Hornby dublo

[Il Grifone]

If only mine were that good!

[cypherman]

15 hours ago, Wolseley said:

A few of my repaints:

 

 

 

 

Hi Wolseley. What is the tender behind the first engine. I think it is the City of Liecester. Eyes not as good as they used to be....

[Wolseley]

5 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi Wolseley. What is the tender behind the first engine. I think it is the City of Liecester. Eyes not as good as they used to be....

 

The tender is a streamlined Coronation tender from a Tri-ang -Hornby model, mounted on a Dublo (Montrose or Atholl - I can't remember which) tender chassis.

 

The City of Leicester was one of a group that were authorised to be built as streamliners with the tenders being built first and then the locomotives.  By the time work started on the locomotives, wartime shortages were beginning to bite and the decision to streamline them was reversed and they were built non-streamlined instead.  However, by then, the streamlined tenders had been finished, so they ran as non-streamlined engines with streamlined tenders for a few years, until the tenders were modified.  There is a photograph of City of Leicester and one other engine running in this guise in David Jenkinson's Profile of the Duchesses.

[Wolseley]

Another repaint, although this one is still a work in progress, not all the lining having been finished yet.  The Duchess of Sutherland was wearing pre-war LMS crimson lake when it was fitted with smoke deflectors and appeared in traffic afterwards still wearing pre-war colours.  It is believed to be the only member of the class to have worn pre-war livery when fitted with smoke deflectors and there is a photograph of it showing this unique combination of characteristics in Profile of the Duchesses.  So here is my version - a repainted Duchess of Montrose with Fox nameplates and lettering.  On shed you may also notice a Dublo A4 (Commonwealth of Australia) in BR express blue and, on a neighbouring siding, a BR black diesel shunter.

 

[Pak75]

Hi

Very nice, Jim!

Perhaps you would consider giving members a Hornby Dublo repainting and lining tutorial?

Most Dublo engines that can be acquired today show signs of age and wear and it would be great to be able to restore them to their original glory.

Cheers

[SuperD]

Hi, I'm reasonably new to the hobby (covid) but I've built a couple of locos on Comet chassis.  I've recently acquired a HD rolling chassis.  I don't know which loco was on it, but it's a 3 rail chassis.  I remember the pulling power of these and would like to run it, but will have to convert.

The wheels are pretty horrible anyway and I would need/like to fit Romfords to resolve the insulation problem.  As I say. I'm not very experienced and the valve gear seems to be secured by some sort of pin. How would I remove it?  Is this doable in such a way as to save and re use the valve gear?   Any advice would be appreciated.

[Il Grifone]

It depends on the age of the chassis.

Initially the pins were rather puny and just pull out. Later (1954) they beefed up the crank pins and still later the pins were riveted over on the wheel back. To remove the gear in this latter case, it is necessary to push the pins in tight so this can be removed (file or razor saw). The pin can then be withdrawn.

The chassis will be either a Pacific (A4 or Duchess/City) or the 2-6-4T. (The 8F and West Country are obvious and the other chassis* do not have valve gear. The A4 chassis is shorter than the Duchess** and has incomplete valve gear.

*  0-6-2T and Castle.

** A Duchess (Montrose or Atholl) will have cast crossheads, whereas a City (Liverpool) will have pressed metal crossheads. An A4 will be Sir Nigel (red wheels) or Silver King or Mallard (black wheels).

 

These should fit (the ones I ordered some time ago did) the later wheels with beefed up crank pins:

https://www.ebay.co.uk

Other spares are available from this seller (usual disclaimer) including new crank and valve gear pins. Prices are not very Grifone friendly however.

 

N.B.

A 3 rail chassis with nickel plated wheel tyres (and plastic bogie/pony wheels) is quite valuable and best left alone. The same applies to early chassis with the horseshoe magnet.

The haulage power is due to the weight of the cast body and will be compromised by a plastic or sheet metal body.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Il Grifone

[SuperD]

Hi Grifone,  thank you very much for the in depth reply.  For me, very informative.  There are no tyres on it, the wheels seem to made from some "Mazac" type material.  The crosshead, I think, is cast and the cylinders are black with orange lining, so I assume "Montrose".  It is the "horseshoe" magnet and seems to fit the 39mm coarse thread armature.

 

Regards

[Il Grifone]

The wheels are indeed zinc alloy (AFAIK Meccano Ltd. used to brew their own). The chassis must be a Montrose with black cylinders (assuming original finish), but these all had the three piece magnet assembly (AlNiCo magnet  and two pole pieces). A coarse thread armature would indicate a 1953/4 manufactured example. These have the puny crank pins, gloss paintwork and go like a bat out of hell.... (The test specification is 5 circuits of a standard 'oval' (8 curved rails and two straights - about 10 feet) in 25 seconds pulling 4 coaches, but this refers to the later finer gears (18:1 rather than 15:1 ratio IIRC).

 

I forgot to mention that as well as thin crank pins (very subject to wear - presumably why they were beefed up) the ends of the axles (and thus hole in the wheel) are much smaller on the early wheels. The change was contemporary with the advent of FM radio and ITV in VHF Bands II and III respectively, so the suppressor components changed to reflect this from a (usually grotty) wax coated paper shunt capacitor of 0.1μF to a shunt 500 pF ceramic capacitor and a series choke (unknown value).

[Pak75]

Hi there

I spent a happy hour or so going through 50 HD wagons i have acquired in last six months, giving them a Dodds service and performing 1:30 incline glide test. I seem to have wagons from every development phase of Hornby Dublo from D1 tinplate and metal wheels to SD with plastic wheels, plus some odds which look like they have been renovated at some time.

I modified the glide test by gently pushing wagon uphill to see if it would then come back downhill without me having to touch it.

After a bit of TLC and oiling, nearly all HD wagons with metal wheels passed the test. However most of the plastic wheeled wagons did not, stopping on the incline. This leads me to two qsns:

1. Is 1:30 test only applicable for HD wagons with metal wheels,

2. How do i improve performance of plastic wheeled wagons?

 

Thanks in advance

 

[locomad2]

The 1:30 test I think came original from Meccano, I certainly remember reading it in a Meccano Magazine when I was young.

 

Yes your right metal axles with a bit of oil on perform the best, the 1:30 test applies to both starting and rolling resistance most of my metal axle stock passes the test.

 

Plastic wheels are generally more of a problem, used stock tend to collect "crud" and bits of hair round the axle. New or "mint" stock often are very stiff, I used to use a little light oil, but now use silicone grease or even red rubber grease again only a dab.

 

Long trains say over 40 wagons often won't start if all the coupling are under tension so back up the train till the guard van starts to move, this technique was once used by real trains, then try restarting This over coming starting resistance.

 

Did once get a Triang Hornby early version 9F to pull 100 standard Hornby dublo wagons, course all the stock passed the 1:30 test, all in excellent condition plus track flat, large curves, plenty of transformer power, did record briefly 2amps. In attempt to achieve this pulled apart or broke at least 6 coupling!

 

[LMS2968]

4 hours ago, locomad2 said:

Long trains say over 40 wagons often won't start if all the coupling are under tension so back up the train till the guard van starts to move, this technique was once used by real trains, then try restarting This over coming starting resistance.

Yes and no. You'd set back slightly to ease the couplings at the leading end, wind into forward gear and apply some steam. If you set back so the couplings were slack all the way back to the brake van and then gave it plenty of steam, you'd probably be going light engine with broken couplings and even ripped out headstocks.

 

Perfectly acceptable for Hornby Dublo, though!

[BernardTPM]

Perhaps a little graphite powder on the plastic axles might help.

[locomad2]

5 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

 

 

Perfectly acceptable for Hornby Dublo, though!

 

 

Not quite often find long trains are easy to pull not so easy to back.

 

Main problem is the coupling they jam and stock derails, you also get buffer lock. Tension lock are terrible hence I prefer peco or HD, try reversing 9 triang tristrol wagons almost impossible, replace with Peco and it works.

 

Back to wheels, this I find is the best of both worlds, HD 3rail wheels converted to 2 rail

 

I've been doing this for 30 years, wheels removed, larger hole drilled, insulated brushes pressed on, plastic outer washes added and replaced. This wagon had a starting resistance of 1:36 and rolling 1:60. Almost getting close to pin point axles

 

Triang bogie, pin point wheels starting 1:30, rolling 1:55, so in theory better than

 

Rolling resistance is a handy tool as often find directly related to maximum number of wagons  a standard HD 2-6-4 2 rail can pull, if all nearly 1:30 then 30 wagons can be pulled etc etc

 

So next challenge 50 HD bogie bolsters, however converting stock takes time, I've the simple tools press jigs etc just takes time 200 odd axles

[LMS2968]

In real life, trains wouldn't run straight into a siding but would run past then set back into it. This was a lot of fun when the 8F was setting back twenty-odd wagons through several points and a reverse curve, but it worked!

[cctransuk]

4 hours ago, locomad2 said:

Main problem is the coupling they jam and stock derails, you also get buffer lock. Tension lock are terrible hence I prefer peco or HD, try reversing 9 triang tristrol wagons almost impossible, replace with Peco and it works.

 

My experience too - all my stock is fitted with Peco Simplex / Hornby Dublo couplings.

 

Reversing long trains - say ten Mk.1s or the equivalent in freight wagons - is no problem, even when the train is on a 1m. radius or through second radius turnouts.

 

Peco couplers, when set to ensure that buffer-locking cannot occur, are very reliable when reversing trains.

 

John Isherwood.

[Colin_McLeod]

16 hours ago, Pak75 said:

. How do i improve performance of plastic wheeled wagons?

 

I find the best way to improve the performance of plastic wheeled wagons is to change the wheels to metal ones.

[Pak75]

Hi

Thanks Locomad2 and others for replies. Consensus seems to be to replace plastic wheels.

This is certainly an option but i did make an effort to find SD wagons as I far prefer the higher level of detail over the tinplate wagons... so this has backfired. Most of the SD wagons have solid plastic wheels so they could be replaced, however. Only a few wagons - Saxa salt, cattle and grain wagons have spoked wheels so maybe best to leave these unless replacement available commercially?

 

I read in an earlier post in this thread that a wagon takes IIRC 8g of force to overcome friction and get it moving. Therefore 100 wagons is 800g, 0.8kg or nearly 1.8lb. Quite a load!

Edited February 12, 2022 by Pak75
Typo

[Il Grifone]

I had a late model full brake with plastic wheels, which was extremely reluctant to move, let alone run away on 1 in 30. Fitting metal wheels sorted that nonsense! My 'Castle' would haul 7 W.R coaches, but only 6 Maroon ones. Theoretically there should be no difference, so it must have been chance. (Tolerance in axle diameter or surface or even poorly stamped tinplate?)

 

Possibly the 8g was from my earlier post? I measured this figure a long time ago, but it was based on a coach (D3 LMS IIRC). In my youth, when the trains were relatively new, I found the tender locomotives would manage 5 coaches, whereas my 2-6-4T would easily haul 8 (all I had at the time - 1 LMS, 2 LNER, 2 BR(M) and 3  suburbans. The 0-6-2T managed this lot, but with a bit of a struggle. 18-20 wagons shouldn't be a problem for one however.

 

It should be possible to calculate the friction drag from the 1 in 30 criterion. It involves trigonometry so I'll leave it to someone else.... (My A level maths days are long gone!)

Recently I saw a photo of the test procedure. Apparently the vehicle was pushed up the slope and was expected to run back down again. Whether this was done on all vehicles or just samples from a batch was not stated. New they would not had the benefit of oil. I have American freight cars which fail this test despite pin-point axles. Plastic against plastic does not make for free running. A pencil twisted in the bearing helps.

 

Wrenn made spoked wheels to Dublo standards. It would be possible to substitute the Dublo underframes with Wrenn ones, dumping the tension locks in the bin where they belong  (there is a pin-point version). The prototype cattle and grain wagons had 3 hole wheels, but they did get swopped around. I've even seen wagons with a set of each!

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Pak75]

 

 

Quote

6 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I had a late model full brake with plastic wheels, which was extremely reluctant to move, let alone run away on 1 in 30. Fitting metal wheels sorted that nonsense!

 

HI

How and what did you use to fit metal wheels?

 

Have read much about pinpoint axles, bushes etc. However it appears bushes can only be incorporated into closed axle boxes of Dublo wagon metal chassis with difficulty?

 

A closer examination of two worst plastic wheeled SD wagons revealed that axles had no lateral movement at all and appeared to be jammed. Underframe was not damaged and hangers were correctly fitted so i took out suspect wheels and trimmed a little of each end of axle with knife and sandpaper. Now spinning at least as well as others. Possibly a bad moulding out of spec?

 

Hornby are selling these packs of wheelsets - though they are pinpoint axles.

 

R8218 14.1mm Disc Wheels (Pack 10) (Hornby.com)

 

These are 25mm long and also available 12.6mm diameter. Will these work in HD wagons or has anybody tried them as replacements?

 

Thanks

[locomad2]

Pin point axles, over the many decades tried various methods

 

Railway Modeler about 1963 excellent article on how to get 100 wagon trains, using pin point axles, special home made drill jig to accurately drill inside axle boxes to fit peco ? Plastic wheels. Myself tried this unfortunately peco wheels are the worse culprits for bend axles over time, HD ones also suffer but less. Result wagon wobble. You can use metal axles by making a slight V in the inner axle box to fit metal axles, you might end up with lost axles as you lift the wagon, but most of my stock stays on the layout so just carefull if removed. Those cordless dermmel type grinders are ideal tools for the job

 

Wrenn came up with plastic inners with pin point axle holes, can be made using thick plastic strip with suitable hole drilled and metal axle, have made a few using both metal and plastic wheels. Best done with a slow setting glue and test the wagon straight away slight out of alignment and again wagon wobble.

 

Now I've made a small plastic moulding injection machine going to try and add some graphite powder to scrap plastic and see if can make plastic similar to later trix coach bogies, these really are free running easy pass a 1:100 test, compared to Wrenn about 1:75.

 

I've about 20 odd HD wagons fitted with pin points axles, the weight of the base make brilliant wagons less likely to derail, easy to reverse, with less drag weaker locomotives like modern Hornby and others can pull longer trains

[Il Grifone]

Dublo rolling stock can be pin pointed using the usual brass inserts, but require shorter axles than the standard 26mm. I have done a WELTROL, but left it at that (originality and all that*). The design of the droppers does not permit a standard axle length as he amount of crank varies. This does not matter with the standard axles of course (unless they are too tight or the back to back is too wide (it varies quite considerably) and cause binding).

 

* Or just too lazy....

[Il Grifone]

On 13/02/2022 at 23:34, Pak75 said:

 

 

HI

 

 

omis.

 

Hornby are selling these packs of wheelsets - though they are pinpoint axles.

 

R8218 14.1mm Disc Wheels (Pack 10) (Hornby.com)

 

These are 25mm long and also available 12.6mm diameter. Will these work in HD wagons or has anybody tried them as replacements?

 

Thanks

 

The Hornby wheels come on 26mm axles (or at least did; I gather that the latest ones have NMRA 25.4 axles (like Bachmann)).

A more serious problem is that they are BRMSB standard and not compatible with HD pointwork.

 

In days of yore, Nucro made wheels to Dublo standards. Only disc unfortunately and nowadays very hard to find, which is a pity as they run extremely well.

 

All British proprietary wheels from about 1970 - 2000 are suitable for Dublo track, but again, usually either plastic or disc or both. As I said, Wrenn did spoked wheels (plastic centre, metal tyre).

 

The sintered iron Dublo rolling stock wheel have a horrible square profile. This is not a great problem with the round headed Dublo rails (though the alloy ones do run better), but not ideal with rails of a more prototypical section. Luckily there is plenty of slop tolerance in Dublo standards.

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Pak75]

HI Il Grifone

Thanks yr reply.

 

So if new Hornby wheels won't work, i have two alternatives:

1. Source original HD metal wheels (though these are disc not spokes)

2. Find another manufacturer

I am looking at Triang X830 plastic wheels with metal rims but am struggling to find actual dimensions. These fit British profile 1970-2000.

 

Anyone any comments on suitability of these?

 

Cheers

Edited February 15, 2022 by Pak75
Typo

[steam69]

Pak75,

Modern Hornby/Gibson/Romford wheels will fit into HD models with no modification, you do not need brass bearings or any adustment.

Just release the metal clip from the top and slide it out, the new wheel set can be placed into the one side (with clip in place) then put the other clip over axle end and wiggle the clip back into place, job done.

 

Richard