Class 37, by Accurascale

[E100]

12 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

While the odd celebrity or one-off is nice, personally I'd much rather see a whole load of everyday locos in the more standard liveries

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree. A highland 37/4 for a start and some more banger blue's wouldn't go a miss, though I believe the next batches are already largely planned out well down the line so this was more to add to batches after those.

[GordonC]

2 hours ago, E100 said:

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree. A highland 37/4 for a start and some more banger blue's wouldn't go a miss, though I believe the next batches are already largely planned out well down the line so this was more to add to batches after those.

 

I'm sure they're already well planned out ahead, but manufacturers normally give an option or two at a time when the numbers of variations even in the main liveries must be huge e.g. Large Logo - depot logos, centre/split headcode, refurbished/unrefurbished, headlight style and position, boiler fitted or plated over, bogie type

 

It'd be good to have a bit more choice for the BR liveries

[SRman]

If anyone is interested, I had a good session on the LokProgrammer reconfiguring D6704 's functions (with Accurascale's own 37/0 sound factory-fitted) to get them closer to the other 37s I have for operating the lighting functions, although I decided to simplify it a bit seeing as the standard Accurascale file allows for lighting options the green 37 simply doesn't have. I also have all of them set to use F2 for braking, which means the horns get shifted up one each to F3 and F4. I have not rationalised the AUX outputs for the lighting functions yet, as some are not actually used to light anything. There is no night headlight setting on this model, and only the headcodes and tail lights for the nose ends (i.e. no actual headlights at all!). I have put tail lights as default off, using F20 to turn them on. Cab lighting is now on F21. Engine room lighting is on F17.

F23 does depot lighting, which is all red tail lights on when stationary, but I'm not sure the 37s of this period had this feature.

I must emphasise that I have not finalised the ancillary sound allocations yet, so some of these are a bit arbitrary at present.

Turning F0 on lights the headcodes at whichever end is leading. Pressing F20 while F0 is on turns on tail lights at the other end. F21 lights only the leading end's cab light, which has had its brightness turned down to a setting of 11 (out of 31). The engine room lights have also been dimmed to 17.

 

I always save the file loaded into the LokProgrammer first, then save again with a different name so that if it all goes pear-shaped, I can load the file settings I started with back in.

I understand fully that not everyone wants to do any of this, and it is done purely to satisfy my own preferences, but I hope this might get people thinking about the possibilities for their own models. I hope you can see the logic in these settings. One thing defeated me with the simplifications though, until I looked at the original file: AUX13 had to be there for all of the lighting functions to work. I'm not sure why that is, but until I put those two lines at the end back in, none of the lights worked.

 

 

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

10 minutes ago, SRman said:

If anyone is interested, I had a good session on the LokProgrammer reconfiguring D6704 's functions (with Accurascale's own 37/0 sound factory-fitted) to get them closer to the other 37s I have for operating the lighting functions, although I decided to simplify it a bit seeing as the standard Accurascale file allows for lighting options the green 37 simply doesn't have. I also have all of them set to use F2 for braking, which means the horns get shifted up one each to F3 and F4. I have not rationalised the AUX outputs for the lighting functions yet, as some are not actually used to light anything. There is no night headlight setting on this model, and only the headcodes and tail lights for the nose ends (i.e. no actual headlights at all!). I have put tail lights as default off, using F20 to turn them on. Cab lighting is now on F21. Engine room lighting is on F17.

F23 does depot lighting, which is all red tail lights on when stationary, but I'm not sure the 37s of this period had this feature.

I must emphasise that I have not finalised the ancillary sound allocations yet, so some of these are a bit arbitrary at present.

Turning F0 on lights the headcodes at whichever end is leading. Pressing F20 while F0 is on turns on tail lights at the other end. F21 lights only the leading end's cab light, which has had its brightness turned down to a setting of 11 (out of 31). The engine room lights have also been dimmed to 17.

 

I always save the file loaded into the LokProgrammer first, then save again with a different name so that if it all goes pear-shaped, I can load the file settings I started with back in.

I understand fully that not everyone wants to do any of this, and it is done purely to satisfy my own preferences, but I hope this might get people thinking about the possibilities for their own models. I hope you can see the logic in these settings. One thing defeated me with the simplifications though, until I looked at the original file: AUX13 had to be there for all of the lighting functions to work. I'm not sure why that is, but until I put those two lines at the end back in, none of the lights worked.

 

 

 

 

That looks useful many thanks for sharing 

[Bloodnok]

5 hours ago, SRman said:

One thing defeated me with the simplifications though, until I looked at the original file: AUX13 had to be there for all of the lighting functions to work. I'm not sure why that is, but until I put those two lines at the end back in, none of the lights worked.

That is ... fascinating.

Given that AUX13 is not a pin on a 21 pin decoder (neither is AUX14), what does having AUX13 defined in the list change in terms of how a 21 pin ESU decoder addresses functions?

I'm getting concerned with the lack of information on this loco. I really don't want to have to take the loco apart, pull the PCB out and reverse engineer it ... purely to find out how to actually make it work properly.

[McC]

31 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

I'm getting concerned with the lack of information on this loco. I really don't want to have to take the loco apart, pull the PCB out and reverse engineer it ... purely to find out how to actually make it work properly.

 

There is extensive information in the manual, in the ESU lok5 manual, and available from us if needed, it's obviously also programmed to work properly out of the box ;) 

[55020]

1 hour ago, Bloodnok said:

I'm getting concerned with the lack of information on this loco. I really don't want to have to take the loco apart, pull the PCB out and reverse engineer it ... purely to find out how to actually make it work properly.

 

It works straight out of the box.  Don't be "concerned" 😉😂😂

 

 

Steve

[Bloodnok]

1 hour ago, McC said:

There is extensive information in the manual,

 

No, there isn't. There's a single table with an AUX to function mapping (which you should be commended for, as many manufacturers just expect you to figure even that out), but which includes AUX numbers that DO NOT EXIST IN THE 21 PIN INTERFACE.

 

1 hour ago, McC said:

in the ESU lok5 manual

 

... This I also have. That's why I know that AUX8, AUX9, AUX13 and AUX14, all of which are documented in the 37 manual as doing something, are not pins in the 21 pin interface. See my previous post in this thread where I posted the screenshots.

 

1 hour ago, McC said:

and available from us if needed

 

I've been talking to support since November, and so far made zero progress towards getting the missing functions working.

 

1 hour ago, McC said:

it's obviously also programmed to work properly out of the box ;) 

 

Which only helps if you bought the Factory LokSound equipped version (and are happy to retain ESUs decoder). Given I don't value sound and really don't like other aspects of ESU's decoder behaviour, responses of the form "You should have bought the sound fitted one" don't help me.

Four decoders. Two months with open support tickets. Still my 37 doesn't recognise AUX outputs from 5 and up, and my 92 doesn't recognise AUX3, 4, 5, 7 and 10 (but ... AUX 6, 11 and 12 do work). Yes the decoders have enough functions, and yes they are working.

[McC]

1 minute ago, Bloodnok said:

 

No, there isn't. There's a single table with an AUX to function mapping (which you should be commended for, as many manufacturers just expect you to figure even that out), but which includes AUX numbers that DO NOT EXIST IN THE 21 PIN INTERFACE.

 

 

... This I also have. That's why I know that AUX8, AUX9, AUX13 and AUX14, all of which are documented in the 37 manual as doing something, are not pins in the 21 pin interface. See my previous post in this thread where I posted the screenshots.

 

 

I've been talking to support since November, and so far made zero progress towards getting the missing functions working.

 

 

Which only helps if you bought the Factory LokSound equipped version (and are happy to retain ESUs decoder). Given I don't value sound and really don't like other aspects of ESU's decoder behaviour, responses of the form "You should have bought the sound fitted one" don't help me.

Four decoders. Two months with open support tickets. Still my 37 doesn't recognise AUX outputs from 5 and up, and my 92 doesn't recognise AUX3, 4, 5, 7 and 10 (but ... AUX 6, 11 and 12 do work). Yes the decoders have enough functions, and yes they are working.

 

Aha! You're not using ESU chips? The Locos are built specifically making use of ESU functionality, with Integrated circuits built in that 'translate' ESU logic to multiple functions. If you ask the team, they can pass on the query to ESU, but using a third party chip simply won't unlock 'all ' the designed functionality. 

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

3 minutes ago, McC said:

 

Aha! You're not using ESU chips? The Locos are built specifically making use of ESU functionality, with Integrated circuits built in that 'translate' ESU logic to multiple functions. If you ask the team, they can pass on the query to ESU, but using a third party chip simply won't unlock 'all ' the designed functionality. 

Not sure how I feel about this tbh. Doesn’t affect me yet for the 37’s as all of mine are sound fitted (or upgraded after) but making a model so that only one brand of chip can work all the functions does not seem ok. Any high end chip should be able to work with any higher end loco and have full functionality in my view. Picking just one to work with feels a bit like going down the Apple route with phones and does start to go against the point of having a DCC standard.

[McC]

1 minute ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Not sure how I feel about this tbh. Doesn’t affect me yet for the 37’s as all of mine are sound fitted (or upgraded after) but making a model so that only one brand of chip can work all the functions does not seem ok. Any high end chip should be able to work with any higher end loco and have full functionality in my view. Picking just one to work with feels a bit like going down the Apple route with phones and does start to go against the point of having a DCC standard.

 

Any high end chip does, the model just has 'extra' additional functions too, which are beyond the specification of DCC / NRMA and pushing the limits of what's possible. Using a third party chip doesnt impact any core function. 

[Bloodnok]

Just now, McC said:

Aha! You're not using ESU chips?

 

No, I'm not. And this has been mentioned before, both here in this thread, and to support when I've been talking to them.

 

Until ESU can fix their ABC behaviour (yes, confirmed still a problem on factory sound Accurascale locos, because we've got one at the club and it can't stop in the right place to save it's life), I won't be using any ESU decoders.
 

Just now, McC said:

The Locos are built specifically making use of ESU functionality

 

Please explain what that *means*.

 

When asked, Accurascale support seemed to think it was something to do with logic level functions rather than full power functions -- but I'm aware of that distinction, hence I sourced 10 function decoders in a 4+6 configuration to match what ESU decoders do.
 

Just now, McC said:

with Integrated circuits built in that 'translate' ESU logic to multiple functions. If you ask the team, they can pass on the query to ESU, but using a third party chip simply won't unlock 'all' the designed functionality. 

 

So ... where does that leave anyone with quality, non-ESU decoder? I understand that someone digging up an ancient decoder with only a few functions can't expect good results from a loco with lots of functions, but I've got decent decoders here which can drive every function pin that the ESU can, in the same power / logic level configuration, and no-one is either able or willing to explain why it doesn't work.

[Bloodnok]

4 minutes ago, McC said:

Any high end chip does, the model just has 'extra' additional functions too, which are beyond the specification of DCC / NRMA and pushing the limits of what's possible. Using a third party chip doesnt impact any core function. 

Please define "Core Function".

Which lights are considered "Core" and which ones aren't?

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

5 minutes ago, McC said:

 

Any high end chip does, the model just has 'extra' additional functions too, which are beyond the specification of DCC / NRMA and pushing the limits of what's possible. Using a third party chip doesnt impact any core function. 

Which still forces anyone wanting to use those extra functions to have to use ESU. Core functionally should be accessible to any DCC decoder for the socket. But all high end chips should do all functions. Granted some re-mapping might be needed, but making it not possible for all but one brand isn’t great.

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

Looking at the DCC standard and then the list of functions and AUX ports for the AS37 there are a few confusing things especially when ‘core functionality’ should work with any high end chip. I think it’s fair to assume higher end chips should be able to work F0f and F0r, and then aux 1-10. Using this logic, putting the top headlights on aux ports outside of this range, but dashboard lighting and engine room lighting within seems very backwards. At the very least these should be the other way around.

[McC]

23 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

Please define "Core Function".

Which lights are considered "Core" and which ones aren't?

 

21 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Which still forces anyone wanting to use those extra functions to have to use ESU. Core functionally should be accessible to any DCC decoder for the socket. But all high end chips should do all functions. Granted some re-mapping might be needed, but making it not possible for all but one brand isn’t great.

 

For the sake of clarity, in the first instance, I'm not technical support, nor is this forum a point of contact for that team and I'm providing my 'understanding' in this regard :) If you want real data, the support channels you are using, can escalate the issue to ESU and provide better clarity, if it's possible (we can't be experts on third party chips, etc).

 

Secondly, this is pretty normal behaviour for an ESU built system, and parts of the functionality are managed by IC's on the PCB working with the ESU programming.  Absolutely all 'core' functions are supported by all standard chips, but we give you something 'extra' by going beyond, just that 'extra' means using the 'as designed' for chip. Not using the ESU chips will mean some of the more complex lighting modes might not be available for you, as there were simply too many options for a regular decoder to run directly. 

 

Moving all the lighting to lower AUX would then remove several functions for DC users, which are a larger customer group than those who want to run third party chips in the locos. Like all such things, providing class leading and cutting edge flexibility in lighting and operation, requires some small compromises. 

 

 

[Bloodnok]

4 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Looking at the DCC standard and then the list of functions and AUX ports for the AS37 there are a few confusing things especially when ‘core functionality’ should work with any high end chip. I think it’s fair to assume higher end chips should be able to work F0f and F0r, and then aux 1-10. Using this logic, putting the top headlights on aux ports outside of this range, but dashboard lighting and engine room lighting within seems very backwards. At the very least these should be the other way around.

Read the ESU documentation carefully.

The AUX pins on an ESU chip are F0f, F0r, AUX1, AUX2, AUX3, AUX4, AUX5, AUX6, AUX7, AUX10, AUX11 and AUX12. They skip AUX8 and AUX9.

These are the functions I would expect to be able to get at with a non-ESU, 10 function decoder.

However, if you want to connect to an extender, some of those are going to be used to connect the extender. The standard says AUX11 and AUX12 are available as logic level outputs, as servo outputs (Accurascale use these to drive servos on the Class 92) or as a SuSI connection (something that was designed back when making one decoder do both motor control and sound output was beyond capability, so it had to be two decoders that communicated with each other). SuSI has very little use now that decoders that can do both exist.

However, it is theoretically possible to use a SuSI connection to drive additional functions (AUX A to AUX P) instead of it's original intention to drive sounds. Note that ESU document these as letters, not numbers, to make sure there is no confusion between the two.

If there's a comms protocol going on (whether SuSI or something else) I'd bet it uses these two pins. So that brings our "core" set down to F0f, F0r, AUX1, AUX2, AUX3, AUX4, AUX5, AUX6, AUX7, AUX10.

SuSI is not limited to ESU, and can be done by many other decoders. If it was done by SuSI functions, you'd think that googling "Accurascale 37 SuSI" would have some hits somewhere on the internet ... but there's nothing useful there so I can't see it being that.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

2 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

I really don't want to have to take the loco apart, pull the PCB out and reverse engineer it ... purely to find out how to actually make it work properly.

For less than £30 i would have thought their no sound chip good value,its your model so fill your boots,you seem a minority so is this the place for this? ,looks like the lifetime warranty is going out the window.

[Bloodnok]

6 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Which still forces anyone wanting to use those extra functions to have to use ESU. Core functionally should be accessible to any DCC decoder for the socket.

 

Also depends what they mean by "Core" and "Extended".

All white lights on the front of the train and red lights on the back are "Core" to me. I can live without things like engine room lights, they are a "nice to have" and not a key feature. I wouldn't miss it if it had never been fitted.

But the correct light pattern being displayed on the front of a train is now an expected feature, IMHO.

Not having the roof level light (where fitted) as a "core" feature moves Accurascale locos into the category of "needs a rewire because the manufacturer couldn't do it right" -- right alongside mostly 8 pin socket models from 20 years ago when lighting was new and things like "switching off the tail lights when hauling a train" was something that required homebrewing your own installation.

 

I mean, fine if that's the level Accurascale aspire to, but I was expecting a little better from a new model.
 

6 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

But all high end chips should do all functions. Granted some re-mapping might be needed, but making it not possible for all but one brand isn’t great.

I'm well aware that anything on the decoder configuration side is my responsibility -- I know that when I'm bringing my own decoder to the table. All I need is a series of statements of the form "AUX 5 (pin 17), logic-level, <light>|<lighting configuration>|<feature>"

... And an explanation as to what the hell is going on with AUX8, AUX9, AUX13 and AUX14.

[ruggedpeak]

I have no idea what's going on, just glad I bought DC versions! 🤣

 

However, since the Cavalex 56 thread is rapidly going the same way into arcane IT/digital stuff, can I suggest those who want to discuss Susi and her connections create threads in the DCC area rather than clogging up the main model thread with stuff that is irrelevant for many/most customers?

 

I'd also suggest to the Mods they create a Wiki area where people can put documents such as lists of CV settings for locos/chips etc to reside for further reference. I have found this invaluable on other forums where definitive technical documents can reside for all to refer to.

[Bloodnok]

2 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

For less than £30 i would have thought their no sound chip good value

 

That's still an ESU though, right?

Given I can't make ESU work properly with the control system I'm using, which depends on ABC braking, "buy a pre-configured ESU" isn't something that helps.

 

2 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

looks like the lifetime warranty is going out the window.

 

That's why I'd much rather someone who knows answer the question than it have to be me that answers it for everyone else that needs an answer.

Is this the right place? The people manning the support email know less about the loco than the Accurascale representatives in this thread, and are a lot less active than the Accurascale representatives in this thread, too.

And am I in the minority? Almost certainly. That doesn't make me not a customer though, and doesn't solve the problem.

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

ESU might choose to skip Aux 8 and Aux 9. But the NMRA standard does not. Why esu do I don’t know, but it shouldn’t matter. Completely agree with the fact that dial and engine room lights are not essential, but anything on the outside for head or tail light arrangement is. And as for the ordering. All the lights work on dc models to me knowledge, so how swapping them around would change what ones are accessible doesn’t make much sense

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

I have no idea what's going on, just glad I bought DC versions! 🤣

 

However, since the Cavalex 56 thread is rapidly going the same way into arcane IT/digital stuff, can I suggest those who want to discuss Susi and her connections create threads in the DCC area rather than clogging up the main model thread with stuff that is irrelevant for many/most customers?

 

 

They're a darned sight more useful than the tediously predictable plethora of delivery / lack of delivery reports which are now clogging up the thread.

 

In terms of a Wiki nice idea but relies on somebody somewhere having the spare time and effort to set it up. 

Edited February 1 by spamcan61

[Bloodnok]

22 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

However, since the Cavalex 56 thread is rapidly going the same way into arcane IT/digital stuff, can I suggest those who want to discuss Susi and her connections create threads in the DCC area rather than clogging up the main model thread with stuff that is irrelevant for many/most customers?

 

If the question could be answered, and then we'd all be able to go away and play with our trains, and not talk on forums about how we can't get them to work as they should.

Sadly, it's an unfortunate fact (that I wish were not true) of the modern world, that if you want a problem fixed, you have to air it somewhere it can impact future sales.

Discussing it where it is easy to ignore just means it will be ignored.

Edited February 1 by Bloodnok
To clarify meaning because it's clearly been misunderstood by ... certain people.

[Bloodnok]

2 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

ESU might choose to skip Aux 8 and Aux 9. But the NMRA standard does not. Why esu do I don’t know, but it shouldn’t matter.

 

That's why I'd prefer to refer to the actual socket pin, not the AUX function number -- a number of manufacturers use different assignments of number to pin.

But if Accurascale want to use the ESU naming, that's fine too. I can go get ESU's documentation (which I did), so I can find out that their AUX11 is on pin 6, which is my decoder's FO8, and I can adapt my setup accordingly. That's all fine.

 

2 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Completely agree with the fact that dial and engine room lights are not essential, but anything on the outside for head or tail light arrangement is. And as for the ordering. All the lights work on dc models to me knowledge, so how swapping them around would change what ones are accessible doesn’t make much sense

 

Yeah, had that with my 92 -- Support seem to accept that the centre top light (which works fine on DC) just ... won't work if you don't buy their pre-configured decoder. Sorry, that's not acceptable.