our interests as modellers (rather than collectors or 'Rule 1' runners) the old thinking is starting to feel very old. That said, I don't think they would likely go down a route of boxed sets of Southern / BR(S) sets, due to inflation damaging our ability to buy so much in one package, but rather just make sure their production runs are balanced accordingly, and provide good information on what goes with what.

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Presumbaly a lot of purchasers are oblivous to the SR set arrangements and have bought more composites to stick between the brake ends. EFEs book set approach ought to be adopted by Bachmann and Hornby for their Southern coaches

I fear the price of a 3-set is enough to make some modellers baulk - especially in these  tougher times. And the Hornby Maunsells in olive permitted the astute buyer to make up a whole 6-car (Set 470) or even 7-car (Set 469) w authentic numbers. Malachite numbers allowed a 5-car (Set 209) as did C&C (Set 242). A copy of Gould or King helps! 

 

I find the Bachmann Bulleids to be excellent. As far as the wrong numbering on the malachite version is concerned, I spoke to a dealer who would much rather have had the opportunity to sell these discounted rather than wait for them to come back from China corrected. A significant number of purchasers are indeed not that bothered about correct coach numbers. 

[stovepipe]

 

52 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

Not sure why Kernow are out of stock on the composites, but there are plenty available on Ebay. For example, here where the business seller has more than 10 available. So you can still get a set of 3 for around £80.

 

Indeed, I got a Malachite 3-set 973 for £68 (£76 posted), from Cheltenham MC for the brakes and Tennets Trains for the composite.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I fear the price of a 3-set is enough to make some modellers baulk - especially in these  tougher times. And the Hornby Maunsells in olive permitted the astute buyer to make up a whole 6-car (Set 470) or even 7-car (Set 469) w authentic numbers. Malachite numbers allowed a 5-car (Set 209) as did C&C (Set 242). A copy of Gould or King helps! 

 

I find the Bachmann Bulleids to be excellent. As far as the wrong numbering on the malachite version is concerned, I spoke to a dealer who would much rather have had the opportunity to sell these discounted rather than wait for them to come back from China corrected. A significant number of purchasers are indeed not that bothered about correct coach numbers. 

 

True, but the (B.R liveried) Maunsell selection that Hornby packaged together did only run that way, and the price of such a set at full RRP would still fall well short of that of a new medium/large loco from the same source.

 

The later re-run was only sold separately so I suspect your assessment was shared at Margate. Hornby won't be bothered (despite their "accuracy, accuracy, accuracy", mantra), so long as they emptied their warehouse. However, it can distort the retail "playing field", and in this case may have done so. 

 

The danger of selling everything individually is made clear by Kernow's need for clearance pricing of the Bulleid 59' brakes. It might be, of course, that they "brought it upon themselves" by disproportionately selling their own supply of CKs to those not also purchasing brakes! 

 

I wouldn't advocate packaging coaches as sets that were used in a more generalised way. Indeed, I have accumulated a couple of dozen individual Maunsells, including a couple of low-window SKs split from  "1957 Suburban" train packs (and not offered any other way), to make up various more "commonplace" sets and use as loose "strengtheners". 

 

My preference would be a combination of both approaches as relevant to prototype practice.  

 

John

Edited March 26, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[cctransuk]

29 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

It might be, of course, that they "brought it upon themselves" by disproportionately selling their own supply of CKs to those not also purchasing brakes!

 

A sale is money in the bank - are they to refuse to sell CKs unless you buy two BSKs as well?!?

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

A sale is money in the bank - are they to refuse to sell CKs unless you buy two BSKs as well?!?

 

CJI.

Though, at £17.99 each for the brakes (assuming they eventually sell at that) , it might well wipe out most of whatever profit was made from selling the CKs. 

 

Not an ideal situation from either viewpoint.

 

John

[spamcan61]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

The danger of selling everything individually is made clear by Kernow's need for clearance pricing of the Bulleid 59' brakes. It might be, of course, that they "brought it upon themselves" by disproportionately selling their own supply of CKs to those not also purchasing brakes! 

 

John

These cheap Bulleid brakes aren't unique to KMRC, many sellers (including Hornby themselves) have been selling them for 20 quid, give or take, for a year or more. There were a few compos available at the same price, but they disappeared pretty quickly. Quite how this situation has arisen, across multiple retailers, I'm not sure, unless the entire supply chain seriously over estimated the proportion of buyers operating these in 'proper' sets.

Edited March 26, 2023 by spamcan61

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

These cheap Bulleid brakes aren't unique to KMRC, many sellers (including Hobby themselves) have been selling them for 20 quid, give or take, for a year or more. There were a few compos available at the same price, but they disappeared pretty quickly. Quite how this situation has arisen, across multiple retailers, I'm not sure, unless the entire supply chain seriously over estimated the proportion of buyers operating these in 'proper' sets.

 

I must confess not to have been aware of that as I'd obtained my own requirements much earlier....

 

I had been contemplating a further set but that idea was overtaken by the announcement and arrival of the LSWR Cross-country stock from EFE.

 

The CKs are still readily obtainable via eBay to complete sets, albeit at rather closer to RRP.

 

John

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[spamcan61]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I must confess not to have been aware of that as I'd obtained my own requirements much earlier....

 

John

 

Much the same here, thought I'd done well buying a 3 set for 95 quid!

[Graham_Muz]

For some reason far more brake coaches have been produced by Hornby than composites. 
Perhaps someone thought every SR sets require two Brakes...  but then forgot that they were producing each brake as a separate version number...