Hornby dublo

[Il Grifone]

AlNiCo was used for Dublo motors from 1949 on (i.e. post horseshoe)  (new wonder material!) and I have always assumed for Tri-ang and DC Trix. (AC Trix has a wound electromagnet and is immune from the demagnetisation problem - it has others to make up for it!)

[Halvarras]

I picked this up from a trader at a local show on setting-up day for a tenner (had to get in quick!), must be nearly 20 years ago. I don't think he realised what it was. It was unboxed and the bottom 2mm had been cut off the coupling droppers, a bit dirty but otherwise OK. I bought the Mainline 14T and 20T tank wagons in the same livery to act as converters and make up a triple set but it never happened, those two were sold on years ago and the bogie tanker sat in the loft 'awaiting disposal'. Which never happened either, as I just couldn't bring myself to part with it! So last year I fitted Hornby wheels and the old small Airfix couplings (which both involved drilling out the HD rivets to dismantle), replaced the damaged white stars and repainted the underframe as it was a bit chipped here and there. My nagging doubt is that I fear that I have defaced a relatively rare HD artefact. But I like it, so there!

 

HD did make some interesting wagons - this one has been rewheeled, new end steps fitted with etched checker plate on the platform, and a coupling change. The data panels required some careful touching-in too.

 

A little more radical here, but these are not hard to come by. Fitting the HD uppers to the Airfix/Dapol underframe is surprisingly easy, it fits a treat. Punched metal ladders (I got lazy with these and secured the lower ends by tucking them into the V hangers and opening them up behind - yes I know, not terribly elegant), nickel silver wire bracing and etched checker plate either side of the filler cap were added, as well as a strip of lead ballast. It needed a repaint (the yellowing in corners now is not apparent to the naked eye), I had to carefully paint around the ICI logo and black star but the red stripes were intended for restaurant cars and the large black numbers for a Class 58, off a dry print sheet so old I'm surprised it still worked! No problem fitting Airfix couplings to this one.

 

Why the small Airfix couplings? I selected these when putting together a wagon collection for exhibition use back in the early 90s  - I mixed and matched to get as many as possible on Airfix and Dapol underframes, including Mainline, Hornby Dublo and Wrenn (the unpainted bodies for the latter could be had for just £1 at the time - including the Class 08!) Because I removed the coupling hook at one end and used a magnetic shunter's pole to uncouple, pivoting wasn't necessary, which got around this issue on HD wagons with bespoke underframes such as the Presflos and the two ICI tankers above. On these the Airfix couplings were bolted into the HD coupling pivot holes with the supplied nuts being the perfect spacer. Sigh - I miss those days, when everything just seemed to work out.......

Edited April 23, 2022 by Halvarras
Added the note re Wrenn bodies for a quid!

[locomad2]

On 23/04/2022 at 17:55, Halvarras said:

 

 

Why the small Airfix couplings? I selected these when putting together a wagon collection for exhibition use back in the early 90s  - I mixed and matched to get as many as possible on Airfix and Dapol underframes, including Mainline, Hornby Dublo and Wrenn (the unpainted bodies for the latter could be had for just £1 at the time - including the Class 08!) Because I removed the coupling hook at one end and used a magnetic shunter's pole to uncouple, pivoting wasn't necessary, which got around this issue on HD wagons with bespoke underframes such as the Presflos and the two ICI tankers above. On these the Airfix couplings were bolted into the HD coupling pivot holes with the supplied nuts being the perfect spacer. Sigh - I miss those days, when everything just seemed to work out.......

 

 

I do understand why 30 odd years ago you picked these coupling about the same time I decided these were about the best tension lock about. Small closer fitting better than others, did airfix make a wider one ? Easy to fit in a box and fit on other stock. At the time did have some HD wagons and locos but decided not to convert them as planned to buy what I considered more realistic and newer  models.

 

Fast forward to today, as prices went up found toy fairs etc HD stock more available and a lot cheaper, so was stuck with peco/HD  coupling, also my layouts got a lot bigger so now 50 wagon trains are common. I do like shunting and discovered 50 wagon trains with peco coupling can reverse without derailments not quite so with tension lock

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Airfix Railway System started off with the narrow tension lock couplings, which I always thought were possibly inspired by the Fleischman couplings in use at that time, which are very similar to look at. I never got to put them alongside each other though.

 

When Airfix adopted the GMR, Great Model Railways, Branding, they switched to a mostly plastic version of the Tri-ang Railways MK3 (wide) tension lock couplings, but which retained the same (not NEM) clip fit system on most models.

 

Mainline (Palitoy) adopted a version of the tension lock coupling with a loop between the Tri-ang MK3, and the Airfix narrow.

 

When the Airfix models were absorbed into the Mainline system, Mainline size loop couplings were introduced, which still had the Airfix clip on system.

 

Dapol mainly adopted the Mainline size couplings, in some cases screw fitting the clip on type to some models.

 

Hornby absorbed some ex Dapol tools, and also the Mainline size clip in couplings.

Hornby also use the GMR type wide Airfix type clip in couplings on some models.

 

On some steam locomotive tenders, Hornby have used the Airfix type clip on couplings, before modifications were made to the tools to take standard NEM coupling mounts.

 

Hornby supply a coupling assembly, that fits the Airfix type (Not NEM) clip on mountings.

This is a flexible narrow tension lock coupling, of the modern type...

These fit all of the Airfix, GMR, Mainline (ex Airfix), some Dapol, and some Hornby models...

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/coupling-assemblies-pack-10-r8099

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Ruffnut Thorston
Link added. Typo. Additional information

[Lacathedrale]

I'm finally looking to get started with some vintage toy trains - if only because it's going to end up way cheaper than Lego trains for my child in the future!

 

I have basically narrowed it down to clockwork 0 gauge, or Dublo. Excusing the former for the moment, I have the blue book but other than that I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to get started. I want to have at least some broad internal consistency for locomotives and carriages i.e. LNER and BR(E) or LMS and BR(M). In this context, I specifically am after glossy locomotives and ideally tinplate/diecast items only.

 

I'm not all that worried about getting a bargain on some rare item, but I would like a few locomotives that have reasonable running qualities, a couple of rakes of carriages and enough track to put down a layout which would be appealing for more than just tail-chasing. Whether it's to end up on the dining table or around the walls of the garage is to be determined, but I have a few questions if that's OK?

1. For track, is it possible to lay out a double junction with 2x electric points and a diamond crossing?
2. Are electric points reliable? What is running like over the turnouts?
3. What is shunting like? A big part of what I want to include is station pilot working, and a goods yard - so lots of stop/start and back/forth at as low speeds as feasible (what is the lower boundary like?)
4. In general should I expect good running from well maintained (but obviously now aged) 3-rail kit?
5. How will they fare in an attached (i.e. warm, dry and sheltered) garage? Is the steel likely to tarnish?

 

EDIT: Re: point 1, I see this formation so I guess it must be OK?

 

Basically, I love the tinplate aesthetic and I'm happy with the compromises of track geometry/etc. but if a) the steel is going to suffer too much in a garage or b) the locos are better off as shelf queens compared to say, equivalent 1960's and 1970's Triang - then I may need to reassess.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[45568]

On 24/04/2022 at 00:55, Halvarras said:

 My nagging doubt is that I fear that I have defaced a relatively rare HD artefact. But I like it, so there!

 

 

 

 

 

Don't worry, they'll hang me as well for heresy!

 

 

 

The transfers for these come the the excellent range by Cambridge Custom. I also have a rake of 20 chlorine tanks fully repainted and with transfers from the same source.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Dubloseven]

1 hour ago, 45568 said:

Don't worry, they'll hang me as well for heresy!

 

 

 

The transfers for these come the the excellent range by Cambridge Custom. I also have a rake of 20 chlorine tanks fully repainted and with transfers from the same source.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

Rather than heresy I'd suggest gentle upgrade in keeping with the HD tradition. I'd be more than happy with something like this in my collection. Great job.

[Il Grifone]

Querries:

 

1.  Yes, but there are LH and RH crossings and you need the right one.

2.  Yes and good as long as the wheels are Dublo.

3.  For slow speeds, you need a variwave (H & M) or at least half wave (HD Marshal III) controiler. A modern feedback controller is an alternative. (Beware of antique electrical items! Get them PAT tested.)

4. Yes. Go for the later wide tongued track preferably and leave any with dented bases or worn plating on the shelf/ in the bargain bin.

5. As long as it is warm, dry, and sheltered it should be OK. Perhaps indoors in the worst extremes of winter.

Gloss finish limits you to 1953/early 1954 production and 'Duchess of Montrose', 'Silver King', and the N2 tank. Any other gloss examples mean someone has been handy with the varnish brush. Some geographic mixing is inevitable due to the limited catalogue of items*. Meccano Limited suggested changing engines to represent inter-regional running.

In addition to the blue/green bibles, the complete collection of 'Meccano Magazines' is available for free download online.

* There are a host of minor variations of each item.... For example the first versions of the BR(E) brick wagon and the BR mineral wagon had bauxite underframes and reversed transfers respectively.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Wolseley]

On 03/05/2022 at 23:06, Lacathedrale said:

I have a few questions if that's OK?

1. For track, is it possible to lay out a double junction with 2x electric points and a diamond crossing?
2. Are electric points reliable? What is running like over the turnouts?
3. What is shunting like? A big part of what I want to include is station pilot working, and a goods yard - so lots of stop/start and back/forth at as low speeds as feasible (what is the lower boundary like?)
4. In general should I expect good running from well maintained (but obviously now aged) 3-rail kit?
5. How will they fare in an attached (i.e. warm, dry and sheltered) garage? Is the steel likely to tarnish?

 

1. Yes.  I've done that on my layout.

2. Yes, unless they've been mistreated in the past.  They might need a clean up and a spot of lubricant on the moving parts, but I've only had one instance of a burnt out solenoid.  Occasionally point blades or check rails may be out of true, but they can be bent back fairly easily.

3. The locomotives weren't really designed for scale walking pace shunting over pointwork, so slightly higher than prototype speeds might be necessary, especially for diamond crossings.  You might need to compromise a bit on shunting speed but, if you're using Dublo three rail track, you're already compromising on appearance, so it's no big deal.

4. Yes, in fact it should run better than a lot of 2 rail equipment, as the method of current collection is more efficient.  Aside from dodgy bits of track that have had a hard life (watch out for centre rails bent downwards so that they touch or almost touch the trackbase, as that can cause short circuits) the most likely reasons for erratic running are poorly adjusted pickups (bent collector shoe springs can reduce performance considerably) and out of adjustment back to backs (14.2mm)

5. Sorry.  Can't say.  Mine's in a spare bedroom.

 

Regards.

 

Jim

 

[Wolseley]

Actually, when it comes to electric points, the points are more reliable, in my experience, than the switches.  I have had to discard several switches that looked to be in almost mint condition but, on inspection, turned out to have all the metal inside badly rusted.

[Wolseley]

I don't have a problem with repainting anything unless it's in mint condition and exceptionally rare.

 

 

[DCB]

On 03/05/2022 at 14:06, Lacathedrale said:

I'm finally looking to get started with some vintage toy trains -

 

Whether it's to end up on the dining table or around the walls of the garage is to be determined, but I have a few questions if that's OK?

1. For track, is it possible to lay out a double junction with 2x electric points and a diamond crossing?
2. Are electric points reliable? What is running like over the turnouts?
3. What is shunting like? A big part of what I want to include is station pilot working, and a goods yard - so lots of stop/start and back/forth at as low speeds as feasible (what is the lower boundary like?)
4. In general should I expect good running from well maintained (but obviously now aged) 3-rail kit?
5. How will they fare in an attached (i.e. warm, dry and sheltered) garage? Is the steel likely to tarnish?

2.  Running is very good with H/D 3 rail wheels and H/D 3 rail turnouts.  The wheel flange supports the wheel across flangeway gaps so running is better than Peco code 75/100 , Hornby set track etc where the fangeway is much deeper.   Plastic  wheels get a hammering from the sharp curves and metal frogs so best to re wheel with H/D 3rail metal if possible.

3.   Shunting is difficult as the uncoupling ramp is a big ugly brute and limits where uncoupling can occur, coupling droppers have to be spot on to allow uncoupling and coupling.   If you uncouple by hand their is no problemActual performance of the locos is good, I use Morley Vector and Hammant and Morgan Variable Transformers, though the old H/D A3 controller isn't bad as long as you don't fit brand new Super neo magnets.  Mine have all been converted to 2 rail but the way the steam locos get to grips with a heavy train is very realistic, Except the Diesel shunter which does 200 mph as standard. Mine has Romford 60:1 gears.  Real steam locos are not good at ultra low speed running either.

4, Running is generally good, very reliable, more so than Triang/Hornby, as good as Bachmann on Peco Streamline, as long as the pick up shoes havent worn to grooves.

5, KEEP AWAY FROM SUNLIGHT  The lithographed tin fades to pink or turns brown in sunlight, All you can do is stick a Neverwazza Label or something over it when it fades.  Keep the shed dark,  Works for us, plus we keep valuable stuff in the hidden sidings under cover.  Damp causes the Mazak to go furry white and paint to flake off, and the steel rusts, when they get wet. 100% of my H/D wagons (all now 2 rail converted)  Have or had rusty couplings.

NOTE   3 rail locos are weaker than 2 rail, Extreme case but My 3 rail Duchess struggled with 3 H/D coaches, 2 railed with a Wrenn Tender coupling she hauls 24 modern Lima etc coaches.  The wrenn tender coupling method is a great improvement.   The Tank locos lose about 25%v haulage as 3 rail, the tender pick up pair, 8F and Castle probably the same, I never had a Dorchester or Silver King (Very odd name for a green loco)     I buy cheap damaged H/D wagons, fit wrenn or H/D 2 rail wheels, Recycle the damaged bodies as stock tinplate or plastic and fit kit or modern RTR bodies as the H/D chassis allow reversing long (20 plus wagon) trains through 2ft radius points reliably and modern RTR Chassis, er, Don't.

 

[proton]

Hello,

 

I am looking at buying a couple of Dublo Co-Bos for incorporation into my P4 layout.  Does anyone have any data regarding the dimensional accuracy of the Dublo Co- Bo please?

 

Specifically, I am looking for bogie wheelbases, bogie spacing, overall length and height, as a minimum.  General views on dimensional accuracy would be appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance

 

John

[Il Grifone]

Silver King was one of the original four silver (well grey) livered A4s. The names rather lost their point when the livery was abandoned. When I saw the real one (around 1960), she was so filthy that it was hard to tell she was green.

I would agree that three rail locos have less  pull than to rail due to the pickups but find that the shiny nickel wheels grip less well. A Duchess should be able to haul five Dublo coaches (on the level at least). The coaches do need lubrication, which Lima pin-point axles don't need.

 

The Peco/Dublo/ Trix coupling does need careful setting for reliability.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Il Grifone

[locomad2]

9 hours ago, DCB said:

 

NOTE   3 rail locos are weaker than 2 rail, Extreme case but My 3 rail Duchess struggled with 3 H/D coaches, 2 railed with a Wrenn Tender coupling she hauls 24 modern Lima etc coaches.  The wrenn tender coupling method is a great improvement.   The Tank locos lose about 25%v haulage as 3 rail, the tender pick up pair, 8F and Castle probably the same, I never had a Dorchester or Silver King (Very odd name for a green loco)     I buy cheap damaged H/D wagons, fit wrenn or H/D 2 rail wheels, Recycle the damaged bodies as stock tinplate or plastic and fit kit or modern RTR bodies as the H/D chassis allow reversing long (20 plus wagon) trains through 2ft radius points reliably and modern RTR Chassis, er, Don't.

 

 

 

Never noticed that 3 rail weaker than 2, have both, however the current 2 rail is a lot larger with 9 foot siding, 3ft radius curves and point. So perhaps never really tested long 3 rail trains.

 

This allows at least 40 wagon 2 rail trains and have noticed locos work better, perhaps the sheer momentum of heavy wagons prevents stalls which you get more with 2 rail especially on insol frogs points.

 

As for reversing almost impossible with tension lock hence peco hd coupling, often just to get started a loco needs to reverse whole train just to get started just like real thing

[LMS2968]

7 hours ago, locomad2 said:

 

 

Never noticed that 3 rail weaker than 2, have both, however the current 2 rail is a lot larger with 9 foot siding, 3ft radius curves and point. So perhaps never really tested long 3 rail trains.

 

This allows at least 40 wagon 2 rail trains and have noticed locos work better, perhaps the sheer momentum of heavy wagons prevents stalls which you get more with 2 rail especially on insol frogs points.

 

As for reversing almost impossible with tension lock hence peco hd coupling, often just to get started a loco needs to reverse whole train just to get started just like real thing

When the layout was down, a few years ago and direct on to the carpet, it was 19ft 3in long. This gave sufficient length to run nine coach trains behind the LMS Pacifics and Castle, and 20 wagons plus brake van behind the 8F - early ones with the 1/2" motor. They would slow noticeably on the curves but got around the circuits alright.

[Colin_McLeod]

 

[Colin_McLeod]

 

[Il Grifone]

I always found the 2-6-4T was the most powerful. My childhood example (one of the first 1954 issue) was easily capable of handling all eight of  my coaches.* My 0-6-2T did manage them all once but was happier with seven. The Pacifics on the other hand would only haul five. (The board was a sheet of Weyroc supported on 4 tea chests, so not guaranteed to be a level surface!)

The 2-6-4T is the heavier so has better adhesion. The Pacifics have the handicap of their tenders, which can really be counted as an extra coach. (Dublo axle bearings are far from friction free, especially the inside version used on tenders.)

 

* 2x LNER, 1x LMS, 2x BR(M), and 3 x Suburbans (printed window version).

 

I'll try and measure up my Co-Bo, but she is hidden behind a pile of 'stuff' at the moment - the excuse is 'tidying!'  😏

Edited May 11, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Il Grifone]

Measuements of Dublo Co-Bo

 

Wheelbase                    24 + 24 + 60 + 34mm

Length over Buffers  228mm

Height                           54mm

Width                            35mm

 

All taken with a steel rule, so no promise of 100%  accuracy.

 

Not having a drawing to hand, I can't comment as to correspondance to prototype.

 

True to prototype, when I tried to run her she was sluggish and prone to stalling.

Obviouslly she needs a service and new traction tyres.

 

[proton]

1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

Measuements of Dublo Co-Bo

 

Wheelbase                    24 + 24 + 60 + 34mm

Length over Buffers  228mm

Height                           54mm

Width                            35mm

 

All taken with a steel rule, so no promise of 100%  accuracy.

 

Not having a drawing to hand, I can't comment as to correspondance to prototype.

 

True to prototype, when I tried to run her she was sluggish and prone to stalling.

Obviouslly she needs a service and new traction tyres.

 

Hi David,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time and effort for this.  I have a drawing in my basement, so I will check.  Mine will be converted to P4, so no traction tires!

 

John

[Wolseley]

The underframe details of the Co-Bo leave a lot to be desired by modern standards, but that is part of the appeal of this model.

[proton]

9 hours ago, Wolseley said:

The underframe details of the Co-Bo leave a lot to be desired by modern standards, but that is part of the appeal of this model.

Indeed. I have a Tri-Ang AL1, which as most will know is the Hornby Dublo body mounted onto Tri-Ang's AL2 chassis.  I have modified the body extensively, cutting out all the roof H/T section and replacing it with a modified roof from the Bachmann class 85, and putting it all onto a Bachmann class 85 chassis.  However, I decided to retain the original underframe plastic detail to preserve something of the original nature, and its provenance.

If I acquire a couple of HD Co Bos, I would certainly want to retain some of the models' original detail, even if crude by today's standards

 

John

[melmerby]

36 minutes ago, proton said:

Indeed. I have a Tri-Ang AL1, which as most will know is the Hornby Dublo body mounted onto Tri-Ang's AL2 chassis.  I have modified the body extensively, cutting out all the roof H/T section and replacing it with a modified roof from the Bachmann class 85, and putting it all onto a Bachmann class 85 chassis.  However, I decided to retain the original underframe plastic detail to preserve something of the original nature, and its provenance.

If I acquire a couple of HD Co Bos, I would certainly want to retain some of the models' original detail, even if crude by today's standards

 

John

The HD version bogies are wrong, far too short and they only drive one axle which has rubber tyres.

Haulage in one direction is good, the other way is pathetic. Underframe detail is nil, apart from the bit on the bodyshell.

Sold mine in playworn condition for £100 a while back (still had box, sevicing pamphlet and guarantee info), paid 67/6d for it new.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The HD version bogies are wrong, far too short and they only drive one axle which has rubber tyres.

 

Is that correct? My recollection is of two driven axles from a horizontal lay-shaft.

 

CJI.