The Night Mail

[rockershovel]

My late father and his brothers served in N Africa, Italy and Normandy. I don't believe any of them survived to fight in Germany itself. My father was severely injured in Italy and sent home, only to return as rear-echelon RTR repair-and-salvage personnel in Holland in the aftermath of Market Garden. 

 

A school master who had been in 1930s  Germany in some FO liaison capacity, used to tell us that the Germans had correctly judged that the French would not attack in 1939-40 despite being presented with their open flank; that the French would not provoke open hostilities as long as the Germans did not, and the British could not and would not change this. 

 

The risk, in German eyes was to trust that the Soviet non-aggression pact would hold. However the Germans probably knew more than anyone else outside Russia about the Soviets  and their judgement held good. What the Soviets would have done in the event of a Franco-British incursion into Germany  was the risk. 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by rockershovel

[PhilJ W]

16 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

The risk, in German eyes was to trust that the Soviet non-aggression pact would hold. However the Germans probably knew more than anyone else outside Russia about the Soviets  and their judgement held good. What the Soviets would have done in the event of a Franco-British incursion into Germany  was the risk.

Yet Stalin was begging Hitler to let him join the Axis. But Hitler had other ideas and caught the Russians by surprise with operation Barbarossa. It was said that trains carrying German troops to the Eastern Front passed trains carrying Russian oil to Germany. It was the British who warned Stalin that the attack was imminent but he refused to believe it.

My dad spent the war out in Burma fighting the Japanese and he said the only way to stop them was to kill them. Bravery or foolhardiness?

[Winslow Boy]

Someone more knowledgeable than I may be able to help here but I do seem to recall that the French did actually rout the Germans in a tank battle in 1940 s at one point but because of insufficient armour they were unable to follow through. If I'm recalling it correctly it had something to do with fact that the French tanks were better armed than the German ones and were able to knock them out at greater range.

 

. It was because of this and the British 17 pounder that resulted in the development of the tiger and panther tanks both of which were far superior to anything the allies were able to produce at that time.

[SM42]

52 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

I don't know my father's views of the French although an uncle who fought in North Africa and subsequently in France held them in very low regard, not least for their politically-driven internal command divisions.

 

It seems the Polish airmen who escaped west also had a poor regard for the fighting abilities of their French counterparts

I've read polish accounts of French airmen drinking  champagne whilst the Poles were in scramble.  

 

Whether that was due to the gumption  of the individuals or poor leadership and  command organisations  I suspect will remain a historical debate for many years . 

 

I suspect the latter

 

Andy

[pH]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

It's also a matter of record that the British government didn't regard them as dangerous as PoWs, paroling them in large numbers as agricultural workers. 

Though they did manage the biggest escape from a POW camp in the UK during the war:
 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/great-escape-doonfoot-amazing-tale-9507342

 

My cousins and I used to play in the buildings of that camp as kids.

[petethemole]

32 minutes ago, Winslow Boy said:

. It was because of this and the British 17 pounder that resulted in the development of the tiger and panther tanks both of which were far superior to anything the allies were able to produce at that time.

The Panther and Tiger were developed in response to the appearance of the Soviet T34, indeed the initial concept for the Panther was a near copy of the T34, which was vetoed because the Germans could not be seen to copy technology used by "inferior" opponents.  The British 17 pdr was developed to produce an equivalent weapon to the German 88mm (and the 75mm L70, as fitted to the Panther).

[jamie92208]

40 minutes ago, Winslow Boy said:

Someone more knowledgeable than I may be able to help here but I do seem to recall that the French did actually rout the Germans in a tank battle in 1940 s at one point but because of insufficient armour they were unable to follow through. If I'm recalling it correctly it had something to do with fact that the French tanks were better armed than the German ones and were able to knock them out at greater range.

 

. It was because of this and the British 17 pounder that resulted in the development of the tiger and panther tanks both of which were far superior to anything the allies were able to produce at that time.

Yes the Char B's which were heavily armoured and IIRC had a big sponson mounted main gun. Their commander was a certain Charles de Gaulle, they rattled the Germans as did British Matildas at Arras led by a certain Bernard Montgomery.  It is thought that these two reversals are why the German columns stopped st the channel coast and didn't take Dunkirk.

 

Jamie

[AndyID]

13 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Evening all,

 

Yesterday I did I finished an exceedingly good book. L.T.C Rolt’s biography of Isembard Kingdom Brunel. It is an exhaustive account of the man and I would highly recommend it. 
 

In other news, I have spent a good 5 hours today on the lathe attempting to make better looking salter springs for the engine. The first time I was successful I went to thread the peice and discovered that the 9 BA die was in fact sorely lacking in threading. In fact it had none at all! So that piece was ruined. The next 3 snapped off in the lathe, and attempt 4 had a rubbish surface finish. As far as I can tell I have the wrong brass alloy, which I got from Lowes. More work will be done tomorrow.

 

Douglas

 

Try to get some 12L14 cold drawn steel. It contains a little lead and machines beautifully. It's much stronger than brass.

[PhilJ W]

54 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Yes the Char B's which were heavily armoured and IIRC had a big sponson mounted main gun. Their commander was a certain Charles de Gaulle, they rattled the Germans as did British Matildas at Arras led by a certain Bernard Montgomery.  It is thought that these two reversals are why the German columns stopped st the channel coast and didn't take Dunkirk.

 

Jamie

They were well armoured against the anti-tank artillery at the time but the Matilda's in particular were under gunned. 

[Happy Hippo]

30 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Yes the Char B's which were heavily armoured and IIRC had a big sponson mounted main gun. Their commander was a certain Charles de Gaulle, they rattled the Germans as did British Matildas at Arras led by a certain Bernard Montgomery.  It is thought that these two reversals are why the German columns stopped st the channel coast and didn't take Dunkirk.

 

Jamie

I think the reason the Germans stopped short of Dunkirk was Hermann Goering wanting to prove to Hitler that his Luftwaffe was able to destroy the BEF from the air and prevent any evacuation.  Fortunately this didn't happen and the French put up a fierce resistance allowing Op Dynamo to be completed reasonably succefully.

 

The other factors also came into play which were to have repercussions for the Germans later on in the year was the decision not to station Spitfires on mainland Europe during the 'phony war'.  Only Hurricanes (of which the RAF had more) were sent.  Once the Blitzkreig started in earnest, The decision was made not to commit any more air assets across the channel.  This lead to some on the ground complaining that there was no fighter cover over Dunkirk, but that was unfair as the majority of the air to air combat at the time was being fought out of sight of the beachhead.  The aircraft that strafed and bombed the beaches were the minority that got through the defensive line.

 

What is not generally remembered is the defence of Calais by British and French troops.  The Germans had been a bit put out when they were repulsed at Arras, and had originally planned to run to the west and then sweep up from the coast and mop up Calais, Bologne and Dunkirk in a pincer move.

 

The French and British held Calais denying the German forces their planned move but their evacuation across the channel was thwarted by a combination of fog, bad weather and German artillery assets moving up to dominate the ground (and sea) in the Calais area.

 

The battle of Arras where the French and British pushed back the German forces was a bit of a wake up call to German commanders.  The Blitzkreig relied on open ground and a fast moving attacking force over a fairly narrow front.  This made the German forces extremely vulnerable to a flank attack.  What couldn't be risked was a strong force of allied armour punching into the rear and wreaking havoc with the following logistic and support units which would cut the armoured units supply chain and if they couldn't get resupplied would run out of fuel and ammunition; They would be finished.  The Germans were also heavily reliant on horses for their logistic troops which meant that they had to stop every so often to allow the supply chain to catch up.

 

So instead of trying to roll up the coast from the west then took the time to consolidate their positions rather than make an all out assault on the Dunkirk pocket. After all Hermann and his fly boys were going to finish it all for them!

 

The Germans never got over their logistic issues as they were to find to their cost in North Africa, Russia and even in the Ardennes in 1944.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

[simontaylor484]

2 hours ago, Winslow Boy said:

Someone more knowledgeable than I may be able to help here but I do seem to recall that the French did actually rout the Germans in a tank battle in 1940 s at one point but because of insufficient armour they were unable to follow through. If I'm recalling it correctly it had something to do with fact that the French tanks were better armed than the German ones and were able to knock them out at greater range.

 

. It was because of this and the British 17 pounder that resulted in the development of the tiger and panther tanks both of which were far superior to anything the allies were able to produce at that time.

I do believe there was an opening French attack into the Saarland area that petered out.

 

My Grandad (Dads side) fought in North Africa and up through Italy they would often holiday there he liked the country and people tgat much 

[simontaylor484]

Just had a quick search and found this

 

 

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

.  The Germans were also heavily reliant on horses for their logistic troops which meant that they had to stop every so often to allow the supply chain to catch up.

 

They still were in 1944 too. My father said there were so many dead horses in the roads in Normandy during the Falaise Gap battle. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

3 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Yes the Char B's which were heavily armoured and IIRC had a big sponson mounted main gun. Their commander was a certain Charles de Gaulle, they rattled the Germans as did British Matildas at Arras led by a certain Bernard Montgomery.  It is thought that these two reversals are why the German columns stopped st the channel coast and didn't take Dunkirk.

 

Jamie

Agreed, the standard Char B1 Bis armament is a turret mounted low velocity 37mm, used more against infantry and other pestilence, and the main armament is hull mounted 75mm low velocity howitzer. It is capable of shredding a panzer 3 at decent range, but they are huge and rather slow.
 

They were exceptional machines when they were designed in the mid 30s though. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

This afternoon as been spent bedding in the engine, at least it was until it threw the rear right crankpin. Should be an easy fix.

 

Heres what it looked like though.

 

 

[figworthy]

14 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Series Land Rovers have door seals? 

 

Of course they have door seals.  What no one has suggested is that they work.  My experience of ~100K miles in a variety of them is that their main function was to stop the metal bits of the doors rattling against the metal bits of the body.

 

As memory serves, the engine oil seals were only marginally more successful.  A friend referred to it as a lossy lubrication system.

 

Adrian

[Tony_S]

2 minutes ago, figworthy said:

 

As memory serves, the engine oil seals were only marginally more successful.  A friend referred to it as a lossy lubrication system.

 

That is certainly something they have solved in the new engines. 

[SM42]

16 minutes ago, figworthy said:

 

 

As memory serves, the engine oil seals were only marginally more successful.  A friend referred to it as a lossy lubrication system.

 

Adrian

 

Never needed an oil change. Just a filter now and then.

After all the oil was replaced bit by bit.

I think that was how Rover pushed service intervals out to 12,500 miles.

 

Andy

[figworthy]

27 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

That is certainly something they have solved in the new engines. 

 

Aforementioned friend was somewhat surprised to hear that they'd starting doing recalls for leaking oil seals.

 

Adrian

[SM42]

Meanwhile at SM42 Towers tidying work has stopped for Christmas.

Derogation has been approved by the management for the wall painting to be postponed till next week. 

 

Mrs SM42 is in full Christmas dinner prep mode. 

2 courses have been prepared.

Carp is being marinated 

Cakes are being baked right now  (one for us and one for a friend for a great cake swap tomorrow) and it will be all hands ( well me) to the pumps tomorrow for prepping the the rest of dinner.  

I shall be mainly helping make pierogi.

 

It is particularly galling that our plans to visit the Motherland were thwarted by getting Covid and the potential for positive tests so soon after. 

This has not been helped by some non vaxed but recovered friends travelling out yesterday and not even being checked at the French border despite the new entry restrictions. 

 

Looks like it's Carol singing via WhatsApp again this year.  

 

Elsewhere, in the West Wing  tidying has turned up a project I put on the back burner a while back and I have been tinkering with it again this evening. 

This is a Hornby 47 I started to "improve" probably around 1984. 

I know there is better out there now, but where is the fun in that?

 

Glacial  projects are a speciality at the Towers. 

 

First up,  is update the body detail and try and rectify the damage I did all those years ago removing those body side livery guides

 

I wonder if the motor still works?

 

Andy

 

PS. Don't anyone hold their breath expecting this 47 to be finished soon

Edited December 23, 2021 by SM42
Add PS

[pH]

8 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The supposed "walkover" of Italian forces may have contributed to the disgraceful reference to British Forces in the Italian campaign as the "D-Day Dodgers". 

Allied Forces - there were many other armies represented and similarly slighted.

[pH]

Today's quiz - what is this? It's in a residential neighbourhood.

 

 

 

A clue - I wouldn't be supposed to post this in the 'Early Risers' topic.

Edited January 30, 2023 by pH

[Florence Locomotive Works]

16 minutes ago, pH said:

Today's quiz - what is this? It's in a residential neighbourhood.

 

 

 

 

A clue - I wouldn't be supposed to post this in the 'Early Risers' topic.

The original western terminus of the CPRR?

[pH]

2 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The original western terminus of the CPRR?

 

Not even in the same municipality.