RTR vs Kits... Economics, Variety and Quality: a discussion.

[sem34090]

I am in a club.

 

Unfortunately anything worth having always seems to be snaffled by the chairman.

[chris p bacon]

For anyone still doubting 3D printing, look in latest copy of Continental Modeller where there is an article about building a French Crampton loco in HO, which has a 3D printed body. Not sure how much it costs, but they can supply chassis either unbuilt or built. Those who could build a complex kit would probably say they could do similar from a kit, but for everyone who could not, then add in the cost of a professionl model builder, and then talk about economics.

 

 

A professional model maker......that's not really 'like for like' It's quite likely that a professional would far surpass anything available in 3D.

 

I doubt the model you've quoted is 'cheap' either if it's available built or unbuilt, I also doubt it's in WSF. ( Unable to check as I don't get/read Continental modeller)

[Guy Rixon]

He now also 3D prints some of his own wagon bodies using (I believe) a SLS printer. On his his website the LNWR D2 and D3 wagons shows visible evidence of the print process on the wagon sides, but whether this is still apparent under a coat of mat grey paint I don't know.

 

http://mousa.biz/fourmm/wagons/lnwr_wagons4.html

 

The LNWR D1 wagon kits a bought when introduced were resin cast from 3D prints. These has a rough surface finish compared to the comparable Ratio kit, although this was partially masked by matt paint and isn't noticeable from layout viewing distance.

 

I built his D2 kit and am satisfied with the result. See my thread on LNWR wagons in P4 on this forum. The majority of the surface marks disappeared under a thin coat of Halford's primer (not the filler primer) and an airbrushed top-coat; they did not need sanding. Some of the marks were deep gouges on the flat surfaces. These I had to fill and then to sand flat the filler. This is not  too hard on a wagon side, but it significantly increases the very-short time to build each kit: from perhaps 2 hours to 3 hours work, with extra elapsed time for the filler to harden.

 

I also have some of his D4 kits which I have not yet built due to lack of time. In these, the printing is perhaps not quite so good, or rather the defects are a different kind that may be harder to fettle. We shall see. 

[JSpencer]

Nice work on the tanks.

 

That Jinty chassis caused me doubts about the O1 resin kit.  What RTR chassis did you use?

 

Thanks.

 

I used a Hornby J15 chassis (I might get £20-£30 for the loco and tender bodies of the J15 eventually to bring the final cost down). The boiler bottom is a bit too low however so the result is OK but not where I'd like it to be. Maybe and Oxford Dean would be better (they were not around when I started).

 

I have a thread here covering the construction - my updates though are less frequent than an RTR maker!

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80660-which-secr-o1-kit/

 

Edit: BTW just realised the turret in the M36 on the forth photo was something I scratch built as Armourfast had not announced their M36 at the time. This was done by making a master then covering in latex and casting from resin. A bit rough and ready but shows what can be done with stuff from an artists shop.

Edited March 20, 2018 by JSpencer

[Clive Mortimore]

Then why didn't you get out the plasic sheet and a suitably sized tube and spend a few evenings creating one? You'd have got something for even less money (!) and it probably would have looked better. You could have 3D printed the details of you wanted or oculdn;t find them elsewhere.

 

I really don't get the obsession over 3D printing loco bodies. The result is generally pretty poor (especially in materials that make it cheap) and would seem to be a backwards step from more traditional methods. I'm not convinced that 3D printing in it's current form can get a lot better, except perhaps DLP printing and then only really if they find a way to animate it (think film rather than a slide show). It all strikes me a bit as betamax technology. The prints Modelu can do are very good (though in certain situations still need 'finishing') but it's only really suited to small detailing parts in 4mm.

 

With the incresing furvour surronding ever detail of incresingly good RTR relases I find it odd that people would accept something that is obviously a massive step down in quality.

 

Justin

Hi Justin

 

Making your own?

 

 

It will never catch on.

[sem34090]

I need to stock up on plasticard, it would seem, plus chassis. And perhaps a few bodies too...

[ianLMS]

R-T-R vs R-T-R bashing vs Kit vs Scratchbuilt vs DC vs DCC vs Resin vs 3-D vs etched vs laser vs card vs styrene vs electronics vs computerized vs laptop vs tablet vs raspberry vs scenics vs countryside vs townscape vs steam vs diesel vs electric vs real steam.............The list of comparisons and variables and personal choices in this hobby is endless and one of the reasons why I love it. You model what you want, in any shape and form that you want, within the budget of what you can afford and have the skill/time to accomplish, and I envy those that are brave or confident enough to try a go at anything and make a good job of it. 

 

No option is better or worse than the other, nor right or wrong, or neccesarily more expensive than another, and all require skill of some degree and a budget of sorts as nothing in this world is completely free. As said before, people enjoy all different aspects of this hobby, just the same as it is for any other hobby. Fishing has multiple disciplines, motorsport has multiple disciplines, golfing - not really sure about that one but you get my drift. Love it or leave it, but most importantly, enjoy it. 

 

Personally, I am in constant awe of modellors who can build kits, even more of those that can scratchbuild and one day, i hope to progress from R-T-R bashing to building good loco kits (just started on Parkside Dundas wagons). Like Sem though, I am worried about spending a lot of money on a kit, plus wheels, motor etc only to find its beyond my ability, or I have the wrong gears, wheels or motors, or do a bad paint job etc but I also understand that there is no money in manufacturing cheaper "starter" kits which may be inferior in detail or quality to expensive kits or R-T-R. I recently bashed an Airfix 4F - cheap loco, but with the detailing kits, it ended up costing as much as a Bachmann/Hornby version - however, what I couldnt put a price on was the enjoyment, skills I learnt and sense of achievement. I am proud of what I did, regadless of whether or not it will hold up against scrutiny by experts, or be seen as an accomplishment by more talented individuals. Its mine, I like it, and when I go, I am sure it will probably end up in the bin or the cheap tub on the end of a stall at a show somewhere for £1.00!

 

I am also seeking that ellusive Ebay bargain of an LMS loco kit, complete with wheels and motor for me to cut my teeth on. I then will need to find out what tools I will need to make the job better/easier, and learn how to airbrush properly. All skills/tools that I can learn/purchase over time, and with patience, spare cash and courage, i might get there. So, if anyone is thinking of developing/making a cheap starter kit for an LMS loco, or has a cheap complete kit for sale, i might well be tempted! 

[jjnewitt]

Making your own?

 

Yup:

Rumney Models

Workbench

 

Generally not plasitcard though as I personally prefer creating things in other materials.

 

Justin

[alfsboy]

Bill Bedford's approach the 3D Printing is to use the technique for the first ie prototype and then resin cast the production run. This seems to work very well, but it does require more commitment from the kit developer than only doing the 3D design work.

This what Rapid Prototyping was designed for  and has been since the early nineties .Still havnt seen any 3d print acceptable to me .

[hayfield]

R-T-R vs R-T-R bashing vs Kit vs Scratchbuilt vs DC vs DCC vs Resin vs 3-D vs etched vs laser vs card vs styrene vs electronics vs computerized vs laptop vs tablet vs raspberry vs scenics vs countryside vs townscape vs steam vs diesel vs electric vs real steam.............The list of comparisons and variables and personal choices in this hobby is endless and one of the reasons why I love it. You model what you want, in any shape and form that you want, within the budget of what you can afford and have the skill/time to accomplish, and I envy those that are brave or confident enough to try a go at anything and make a good job of it. 

 

No option is better or worse than the other, nor right or wrong, or neccesarily more expensive than another, and all require skill of some degree and a budget of sorts as nothing in this world is completely free. As said before, people enjoy all different aspects of this hobby, just the same as it is for any other hobby. Fishing has multiple disciplines, motorsport has multiple disciplines, golfing - not really sure about that one but you get my drift. Love it or leave it, but most importantly, enjoy it. 

 

Personally, I am in constant awe of modellors who can build kits, even more of those that can scratchbuild and one day, i hope to progress from R-T-R bashing to building good loco kits (just started on Parkside Dundas wagons). Like Sem though, I am worried about spending a lot of money on a kit, plus wheels, motor etc only to find its beyond my ability, or I have the wrong gears, wheels or motors, or do a bad paint job etc but I also understand that there is no money in manufacturing cheaper "starter" kits which may be inferior in detail or quality to expensive kits or R-T-R. I recently bashed an Airfix 4F - cheap loco, but with the detailing kits, it ended up costing as much as a Bachmann/Hornby version - however, what I couldnt put a price on was the enjoyment, skills I learnt and sense of achievement. I am proud of what I did, regadless of whether or not it will hold up against scrutiny by experts, or be seen as an accomplishment by more talented individuals. Its mine, I like it, and when I go, I am sure it will probably end up in the bin or the cheap tub on the end of a stall at a show somewhere for £1.00!

 

I am also seeking that ellusive Ebay bargain of an LMS loco kit, complete with wheels and motor for me to cut my teeth on. I then will need to find out what tools I will need to make the job better/easier, and learn how to airbrush properly. All skills/tools that I can learn/purchase over time, and with patience, spare cash and courage, i might get there. So, if anyone is thinking of developing/making a cheap starter kit for an LMS loco, or has a cheap complete kit for sale, i might well be tempted! 

 

 

Ian

 

You are half way there, buying from eBay or other areas is a case of watch and wait, I only buy a fraction of what I watch, sometimes becomes a bit frustrating, then all of a sudden there is a glut.

 

I have for years hankered after a K's LSWR/SR Adams Radial tank loco, bought one off eBay for £38 which had been rewheeled with Markit wheels (£40) and had a replacement motor (£20), just a case of keep looking, its been well painted but in BR era which means at least re-lettering, also I will up grade the motor mount to a High Level gearbox. patience and watching thats the secret 

[ianLMS]

I will be keeping an eye out. I have seen lots of old kits, just not sure what is a good kit to begin with. Wills, Keyser, SE, Jidenco, GEM, Judith Edge appear but I have no idea on how good these are or how easy they are to put together, or at my stage in my modelling career, does it really matter as long as its cheap?

 

Is there an easy reference guide for what motor/gearbox goes with a type of loco as i see this as being an expensive mistake to make - same as the wheels. I assume the instructions would have recomendations for what I would need? 

 

If there is a thread on RMWeb that covers this, more than happy to be directed that way.

 

Ian

Edited March 20, 2018 by ianLMS

[johnarcher]

Basically - while there is a market for top end Brass/white metal kits, there is also a market for cheaper, easier kits for newcomers. I don't think this should be discouraged.

 

People starting with cheaper kits will - as they get older - doubtlessly move to more expensive detailed Brass ones.

 

 

I agree they are different markets . I'm not so sure as people get older they will move to Brass. I think we have two different genres here . Plastic(or 3D printing) is an extension of the basic RTR market giving people the ability to get locomotives not available RTR. But this is a whole different level to Brass and Whitemetal kits which will remain the preserve of those that have ability and means to construct. Quite separate markets

Different markets maybe (though not wholly, some RTR users surely also make kits) - still that doesn't mean that at least some people can't move from one to the other. After all those with the abilities in the second group were probably once in the first - abilities develop, and the basic kits can be a stage in that as well as an end in themselves.

As for means, no doubt some in the first group have the means to buy kits if they wish (or when they wish), and one can always choose to make the kind of model that needs 2 (good kit) locomotives rather than 5 or more cheaper ones, if means are tighter and making is of interest in itself.

[Steamport Southport]

I will be keeping an eye out. I have seen lots of old kits, just not sure what is a good kit to begin with. Wills, Keyser, SE, Jidenco, GEM, Judith Edge appear but I have no idea on how good these are or how easy they are to put together, or at my stage in my modelling career, does it really matter as long as its cheap?

 

Is there an easy reference guide for what motor/gearbox goes with a type of loco as i see this as being an expensive mistake to make - same as the wheels. I assume the instructions would have recomendations for what I would need? 

 

If there is a thread on RMWeb that covers this, more than happy to be directed that way.

 

Ian

 

With quite a lot of the older kits then I think you would want to replace the chassis anyway. Plenty available that will fit. But even so I've built a few such as K's kits and just used the provided chassis and wheels/motor and got satisfactory results. Wheels are normally Romford/Markits or Alan Gibson based on which you prefer. Motors can be a bit of a problem since the imminent demise of Mashima. However sometimes you can get lucky and get a kit that has all of them included.

 

 

Basic guide to the ones you have mentioned.

 

Judith Edge are modern state of the art kits. Etched brass with fantastic chassis and gear boxes. I'm surprised if many of those appear on the second hand market.

 

Keyser Kits are usually complete with wheels/motor/etc. Great place to start.

 

Wills/SEF are the same. Wills are usually the older versions and are often designed to fit on RTR chassis or a whitemetal one. The SEF are usually a slightly updated version and sometimes come with an etched chassis.

 

GEM are usually body kits or the later versions have an etched chassis included. Again great for beginners, if you can get one with the etched chassis then it's a bonus.

 

Jidenco/Falcon. Etched brass and a bit difficult to build. You can make a decent model out of them, but unless it was a specific prototype you want then I wouldn't bother, especially not as a beginner.

 

However most of the above will fit on chassis kits made by others such as Comet and Alan Gibson.

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

I will be keeping an eye out. I have seen lots of old kits, just not sure what is a good kit to begin with. Wills, Keyser, SE, Jidenco, GEM, Judith Edge appear but I have no idea on how good these are or how easy they are to put together, or at my stage in my modelling career, does it really matter as long as its cheap?

 

Is there an easy reference guide for what motor/gearbox goes with a type of loco as i see this as being an expensive mistake to make - same as the wheels. I assume the instructions would have recomendations for what I would need? 

 

If there is a thread on RMWeb that covers this, more than happy to be directed that way.

 

Ian

 

 

Ian

 

As a rule of thumb, the likes of K's, Wills, GEM, Nucast Southeastern finecast are good standard whitemetal kits. Keep away from Jedinco, poorly designed and difficult to put together

 

To start off with go for a small tank loco without any valve gear. Wills used to go on RTR chassis, parts are still available from Southeastern finecast as are etched chassis. Some Keyser kits are fine, especially if the wheels have been changed (look for Romford wheels which are easy to spot as have brass nuts on the axles). Happy to answer PM's if you send links

[JSpencer]

Different markets maybe (though not wholly, some RTR users surely also make kits) - still that doesn't mean that at least some people can't move from one to the other. After all those with the abilities in the second group were probably once in the first - abilities develop, and the basic kits can be a stage in that as well as an end in themselves.

As for means, no doubt some in the first group have the means to buy kits if they wish (or when they wish), and one can always choose to make the kind of model that needs 2 (good kit) locomotives rather than 5 or more cheaper ones, if means are tighter and making is of interest in itself.

 

If I think of myself, my first interest in kits was to fill in the famous big names : Turbomotive, W1, Cock O'the North (now in RTR 20 years later) and so on.....

 

Of course I grew up on the tail end of knowing people who love pre-nationlisation (many would say back then "you won't get me buying a box on wheels") and those running on BR metals (it was BR back then not Network Rail too) were also painted in pre-nationlisation colours too. So I am not able to know if the new generation are - in general - into getting those famous prototypes or if they have shifted to different areas.

 

I do remember that if someone had done a resin kit on a modified A4 chassis with an A4 tender, I would have been happy with that as W1 - instead of the vastly superior South Eastern kit I actually built that I hardly use as it a) does not really fit with what I do now and b) needs 4ft radius curves.

Once you clear the fashion items (a lot of which are increasingly covered by RTR now), it is then you start to think about something really special for you. I think the objective for a beginner is not to build several cheap and easy models, just one or 2 is suffice before going for something more sophisticated.

 

Ultimately, I think we all like things that are unique, I'm sure many RTR items (like a Garrett, APT-E etc) are brought in search of that goal - except RTR is never really unique.

 

But Kits really do provide that "individualism".

[coachmann]

Ian

 

As a rule of thumb, the likes of K's, Wills, GEM, Nucast Southeastern finecast are good standard whitemetal kits. Keep away from Jedinco, poorly designed and difficult to put together.

Including K's loco kits in the 'good whitemetal kits' category is definitely a new one on me and I suspect a lot of my generation. 

 

I was inundated with K's loco kits that clients wanted building when I first went into business, and very soon realised why!  I charged clients for replacement Romford driving wheels, XO4 motor and gearset before warming up the iron.

Edited March 20, 2018 by coachmann

[Steamport Southport]

Ian

 

As a rule of thumb, the likes of K's, Wills, GEM, Nucast Southeastern finecast are good standard whitemetal kits. Keep away from Jedinco, poorly designed and difficult to put together

 

To start off with go for a small tank loco without any valve gear. Wills used to go on RTR chassis, parts are still available from Southeastern finecast as are etched chassis. Some Keyser kits are fine, especially if the wheels have been changed (look for Romford wheels which are easy to spot as have brass nuts on the axles). Happy to answer PM's if you send links

 

I would avoid the small tank engine route. Too much faffing about trying to fit things in. Worst advice used to be the small K's 0-4-0Ts, they were a nightmare to build and get to run properly.

 

Better idea is to go for something that has plenty of room to fit everything such as motor/etc. in. I reckon something like an 0-6-0 as a minimum. 

 

 

Also start with something you want/need. That way you will have the impetus to finish it.

 

 

 

Jason

[Clive Mortimore]

Yup:

Rumney Models

Workbench

 

Generally not plasitcard though as I personally prefer creating things in other materials.

 

Justin

Hi Justin

 

Plastic card is wonderful

[Legend]

There is nothing difficult in building simple whitemetal or brass kits other than you need an odd additional tool, which has many other uses on the layout, some flux and a couple of different types of solder, all of which last for ages

 

I am just about to start to solder together a cheap and simple 009 tram kit. £10 and needs 4 solder joints and can be built if required with resin cored solder used for wiring.

 

I have a few 4 mm scale whitemetal wagons in the to be built pile, cost less than a fiver. Can be glued or soldered

 

Neither require many tools or special skills to build

I reckon soldering is reasonably specialist and something that puts most folk off. It might be I don't have the tools , only having a basic soldering bolt , but I know I struggle with soldering wires together and the odd repair to a loco motor where a wire has come loose.

 

I know you say its just a matter of practice but actually there is a skill there too.

 

I maintain that anything that involves soldering will be a major turn off to most folks

[ianLMS]

I would avoid the small tank engine route. Too much faffing about trying to fit things in. Worst advice used to be the small K's 0-4-0Ts, they were a nightmare to build and get to run properly.

 

Better idea is to go for something that has plenty of room to fit everything such as motor/etc. in. I reckon something like an 0-6-0 as a minimum. 

 

 

Also start with something you want/need. That way you will have the impetus to finish it.

 

 

 

Jason

Thank you all for the advice and will keep this in mind. I would have gone for a Webb coal tank, but thats now R-T-R as well. Not many LMS loco's not already R-T-R though, so I might still go for a Coal Tank or Jinty just to see what I can do. 

[Jeff Smith]

I will be keeping an eye out. I have seen lots of old kits, just not sure what is a good kit to begin with. Wills, Keyser, SE, Jidenco, GEM, Judith Edge appear but I have no idea on how good these are or how easy they are to put together, or at my stage in my modelling career, does it really matter as long as its cheap?

 

Is there an easy reference guide for what motor/gearbox goes with a type of loco as i see this as being an expensive mistake to make - same as the wheels. I assume the instructions would have recomendations for what I would need? 

 

If there is a thread on RMWeb that covers this, more than happy to be directed that way.

 

Ian

Ian - I have been a happy customer of Branchlines over the years.  Branchlines does not have a web site but an email to Brian Osborne at sales@branchlines.com or a call to 01373 822231 will get you some catalogues.  Brian took over the business some years ago from the original owner who designed many of the parts and kits.  Branchlines specialises in motors and gearboxes and can give advice on possible combinations.  It also offers complete kits in O-16.5, 009 and OO.  Prices are reasonable considering the content and clear instructions, around the 100 pound range, and substitutions can be made such as P4 wheels.  Complete kits use Dapol and other plastic bodies and some white metal from Peco and Gem, I think there are some etched ones as well.  Brian has been able to include other manufacturer's items, eg from Gibson, Markits, etc. in orders which makes it one stop shopping - great for me being in the USA.

 

Regarding wheels if you download the Gibson catalogue it lists all the wheel sizes and what they are suitable for, possibly the Markits site does as well but they do not do P4 so I don't generally buy them except via-Branchlines for O-16.5.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Jeff Smith

[jjnewitt]

Plastic card is wonderful

 

Hi Clive,

 

Ahh but so is etched brass!

 

 

I like your tank wagons, especially the wing plate mounted one.

 

If people are going to produce 3D printed items that are going to need a lot of 'finishing' then why aren't they done in a way that makes it easy to finish them, ie in bits and without any detail to them? If you're going to have to do a lot of priming and sanding then perhaps a loco body should actually come as a kit with seperate footplate, smokebox/boiler/firebox, cab, tanks, etc. This would push the price up as there is a setting up cost per item to take into account but would make the life of the builder a lot easier. Part of the art of desiging kits to to make them as user friendly as possible within the market at which they're aimed.

 

Justin

[johnarcher]

I reckon soldering is reasonably specialist and something that puts most folk off. It might be I don't have the tools , only having a basic soldering bolt , but I know I struggle with soldering wires together and the odd repair to a loco motor where a wire has come loose.

 

I know you say its just a matter of practice but actually there is a skill there too.

 

I maintain that anything that involves soldering will be a major turn off to most folks

To an extent, yes, it is a skill, but isn't practice exactly how one learns new skills?

 

If soldering is a major turn off to many (most?!) people, it is surely because it is often talked of as some esoteric skill, specialist as you say.

 

If anyone doesn't want, can't be bothered, to acquire that skill that's a choice anyone has every right to make, of course.

However I do query this off-putting way of talking about it - I have no doubt there are many people out there who don't solder, but could learn with a few hours' practice, and have all sorts of new possibilities available to them, but might be deterred by descriptions of this mysterious skill as so difficult.

Edited March 20, 2018 by johnarcher

[Andy Hayter]

A professional model maker......that's not really 'like for like' It's quite likely that a professional would far surpass anything available in 3D.

 

 

 

 

 

In terms of quality I would agree wholeheartedly based on todays offerings from 3D printing.  But surely the point is that if a modeller wants/needs an XYZ which is not available as rtr.  His choices are scratch build, kit or 3D print and if as is suggested the modeller does not believe he has the skills to kit/scratch-build then his choices are 3D or get a professional builder to build him one.  So while on quality it is not a like for like comparison, it is on the basis of availability.  

[coachmann]

These photos were taken by George Mellor in the late 1960's or early 70's, and show one of my early adventures in soldering. It was a GEM MR Compound kit but I built it in BR condition with shorter boiler mountings and a modified Tender. One can see the kits was stretched to fit the Triang 10ft wheelbase...

 

GEM did Stephen Pool's casting at the time and so I assume (it is a long time ago) I built this ex.GER 2-4-2T kit for display and box lid picture from the first castings. Definitely no Stephen Poole 'funny wheels' on this model though....

Edited March 20, 2018 by coachmann