Michael Edge's workbench

[gz3xzf]

Micheal

I couldn't find a mention of it, is the C14 built from a kit or scratch built?

[Michael Edge]

It's a test etch, we're hoping to have it as a kit sometime early next year.

[Tony Teague]

C14 is looking amazingly good Mike!

[Michael Edge]

Better weather today so I've started painting the C14, meanwhile I've been experimenting with motors again.

I got some of these n20 motor/gearboxes to try out.

They have a worm gear for the first stage so the output is in the plane required, bottom  left is one as it comes, I know you can get these with the shaft out each side but I needed to alter it to 1/8th anyway (I've got some of the others as well).

I tried knocking the output shaft out but it wasn't very willing to move so ended up dismantling the gearbox, two screws remove it from the motor and two of the riveted pins at the other end were drilled out. Top right is the final drive gear, to machine this out to 1/8th (the final drive shaft is 3mm but the hole in this gear is smaller) I first fitted and soldered a 3/16th diameter bush in it. This was then held in the collet chuck to bore out to 1/8th and a grub screw added. The original bushes were drilled out to 1/8th.

Re-assembled with the drilled out pins soldered back in place - a word of warning here, once re-assembled the final drive gear can't be put back in past the pins, this is the reason why one of them has been sawn in half with a piercing saw to get the necessary clearance. The result is a smooth, quiet motor unit which fits neatly inside 00 gauge frames, it's not very fast but it's going in a diesel shunter so 25-30mph is plenty. The addition of a worm stage doesn't seem to have reduced the efficiency much and it has more than enough power for its intended use.

Installed in a Hunslet 0-60DH it fits more or less where the engine should be and still drives on the leading axle which avoids complications under the cab floor.

[cctransuk]

4 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Better weather today so I've started painting the C14, meanwhile I've been experimenting with motors again.

I got some of these n20 motor/gearboxes to try out.

They have a worm gear for the first stage so the output is in the plane required, bottom  left is one as it comes, I know you can get these with the shaft out each side but I needed to alter it to 1/8th anyway (I've got some of the others as well).

I tried knocking the output shaft out but it wasn't very willing to move so ended up dismantling the gearbox, two screws remove it from the motor and two of the riveted pins at the other end were drilled out. Top right is the final drive gear, to machine this out to 1/8th (the final drive shaft is 3mm but the hole in this gear is smaller) I first fitted and soldered a 3/16th diameter bush in it. This was then held in the collet chuck to bore out to 1/8th and a grub screw added. The original bushes were drilled out to 1/8th.

Re-assembled with the drilled out pins soldered back in place - a word of warning here, once re-assembled the final drive gear can't be put back in past the pins, this is the reason why one of them has been sawn in half with a piercing saw to get the necessary clearance. The result is a smooth, quiet motor unit which fits neatly inside 00 gauge frames, it's not very fast but it's going in a diesel shunter so 25-30mph is plenty. The addition of a worm stage doesn't seem to have reduced the efficiency much and it has more than enough power for its intended use.

Installed in a Hunslet 0-60DH it fits more or less where the engine should be and still drives on the leading axle which avoids complications under the cab floor.

 

Very much as per my experience when fitting one of the double shaft variant into a Deeley 0-4-0 dock tank.

 

The output RPM is ideal for a small wheeled shunter, and the torque is impressive. I wonder if the worm drive motor gearboxes are available with a lower reduction ratio; I'd like to try one in, say, a BR Standard 4MT 2-6-0.

 

John Isherwood.

[Michael Edge]

Possibly but all the ones I have seen look the same ratio.

[AlfaZagato]

I was curious about fitting these between the frames.  I have a Y7 that needs remotoring.  Space seemed a premium.   Happy to see its doable.

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Very much as per my experience when fitting one of the double shaft variant into a Deeley 0-4-0 dock tank.

 

The output RPM is ideal for a small wheeled shunter, and the torque is impressive. I wonder if the worm drive motor gearboxes are available with a lower reduction ratio; I'd like to try one in, say, a BR Standard 4MT 2-6-0.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Don't you just buy a different voltage version to adjust speed incrementally?, that's my experience of the couple I bought to have a play with.

 

Mike.

[SR71]

This listing has different speed ratings. I have one to try out as you have but I've not gotten to it yet.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265431104310?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AoBSuMVjTx2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=uL-JGcPYSsK&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[Battledown]

I've had a gate set painted and fully lined in LSWR salmon & pink livery that have been waiting for a C14 for some 25 years. I know they were rebuilt with new cylinders and valve gear and subsequently never actually used on passenger services but that is a compromise I would be prepared to live with. So I look forward to having an excuse to buy one of your kits at last!

[Michael Edge]

4 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

I was curious about fitting these between the frames.  I have a Y7 that needs remotoring.  Space seemed a premium.   Happy to see its doable.

The gearbox is 10mm overall width without bushes, fits easily in our 00 frames and would still fit if they were as narrow as they really should be for this loco. Like many other Hunslets they had the axleboxes fitted on the outside of the frames for standard gauge and on the inside for 3'6" gauge.

[Pierview]

I am interested in the use of the n20 motor which seems ideal for a small 4mm shunting loco. Can I ask what rpm motor you used Mike? 

 

Barry

[Michael Edge]

I don't know what the rpm is, it wasn't quoted in the list I picked it from. It gives a top speed of about 30mph with 3'9" wheels which is just about right for this loco. I've not used many of this type of motor/gearbox in locos which have to run fast, I've put the commonest ratio inline one in a Crab with 1:1 bevel gears and that goes fast enough. For 7mm scale I have one in an 05 and one in a Ruston 48DS but they don't have to go quickly, the only express loco I've used them in is a 7mm EE1 which has three - I had to change these for a higher ratio as it didn't go fast enough. It does also depend on how many volts you can put into them which varies even in my layout control systems, they seem to work OK on DCC, I have one in an MDHB Hunslet 14" and it probably goes too fast if anything for the dock railway.

It would be handy to have some way of measuring motor rpm but I don't, I can measure how fast the loco runs by timing it on the track though.

[Ruston]

I did this same conversion to get a 1/8th axle into the gearbox. The performance was disappointing, especially when compared to the wormless type. The loco weighed just 180g but as soon as it was coupled to a train that it couldn't pull, instead of spinning its wheels, it just sat down and made a buzzing noise as the motor attempted to turn. Rocol anti scuff paste on the worm improved it but it still isn't a great hauler. I reckoned that it's more trouble that it's worth and haven't tried another.

[cctransuk]

6 hours ago, SR71 said:

This listing has different speed ratings. I have one to try out as you have but I've not gotten to it yet.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265431104310?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AoBSuMVjTx2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=uL-JGcPYSsK&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

So it does - I'd forgotten! The one that I bought was ideal for the Deeley dock tank - but I can't recall which one it was!

 

So, for the knowledgeable, which of the gear ratios - 27, 53, 68, 136 or 381:1 - would be best for, say, a BR Standard 4MT with a scale top speed of 70mph?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

John Isherwood.

[ianmaccormac]

On 05/11/2022 at 18:01, Michael Edge said:

I posted this earlier on Wright writes but it's worth putting here.

From Lidl this morning - £9.99

They think it's a depth gauge but not to me...

Overall height of latest finished job being measured here.

Another Stroudley D tank from the Albion kit, my customer says this is the last one, I'm getting a bit bored with these now.

Inside it's powered by an n20 driving through a crown wheel and pinion. There's another gear reduction here but the loco isn't required to go very fast and these are much easier to set up than the 1:1 bevel gears. I'm struggling to find a reliable source of the crown wheels though, searching "crown wheels" just brings up every sort of gear, not very helpful.

Mike,  275510272596 item in ebay is for 0.5mod crown wheels. I have just ordered some to see. Cheers, Ian in Blackpool

 

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, ianmaccormac said:

... 275510272596 item in ebay is for 0.5mod crown wheels.

 

Having spent the entire morning untangling a (blasted!) set of 500 Xmas tree LEDs, my brain hurts!

 

I cannot for the life of me work out which of the crown wheels will fit between 16.5mm. gauge frames, together with a matching gear fitted to a single longitudinal output N20 motor.

 

Any advice as to the appropriate item reference number would be welcome, as would be a source for the matching gear.

 

TIA,

John Isherwood.

[ianmaccormac]

ebay item 401287665669 is the gear for the motor output,  C203A is an 11mm diameter gear on 2.95mm shaft; C303A is 16mm dia and C323A is 17mm dia. 

That is what I think I have just ordered.

Hope that helps

Cheers, Ian

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, ianmaccormac said:

ebay item 401287665669 is the gear for the motor output,  C203A is an 11mm diameter gear on 2.95mm shaft; C303A is 16mm dia and C323A is 17mm dia. 

That is what I think I have just ordered.

Hope that helps

Cheers, Ian

 

Thank you so much - I had tentatively guessed at C203A - but was too burned-out with the wire-untangling to be confident enough to order!

 

I will order C203A, plus the output gear that you mention.

 

Thank you again.

 

CJI.

[ianmaccormac]

As I say, I have just ordered those and so hope they will be correct. I haven't seen them yet so hope they are!!

Cheers, Ian

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, ianmaccormac said:

As I say, I have just ordered those and so hope they will be correct. I haven't seen them yet so hope they are!!

Cheers, Ian

 

Bum !!!!!

 

I "can't order those because the seller is on holiday" !!!

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

30 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Bum !!!!!

 

I "can't order those because the seller is on holiday" !!!

 

CJI.

 

Seems to be an Ebay glitch - the message appears if you click on 'Add to basket', but it's fine if you click 'Buy it now'!

 

It means that you pay P&P on both items, but what's £1.79 amongst friends!

 

CJI.

[Michael Edge]

3 hours ago, Ruston said:

I did this same conversion to get a 1/8th axle into the gearbox. The performance was disappointing, especially when compared to the wormless type. The loco weighed just 180g but as soon as it was coupled to a train that it couldn't pull, instead of spinning its wheels, it just sat down and made a buzzing noise as the motor attempted to turn. Rocol anti scuff paste on the worm improved it but it still isn't a great hauler. I reckoned that it's more trouble that it's worth and haven't tried another.

Not sure what went wrong there Dave, the one I've just fitted is as unstoppable as the ones with all spur gears - at least in this small 4mm loco. When I first tried to knock the final shaft out I managed to lock it all up solid, which is why I carried on to dismantle the gearbox so maybe you managed to jam some of the spur gears?

Going back to crown wheels, a vast quantity of them turned up from Aliexpress last week - I thought I had ordered 10 and got ten packs of ten.... They still weren't very expensive though.

[cctransuk]

20 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Not sure what went wrong there Dave, the one I've just fitted is as unstoppable as the ones with all spur gears - at least in this small 4mm loco. When I first tried to knock the final shaft out I managed to lock it all up solid, which is why I carried on to dismantle the gearbox so maybe you managed to jam some of the spur gears?

Going back to crown wheels, a vast quantity of them turned up from Aliexpress last week - I thought I had ordered 10 and got ten packs of ten.... They still weren't very expensive though.

 

Agreed, mine in the Deeley tank runs beautifully.

 

CJI.

[SR71]

6 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

So it does - I'd forgotten! The one that I bought was ideal for the Deeley dock tank - but I can't recall which one it was!

 

So, for the knowledgeable, which of the gear ratios - 27, 53, 68, 136 or 381:1 - would be best for, say, a BR Standard 4MT with a scale top speed of 70mph?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Hi John,

 

I wrote the attached excel to work just that out. From experience I found I wanted more than the scale top speed so that you aren't flat out if you get a chance to run on a big layout and also because somehow the speed visually didn't scale and looks too slow.

 

It should be self explanatory, fill in the boxes that don't have formulae in and it spits out a speed. I've had to do several transfers on my phone etc. to upload this so if it doesn't work let me know and I'll try on the PC.

 

 

Motor wheel speed 2.xls

Edited December 4, 2022 by SR71
Correction to attachment file