Modern Image split

[dj_crisp]

I'm not sure where this is going and imo the arguments placed could easily be applied to any genre/era. Modellers model what they want to see and if they enjoy themselves then fair play.

 

It's funny cause I actually feel some of the digs could very easily be directed at me. After all I live in Surrey with no permanent layout (yet) and spend my time attempting to ultra hack stock. I actually find it quite fun (and running qualities on my test track are my main priority). I'll probably never join a club as I doubt there are many out there who also spend a few months researching MK1 stock in the late 80s early 90s and find it fun... And then go for EM gauge. Anyway that's my current project and what's keeping me sane (?) away from work.

 

A small point I'll make is I don't need to see a layout in every magazine. I tend to read (and find more interesting) smaller achieveable projects... be it stock. .. line side details... electronics etc. And if they have a D&E theme then all the better. (I really could have done with one recently on modifications to MK1 coaches

[Legend]

How could I forget Mr Wade's masterpiece, Tonbridge West Yard has EMU sidings, which no one models according to some. But we cannot count it really because most of Paul's EMUs are MTK kits and "modern image" modellers don't do modelling, so we are lead to believe.

What do all these demu modellers do then ?

[Les1952]

I often wonder WHY people get so fixated about "there isn't a (insert genre here) layout in the curret Model Railway Destructor Magazine" or "There weren't enough Colonel Stephens Monorails at Ugthorpe Model Railway Show".

 

When I read a model railway magazine (and I subscribe to two) I read ALL of it - whether the layouts and other articles fit my period or not.  Likewise when I go to a show I look very carefully at EVERY layout I've not seen before, even those that are trying to irritate my eardrums with gratuitous sound or those where a loco is creeping along at a rate of exactly four furlongs a fortnight because "they never went any faster than that" - another of my pet hates.

 

Why?   Because I expect that I will learn something from every article and every layout at a show, no matter what the period.  It might be a way of bedding in a building I'd not seen before.  It might be someone has got something to work I think is beyond me.  It might at worst be an example of "that doesn't look right- why doesn't it?".

 

If I turn away from one era just because I think banger blue is boring (which I do despite having a banger blue class 73 in my showcase) or because it looks prehistoric or too "samey" then I am likely to miss something I can use in my modelling.  And I use the word modelling.  I may not be able to build kits to a high standard or to get buildings to have square corners even with all the necessary jigs but I CAN adapt and create - which is what modelling is all about.

 

Lastly three pics, one from each of my layouts that has made it into a magazine.  The one that IS set in the post-2000 era is the one that very many people gave a quick glance to and walked straight past.  

 

 

 

 

Les

Edited March 5, 2018 by Les1952

[Northmoor]

How could I forget Mr Wade's masterpiece, Tonbridge West Yard has EMU sidings, which no one models according to some. But we cannot count it really because most of Paul's EMUs are MTK kits and "modern image" modellers don't do modelling, so we are lead to believe.

Never saw TWY, but I had forgotten it.

 

From the evidence you've put forward, I think what you're saying is, I'm obviously not going to the right exhibitions? :-)

[Ravenser]

Yeah it was small it only took 3 x 2car long underframe units on each road, in 4mm that is building 6 feet long before you have anything outside. Longer than Finsbury Park or Tinsley.

LN.jpg

 

Therefore a compressed version could reasonably take 2 x 2car long underframe units (ie a pair of 114s) = a 4 foot long shed.

 

A very crude check of that OS plan suggests that the whole site was a bit more than twice the length of the shed, ie around 14' at dead scale in 4mm. 

 

(In other words  the actual DMU shed might be longer than the  shed at a diesel depot - but at a diesel depot the shed would be a relatively modest element of the complex, whereas at a DMU depot the shed would take up a large part of the site)

 

If you compress by about 1/3rd you get a 2 road shed ,4' long and holding 2 x 2 car units. I don't think anyone would actually attempt to build a depot layout capable of holding 22 DMUs - you'd compress.  It ought to be possible to get a reasonable approximation , with a 4' fiddle yard, into 20' x 2' (perhaps 20' x 2'6" at a pinch) - the 4' fiddle yard might be a sector plate taking 2 x 2 car units (say 3'8" sector plate + 4" run on)

 

If the main line was at the back of the layout, it ought to be possible to screen off the last 3-4' of it with buildings and use a cassette arrangement to give a second fiddle without losing scenic frontage, allowing modest length trains to run behind on the main line

 

(Alternatively, in a loft setting, with a 2' radius curve at each end replacing the fiddle yards, and storage sidings on the other side of the oval, you're down to about 17' length)

 

I don't think that would be much bigger than Graham Muspratt's Fisherton Sarum? Maybe one 4' board longer than Hanging Hill?   It would certainly be a heck of a lot smaller than Aberdeen Kirkhill. It's definitely not an impractical concept. Yes the shed would dominate the layout, but that's a reflection of reality . There's the question of wanting to see inside the shed.

 

But a DMU depot is far from impossible in terms of space. Just how big would a model of the entire depot complex at Tinley, Finsbury Park or Immingham be if modelled at 2/3rds of dead scale size?

[Clive Mortimore]

What do all these demu modellers do then ?

Sit and look at things on the interwebthingy, well that is wot I have done the past few nights.

 

I keep getting the urge to modify a Hornby Railroad Black five into a Caprotti version.    I should be working on my DMUs ready for when I get my layout working    ....mind you a Caprotti black five would be suitable for my planned layout. I did nail some track on the baseboards earlier today.

[LBRJ]

A group of modellers who realised that calling all diesel and electric model railways "Modern Image" wasn't fitting for a period covering 60 odd years. That group was the Diesel and Electric Modellers United. Please do visit our exhibition at Burton on Trent, Town Hall, 2nd and 3rd June 2018. 

I have been several times - it often seems to rain on me when there!

I like to see good diesel and electric trainsets (and steam ones too!) I just dont really like the term, thats all. Im all D and no E really

 

I cant see whats wrong with using a really simple yet descriptive  term like "Based in Lincolnshire in 1970s" 

[Suzie]

For me it is hard to visualise a railway that is operationally interesting with small trains being anything other than a bit 'foreign' or from the olden days. In my part of the world a single track branch line is typically operated with 4-car EMUs off peak (longer at peak times) and freight is just container trains. I know going north a bit over the border there is the odd 153 lurking about but if I see a layout that is anything other than a siding diorama operated with 2-car DMUs it seems a bit artificial or old fashioned or decidedly off-peak - and even that does not wash when the 2-car DMU fills the whole platform. You can do selective compression but you cannot squeeze the prototype until the pips squeak and get away with it.

 

This is of course going to make modern layouts less attractive to the modeller strapped for space, and rather limit the options available, but it would be nice to see a few more modern layouts at exhibition of an adequate size to represent the real railway that people experience rather than an artificial mini-world microcosm. Excluding all layouts over 10' because of wanting to cram in hundreds of mini layouts does seem strange when variety is the aim and the public does like to see the odd train moving from time to time.

 

I am quite tempted to build a small 00 branch line station layout myself for the stock that I have, but it will need four feet of fiddleyard at each end to take the minimum sized 4-car train and an 8' platform (perhaps shortened a bit to 6' because no one is going to measure it) but it is going to be 16' long in compressed format. This is a layout so simple that it has no points on the scenic section which is still 8' long.

 

If an exhibition is going to attract me to visit it is going to have to have more than just twenty short planks regardless of how exquisitely they are modelled, and the magazines too. Exhibitions need the wow factor if they are going to survive.

[LBRJ]

Why do you need to see the whole train?

Normally when looking at something full size there are structures and other things in the way

Just a glimpse as someone may have once said, is enough to give a feeling of "being there"

[Ravenser]

For me it is hard to visualise a railway that is operationally interesting with small trains being anything other than a bit 'foreign' or from the olden days. In my part of the world a single track branch line is typically operated with 4-car EMUs off peak (longer at peak times) and freight is just container trains. I know going north a bit over the border there is the odd 153 lurking about but if I see a layout that is anything other than a siding diorama operated with 2-car DMUs it seems a bit artificial or old fashioned or decidedly off-peak - and even that does not wash when the 2-car DMU fills the whole platform. You can do selective compression but you cannot squeeze the prototype until the pips squeak and get away with it.

 

This is of course going to make modern layouts less attractive to the modeller strapped for space, and rather limit the options available, but it would be nice to see a few more modern layouts at exhibition of an adequate size to represent the real railway that people experience rather than an artificial mini-world microcosm. Excluding all layouts over 10' because of wanting to cram in hundreds of mini layouts does seem strange when variety is the aim and the public does like to see the odd train moving from time to time.

 

I am quite tempted to build a small 00 branch line station layout myself for the stock that I have, but it will need four feet of fiddleyard at each end to take the minimum sized 4-car train and an 8' platform (perhaps shortened a bit to 6' because no one is going to measure it) but it is going to be 16' long in compressed format. This is a layout so simple that it has no points on the scenic section which is still 8' long.

 

If an exhibition is going to attract me to visit it is going to have to have more than just twenty short planks regardless of how exquisitely they are modelled, and the magazines too. Exhibitions need the wow factor if they are going to survive.

 

Er try this....

 

 

Lincoln St Marks, 1981 - platforms would take no more than 3 x Mk3

 

Ipswich:

 

Lincoln Central:

 

Ravenglass

 

York:

[Suzie]

Look at how those trains are dwarfed by the platforms. I guess Lincoln St Marks might just fit in 10' then.

[009 micro modeller]

To answer a question from a while back, my cake box will feature diesels when it's finished, but narrow gauge ones, which is probably wrong for some people (I'm distracted now imagining what a Colonel Stephens monorail might be like). Another area I am interested in is early suburban electric railways (though I don't model them at the moment) showing how difficult it is to pigeonhole people's interests (they appeal as prototypes for many of the same reasons NG lines do). I usually find any unusual or well-executed model interesting even if I have no special interest in its subject.

Edited March 6, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[Clive Mortimore]

Er try this....

 

Lincoln St Marks002.jpg

 

Lincoln St Marks, 1981 - platforms would take no more than 3 x Mk3

 

Ipswich:

P1010212 800x600.JPG

 

Lincoln Central:

P1010283.JPG

 

Ravenglass

Cumbria 05048 640x480.jpg

 

York:

144@YKApr06.jpg

Oh someone has shrunk these coaches or could the station take a few more than 3?

 

As for the photo at Ipswich, it is in the carriage sidings.

 

I am not sure what you are trying to prove. D&E modellers produce a wide variety of layouts, just like our fellow modellers who's layouts have model steam locomotives on them. We are all railway modellers.

 

I can think of a real branch line station that had a short platform which could only hold 4 Mk1 suburban EMUs for many years. It now can take 8 coaches. In the mornings there was an 8 coach train that went through to London. When it arrived at the junction station most the passengers jumped out the rear coaches and ran down the front to get in the empty unit. It was quite funny to watch each morning. Where is this place? Ah why it is Braintree.

[ruggedpeak]

Oh someone has shrunk these coaches or could the station take a few more than 3?

 

As for the photo at Ipswich, it is in the carriage sidings.

 

I am not sure what you are trying to prove. D&E modellers produce a wide variety of layouts, just like our fellow modellers who's layouts have model steam locomotives on them. We are all railway modellers.

 

I can think of a real branch line station that had a short platform which could only hold 4 Mk1 suburban EMUs for many years. It now can take 8 coaches. In the mornings there was an 8 coach train that went through to London. When it arrived at the junction station most the passengers jumped out the rear coaches and ran down the front to get in the empty unit. It was quite funny to watch each morning. Where is this place? Ah why it is Braintree.

The junction station being Witham. There is plenty of opportunity for contemporary modelling.

 

I bought this month's RM as it had a piece on modelling Marks Tey, further up the GE. A mainline with a branch facing away from London and sand terminal. Plus Denley Moor layout. I"l buy any model mags with decent D&E content. I read all the articles as there's always something to learn but impulse purchases are driven by there being several D&E articles. RM appear good at putting D&E on the cover, but I haven't counted to see if they do it more frequently than other mags.

 

As for layouts, Ipswich if condensed has great opportunities for operations, plus a tunnel/scenic break at one end. On a busy day you have 90/DVT services, container trains, 153's and positioning moves by the Freightliner locos from the depot behind station - 66's and 70's moving on and off the mainline, can be half a dozen on the go at once. All are available in RTR. Add in other moves such Mk3's from Norwich to Ilford for tyre turning, or en route for refurbishment, plus DRS activity by 37's etc linked to Norwich.

 

[ruggedpeak]

Why do you need to see the whole train?

Normally when looking at something full size there are structures and other things in the way

Just a glimpse as someone may have once said, is enough to give a feeling of "being there"

My micro layout (see below) is designed to be a self contained plank but with the addition of a fiddle yards would IMHO work well with full length trains, where only the leading 2 vehicles would be visible on the platform until the train departed.

 

On its own it's a DMU terminus plank with a few light loco moves etc, but could become a through layout with full length trains that pass through, the entire consist not being fully visible.

[Ravenser]

Look at how those trains are dwarfed by the platforms. I guess Lincoln St Marks might just fit in 10' then.

 

 

 

The platforms at Lincoln St Marks would take an HST power car and 3 x Mk3 . No more . I used the Humber-Lincs Executive enough times in the 1980s to be familiar with the cry - "We will shortly be approaching Lincoln St Marks .Passengers for Lincoln St Marks should move forward to the front 3 coaches. The front 3 coaches only will be on the platform at Lincoln St Marks .  Lincoln St Marks will be the next station stop"  (Market Rasen the same. Grimsby Town 6 cars only. Lincoln Central similar)

 

Skegness has vast long platforms - but other Lincolnshire stations are quite constricted

 

This station can be readily and credibly represented with a 4' long platform . 2 x 2 car DMUs (short underframe units like 101s, 105s, 108s) come to approximately 3'3" . Plenty of room to fit in the platform - and a near scale-length  platform. And in terms of operational interest you can join/split pairs of DMUs using consisting (Nottingham services terminated at St Marks 

 

What I find striking here is that it is D+E modellers who are denying that compact modern image layouts are possibie, even in the face of multiple prototype examples .  There are an awful lot of claasses of 2 car unit - Classes 141-144 , Classes 150-159, 170, most Modernisation Plan units....

 

 

Were all those 2 car Pacers I travelled on in W Yorks in the 1980s an illusion ? 

[George Woodcock]

Hello

 

     An interesting thread which I have found enlightening. As my name was mentioned I thought I would throw in my two pennorth. I have been building  exhibition layouts now for about twenty years; I don't play trains at home. My first layout Falwoth was 18ft long and based on Lapford on the North Devon line in the 1980s. The next was Pensbridge, a four foot shunting layout with a DMU service based on two locations in the West Midlands followed by my only truly fictional layout Llwydd Town which started out as a six foot half station and was then extended to twelve feet with all the station; this was set in the North Wales border area in 1991 with traffic based on the area at that time. Next came Brixworth Station, a might have been layout based on a station close to where I was born which closed many  years ago. I dragged it kicking and screaming into the twentieth century. The layout had no points, was four feet long and featured DMU services  and through freight services some of which were longer than the layout; there was also timber traffic to the old yard. All these services could have run if the line had stayed open. Next came Georgemas Junction which is as you all know a real place set in the period 1997 to 2004 which features freight workings and a DMU service which I am sure some of you saw at Glasgow recently. That was my last solo layout; the next three, Towcester, Fenchurch St Peter and our latest project Framplington are joint efforts with my good friends John Norton and Richard Coleman. All of them are real places though two have had name changes due to alterations. Towcester is another might have been layout while the other two are set in locations just prior to closure. The reason for this tedious list is to show that all things are possible and that there are lots of locations in this country that can be modelled in the D&E era and still be interesting to build and operate and interest viewers. Though I am now 70 and remember steam trains very clearly have travelled on them many times when young, I never had any interest in them and was never a train spotter. When I developed an interest in railway in  my thirties and then moved onto modelling diesels were what I saw then and remembered. I had travelled all over the country in my teens and twenties as a way of exploring it and had no interest in the trains I travelled on though I did take a few pictures which came in handy later. Over the years I have had a couple of rules regarding layouts; keep it simple and never build a layout set in the same area twice. The latter I have now broken as Fenchurch St Peter and Framplington are both set in East Anglia though a long way apart. All of these layouts have appeared in magazines, some as many as three times. I have never had to  send an unsolicited article to any-one, they have always asked me. I have also written a fair few articles on rolling stock, building construction and layout  ideas over the years. I don't know whether they are any good but people seem to like them. The term modern image has had it's time in my opinion; as has been noted in earlier posts D&E has been around for an awful long time and changes constantly so D&E seems a much more accurate title. Modelling magazine can only print what they receive from readers though a couple of the titles use in-house modellers as well. So for those who want more D&E content build the layouts and write the articles. Also if you are into D&E join DEMU as my old mate Clive Mortimore has already said and come to Show-case in Burton on June 2/3rd.  Sorry for the tedious ramble; I will stop now. 

[Phil Bullock]

IMHO best not to put things in to watertight boxes

 

Going back to the OP - straight from kettles to BR Blue ignores that for 2-3 years a lot of locos still carried green - or maroon if they were proper ones!

 

Phil

[Joseph_Pestell]

I went to the Caistor show in November and did not have a large all steam layout, in fact it was mainly D&E and most of them good layouts of a variety of types.

 

Doncaster show had a good mix of diesel and steam layouts, many I have never seen in the press or at other shows. There was a wonderful D&E 2mm finescale Minories layout Hallam Town. A great model of Shirebrook, a prototype station, OK it has a loco depot on it but there was one at the real location.

 

D&E modellers are not all TMD noisy planks.

 

I have yet to see a steam based layout of a set of carriage sidings with a wealth of carriage types that ran before the onslaught of DMUs and Mk1 coaches.

Camden Bank.

[Clive Mortimore]

Camden Bank.

Hi Joseph

 

I found Camden Shed layout, could you provide a link to Camden Bank?

Edited March 6, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Jim Martin]

Isn't Camden Bank a big P4 layout? If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's been in MRJ a few times.

 

Jim

[Steamport Southport]

I have been several times - it often seems to rain on me when there!

I like to see good diesel and electric trainsets (and steam ones too!) I just dont really like the term, thats all. Im all D and no E really

 

I cant see whats wrong with using a really simple yet descriptive  term like "Based in Lincolnshire in 1970s" 

 

That could be anything though.

 

It could be a model of the Cleethorpes Coast Light Railway.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleethorpes_Coast_Light_Railway

 

 

 

Jason

[Ravenser]

That could be anything though.

 

It could be a model of the Cleethorpes Coast Light Railway.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleethorpes_Coast_Light_Railway

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

Or indeed this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincolnshire_Coast_Light_Railway

 

(Bachmann are doing some of the stock RTR)

 

or this 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorne_and_Hatfield_Moors

 

I only discovered this a few weeks ago when trying to check what 3' gauge there actually was in England. Extensive systems of 3' gauge lines in North Lincolnshire , with diesel locomotive haulage from 1959 to final closure in 2006. Growing up in Lincolnshire in the 1970s as a student in the mid 1980s I was completely unaware of any of it. Lincolnshire is a county not traditionally associated with narrow gauge , but with peat railways and the 2' gauge potato railways there seems to have been a lot of them. (And none of them steam traction) . There must be some modelling potential here - track available from Peco

 

I think they will be burning me at the stake in front of Burton Town Hall after this.... 

[Dagworth]

I think they will be burning me at the stake in front of Burton Town Hall after this.... 

Are you a Witch?

 

 

Andi

[Phil Bullock]

Are you a Witch?

 

 

Andi

 

Who are you that is so wise in the ways of science?

 

Phil