Have your say with Rapido

[darrel]

Still the glen would be a very nice model for you to do if the jones goods sells well. 

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Combe Martin said:

How about some accurate Milk Tankers Rapido !  

 

No competition, its not that difficult.  Do two chassis, one the ex GWR/BR version, the other the ex LMS one.

On the ex GWR/BR put 6 tank supports, and put 4 on the ex LMS.   Unigate/United Dairies Cow & Gate used 'half tank straps', Express Dairies used full wrap round straps.  Then tank ladders/'climbing frames/platforms' in different positions.

 

There's plenty of preserved ones to look at, just be careful you don't do a hybrid used in later life for something not milk.  They're easy enough to spot, eg a tank from an ex LMS (4 supports) on a GWR underframe (6 supports), and besides, the current owners usually know whether theirs is original or a 'hotch potch'.

 

And beware of preservation era bogus liveries !

 

And ... there is a much greater Milk Tanker expert on here too.  I'm sure they know who they could consult !

 

Agree but remember some of us model the times before BR so you don't need all those "ex"s in your request! 🙂

 

Rapido have revolutionised the humble open wagon by moving on from generic, chunky underframes, generic brakes, wrong wheelbases, etc., and they could do the same for milk tankers, which were a huge part of the railway scene both pre and post war.

 

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Agree but remember some of us model the times before BR so you don't need all those "ex"s in your request! 🙂

 

Rapido have revolutionised the humble open wagon by moving on from generic, chunky underframes, generic brakes, wrong wheelbases, etc., and they could do the same for milk tankers, which were a huge part of the railway scene both pre and post war.

 

The same entreaty - verbatim - has been posted on at least two other manufacturers' RMweb pages.

[Combe Martin]

Yes, this was an attempt to widen the request/discussion to several manufacturers.  A while back I put a topic about this on the Hornby thread hoping that the other manufacturers would also read it as there isn't a general 'wish list' place 'from anyone' on here, but that gradually faded.  There is only the official 'wishlist' organised by Brian and his Poll Team, but that dosnt provide a forum for background/discussion and 'reasons why' from the 'punters'.  Lots of the manufacturers have a 'what do you want from XYZ' topic where everyone puts their 'oar' in but there's no common place.

 

It was prompted this morning by Bachmann's latest announcement of what they're producing in the coming months, and reading through it, and theres a lot ... well nothing there. I had hoped that Bachmann would 'pickup the challenge', afterall they're well established in the UK now and must have plenty of expert contacts, but nothing yet. 

 

All someone has to do is announce that 'we're going to produce milk tanks on a, for example an LMS chassis.  The chassis are the same, its just what's above them that's different. They don't need to identify which diagram, there's plenty. If any one else was inclined to also do a milk tank that lets them decide on doing a GW/BR chassis one, or even a Southern or LNER one, and so avoid potential duplication..

Edited May 2 by Combe Martin

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

Just to put some more context into the above, we listed six different style Milk Tank Wagons and two Milk Tank Trucks in The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022.

 

Below is how they fared (number of votes in left column) :

 

In the Top 50

235      Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler in centre GWR/SR/LMS/LNER/BR (29+ diagrams) 

149      Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder off-centre, small platform GWR/SR/LNER/BR 

149      Milk Tank Truck 6-wh 20ft 6in. 4-wh Milk Road Tanker Trailer load GWR/SR/LMS/LNER

 

High Polling

116       Milk Tank Truck 6-wh 24ft 6in. 6-wh Milk Road Tanker Trailer load, GWR/LMS/LNER (4 diagrams)

115       Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler one end, GWR (Diag.O57) 

108       Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 2000-gall. Ladder & filler in centre, LMS/LNER (Diag.1992 & Diag.222) 

 

Middle Polling (both were at the high end of the segment, close to High Polling)

91        Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladders each end, twin tank/compartment, GWR (3 diagrams) 

86        Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler one end, sloping tank, BR-built (3 diagrams) 

 

The Poll Team itself has made a fairly detailed study of the subject - it has its complexities but, as noted by my good friend Combe Martin above, there are rewards for any maker.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Wickham Green too]

Did you analyse how that translated into numbers of vehicles rather than diagrams ?

[BMacdermott]

Hello Wickham Green too

 

Yes, indeed we did.

 

However, I can't publish that here as it was it was part of a broader document submitted 'in good faith' to a maker.

 

The Hugh Longworth books - BR Pre-Nationalisation Coaching Stock Volumes 1 & 2 - hold much of the detail. But bear in mind...the devil is always in the detail and research needs to be done to get things right.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Wickham Green too]

Hmmmm .... suggests SOMEONE might be ( or might have been ) interested !

[gwrrob]

1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said:

Hmmmm .... suggests SOMEONE might be ( or might have been ) interested !

They should be , it’s low hanging fruit to a quality manufacturer.

[rapidoandy]

And there’s the problem - everyone has been suggesting it to everyone which maximises the chances of duplication….which on a wagon is akin to a manufacturer putting money in a bucket and burning it - which involves a lot less effort…..

[BMacdermott]

6 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Hmmmm .... suggests SOMEONE might be ( or might have been ) interested !

 

Hello Wickham Green too

 

You are making a broad presumption there!

 

Brian

[Combe Martin]

3 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

And there’s the problem - everyone has been suggesting it to everyone which maximises the chances of duplication….which on a wagon is akin to a manufacturer putting money in a bucket and burning it - which involves a lot less effort…..

 

So sounds like an excuse not to do one.  I did suggest that to avoid duplication someone could announce that they were going to do a tanker on one particular companies underframe without saying which tanker, they could even say they were going to do a particular dairies tanker, for example they could announce they were doing a Unigate tanker on an ex GW underframe.  That would still leave about 19 diagrams they could pick from.  That would leave about 8 diagrams that someone else could pick from of an Express Dairy tanker on an ex GW underframe.  Then of course someone else could announce a tanker on a ex LMS underframe, or even an ex SR one (though there were less of them).

Edited May 2 by Combe Martin

[rapidoandy]

Sadly I think that the people who care about having different diagrams etc are the minority. I think there is room in the market for one good milk tank - but several people certainly doubt.

 

i have lots of works drawings for SR and GWR versions in my personal collection and do look at them. I also suspect they will be expensive to produce properly which a) means people think twice about purchasing more than one and b) adds to the argument above about having more than one on the market

[Harlequin]

4 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Sadly I think that the people who care about having different diagrams etc are the minority. I think there is room in the market for one good milk tank - but several people certainly doubt.

 

i have lots of works drawings for SR and GWR versions in my personal collection and do look at them. I also suspect they will be expensive to produce properly which a) means people think twice about purchasing more than one and b) adds to the argument above about having more than one on the market

But people appreciate the accurate van and wagon diagrams that you've made. Why are milk tanks any different?

 

Can you explain why they would be more expensive to produce? Is it due to all the fine superstructure around the tank itself?

 

You held off doing a 14xx because the word was out about another company doing one so wouldn't you also know if some other tanker model was in the wind?

 

😁

[rapidoandy]

40 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

But people appreciate the accurate van and wagon diagrams that you've made. Why are milk tanks any different?

 

Can you explain why they would be more expensive to produce? Is it due to all the fine superstructure around the tank itself?

 

You held off doing a 14xx because the word was out about another company doing one so wouldn't you also know if some other tanker model was in the wind?

 

😁

Oh now there is a complicated set of questions which I probably shouldn’t answer on my holiday. But here goes…

 

The single most expensive part of models now is the assembly - all don’t by hand. The tankers are date from simple, with ladders, fillers, strapping, open chassis, brakes and vac gear that will all make a very large part count.

 

The chassis are often unique - on many of our wagons we have (with much planning and thought) got multiple wagons using parts we made earlier. This helps us keep costs down. But a completly unique vehicle, with lots of parts is expensive.

 

Looking at the statistics - if a model has a high RRP people will buy only one. Let’s say these come out at around £40 to £45 my suspicion is people will have one or maybe two. Where as at £32 we do see greater sales. This then translates over to  having multiple

diagrams. People I suspect won’t buy two of each diagram - but instead maybe one. There’s a finite number of sales out there and they then get split between two manufacturers for a broadly similar wagon - not good for either party there.

 

As for knowing what we are all doing. Certain people and certain companies talk to each other - but many don’t so there is no certainty. With the 14xx we were approached and asked if we had started it (because of Titfield and the logic that we would have done it). We had not at the time (but being honest we were about to) and the other party said ‘phew - we have!’ So we left them to it…

 

Hopefully some of that makes sense? Now I shall return to the family and some rollercoasters. 😀

[Combe Martin]

I understand your arguments, but I would add the following. 

 

There needs to be at least 2 tankers, one Unigate and one Express Dairies.  The tank tops (what's above the chassis) are very different, but they can be on the same chassis, no need to tool up 2 different ones. That could be either an ex-GWR or ex-LMS.   Do one and leave the other to someone else.

 

The chassis detail underneath, I would be quite happy if what I cant see without turning it upside down is left off, equally If I cant see it without getting my eyes down to track level then leave that off, though I don't know if that's possible.  Certainly I know there is plenty underneath.  On the Hornby thread about this, a very skilled modeller has shown pictures of the underside of his tankers, lots of brass bits all soldered up, very nice but could some of it be left out.   I think his might have been mods to an O gauge Dapol tanker.

 

Tankers from the two dairies didnt meet at the dairy, the tank fillers on top had different fittings so for example you would'nt see an Express Dairy tanker at a Unigate Dairy, yes I know there are the odd pictures, maybe a marshalling error somewhere), but they could be on the same train up to a London discharge point.  So it depends on what you'r modelling, personally I'm modelling Bailey Gate on the Somerset & Dorset which has a big Unigate Dairy, so I wouldnt buy an Express Dairy tanker, but others will model the main line and have a mixed train.  I would though buy both Ex-GWR and Ex-LMS underframed tankers (and several of each), both were seen at Bailey Gate. And my wife would be very pleased because she could buy me more for Xmas ! 

 

What I would say is that because Express Dairy tankers always had a central ladder, then make a Unigate tanker with a frame/side platform at one end.  These can also be turned round so they look different.

 

Right, I'm off to Bristol for the show now, 2 days and not coming back till tomorrow evening.  I'm off to see my friend on here Tinglytim with his Templecombe Lower layout.

I'll re-join the argument on Sunday morning probably.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3 by Combe Martin

[Edwardian]

On 30/04/2024 at 13:39, rapidoandy said:

Sounds like something an enterprising retailer of publisher should commission….

 

Yes, if only there was a publisher interested in doing fictitious blue liveries of saddle tanks you'd announced. 

 

[Legend]

On 02/05/2024 at 06:49, darrel said:

Dear Rapido. When you were 3D scanning the Jones goods, you may have seen all the other nice steam locos next to it in the riverside museum. Fingers crossed you scanned them as well. If not please go back with the scanner. 

In particular Glen Douglas would be very nice to have. 

Oh and there are a lot of nice Glasgow trams there if you could aim the scanner in their direction that would also be very welcome. 

 

 

Oh Yes !  Lovely Glen Douglas .And why do made up blue locos when you could have a lovely Blue Caley Dunalastair . And we know Jason likes buses . A nice Scottish Bus Group, Alexander D bodywork Daimler Fleetline 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

... With the 14xx ... because of Titfield ... we left them to it…

Don't tell me their model's actually built on a Land Rover !

[Harlequin]

6 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

I understand your arguments, but I would add the following. 

 

There needs to be at least 2 tankers, one Unigate and one Express Dairies.  The tank tops (what's above the chassis) are very different, but they can be on the same chassis, no need to tool up 2 different ones. That could be either an ex-GWR or ex-LMS.   Do one and leave the other to someone else.

 

The chassis detail underneath, I would be quite happy if what I cant see without turning it upside down is left off, equally If I cant see it without getting my eyes down to track level then leave that off, though I don't know if that's possible.  Certainly I know there is plenty underneath.  On the Hornby thread about this, a very skilled modeller has shown pictures of the underside of his tankers, lots of brass bits all soldered up, very nice but could some of it be left out.   I think his might have been mods to an O gauge Dapol tanker.

 

Tankers from the two dairies didnt meet at the dairy, the tank fillers on top had different fittings so for example you would'nt see an Express Dairy tanker at a Unigate Dairy, yes I know there are the odd pictures, maybe a marshalling error somewhere), but they could be on the same train up to a London discharge point.  So it depends on what you'r modelling, personally I'm modelling Bailey Gate on the Somerset & Dorset which has a big Unigate Dairy, so I wouldnt buy an Express Dairy tanker, but others will model the main line and have a mixed train.  I would though buy both Ex-GWR and Ex-LMS underframed tankers (and several of each), both were seen at Bailey Gate. And my wife would be very pleased because she could buy me more for Xmas ! 

 

What I would say is that because Express Dairy tankers always had a central ladder, then make a Unigate tanker with a frame/side platform at one end.  These can also be turned round so they look different.

 

Right, I'm off to Bristol for the show now, 2 days and not coming back till tomorrow evening.  I'm off to see my friend on here Tinglytim with his Templecombe Lower layout.

I'll re-join the argument on Sunday morning probably.

 

 

 

 

 

Asking for a feature set that suits you in particular is not going to encourage a manufacturer to produce a model.

 

A better approach is to think like a manufacturer and work out the minimal tooling that would be attractive to the widest audience, bearing in mind contemporary expectations of levels of detail.

 

Edited May 3 by Harlequin

[BMacdermott]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

A better approach is to think like a manufacturer and work out the minimal tooling that would be attractive to the widest audience, bearing in mind contemporary expectations of levels of detail.

 

Hello Phil

 

I'm not 'seeking medals' nor disagreeing with Combe Martin's approach, but the document we submitted to the maker was exactly as you describe. We live in hope that it will convince them.🙂

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[rapidoandy]

And again here lies a problem - knowing that a document has been submitted to another manufacturer lessens the chances to a degree. Now I know others have been given a research package but don’t know if they will take it forward or not - leaving me to err on the side of caution and not touch it with a barge pole. However if the other manufacturer decides it’s not for them I will never know and it will never get produced….

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

And again here lies a problem - knowing that a document has been submitted to another manufacturer lessens the chances to a degree. Now I know others have been given a research package but don’t know if they will take it forward or not - leaving me to err on the side of caution and not touch it with a barge pole. However if the other manufacturer decides it’s not for them I will never know and it will never get produced….

...  Hattons told us they wouldn't produce the 12T crane.  😀

[BMacdermott]

Hello rapidoandy

 

The 00 Poll Team will empathise with you there...our hobby has a fair number of makers working within a fairly limited range of possible products (if they are to be profitable).

 

Just because we submitted a document to the maker, we don't know if they have had other documents from others. Our policy is that any document we send is 'in confidence' to that maker only (unless they were to give us a direct note of 'not interested').

 

This may sound like we are 'submitting documents' all over the place!

 

But we have only prepared a comparative handful over the years - some have contributed to  successful outcomes; others are gathering dust in a file.🙂

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

 

Edited May 4 by BMacdermott

[NHY 581]

Thought Rapido's presence at the Bristol show was first class. 

 

Corbs, Dan and Chris were really good company and a great advert for Rapido. Knowledgeable, enthusiastic and articulate. Add in the chance to look over the forthcoming Port of Par twins, E1, 01, Fireless etc etc and my day was made. 

 

Roll on Maidstone I say !!

 

Top stuff. 

 

Rob