KR Models announced intention: Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon'

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

A couple of points occur to me. firstly I wonder, genuinely, if KR knew what valvegear is when they started this project?  Or is the EP someway short of the production model in this respect?  Only KR can clarify that

 

 

 

Looking at the sample, I cannot help but wonder if KR started out with the intention of producing working Gooch gear, but found they could not make it work and decided, somewhat rashly, to pass off what they had as "fully working valve gear".

 

If so, that strikes me as odd and unwise in equal measure, but I cannot otherwise understand why KR has produced various rods with holes to attach the missing central crank, as if it was intended to be there as a working part, rather than produce some cosmetic representation of the missing part.

 

Of course my hope is that the valve gear we've seen is simply unfinished and will be completed in working form, but against this we have KR itself, insisting both on its Youtube channel and more than once on its Facebook page that it has produced valve gear that all works for all to see on its sample. 

 

 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Secondly with existing examples of models with working outside Gooch (or Stephenson) valvegear available in. HO r-t-r it isn't  unreasonable to say that if someone says they are going to deliver it on an 00 model then that is what they will do (notwithstanding in the case of Bally Ruffian the additional problem presented by that very long, fairly small diameter, radius rod).   If it really were to have working valvegear it would be a very attractive model for me - at present it isn't.

 

Well, yes, the Gooch valve gear is such a signature feature of the prototype and looks so obviously wrong when static or not moving correctly on the sample when running, that one would assume a model would reproduce it as a working feature and it's a significantly less attractive model if the valve gear does not work fully or propoerly.

 

The other point is I think the more serious as it goes beyond lost sales to the discerning buyer but to whether KR is making misleading claims. If, in the context of this prototype, known for its elaborate valve gear, a claim is made that "all" the "valve gear" is "fully working" when it's not, I think that is highly misleading. Only by watching how the valve gear moves on the prototype is it clear that the claims are inaccurate, whereas KR is inviting customers to take them on trust when KR claims that the Youtube and Facetube videos shows all the gear fully working, which is absolutely not the case. 

 

As to what KR means by the working valve gear, here is another version of the claim:

 

 

No one could sensibly take the reference to "the very complex working valve gear" to refer simply to the the motion of a connecting rod to piston on a model of an outside cylinder locomotive as this is common to models of all such protoypes and cannot be considered complex by the standards of this hobby.

 

Surely it can only refer to the Gooch valve gear, of which the video clip shows only a part of it partially working, and producing the wrong motion, and most of it entirely static. 

 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

One further point occurs to me.  With their very promising looking new Black 5 would Hornby ever tackle the Stephenson valvegear version and what would it be like?  It would probably, of necessity, come with a premium price because of the added assembly complexitt but I'd definitely buy one of those IF the valvegear worked (even if it's set in mid gear)

 

 

While I'm all for Great Western design, I don't model the LMS, so I'd have to give any Black Five a miss!

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Edwardian
spelling

[BVMR21]

If KR Models were to say it was a deliberate choice due to design reasons it would be fine I think. It really does come down to communication between Manufacturers and Modellers, it does seem this has been somewhat lacking in regards to Bellerophon and probably other projects, the Newsletters are rather infrequent, the communications that you do get are rather blunt (which would be fine if it were informative at the same time), I think I may well be steering clear of KRM in future if Bellerophon is a total flop. 
Would have to check but aren’t there advertising rules as well? 

[HExpressD]

I spose just wait and see when someone who has seen the model can tell us. I can't say its a deal breaker for me but also understand it would be nice to have.

 

I'm waiting for the reviews to decide whether or not to get one, which I understand can be a risk with not being able to get one but you takes your chances and all that

[BVMR21]

Does depend on whether or not having fully working valve gear is a big issue for you, won’t be for some, will for others.

Main issue for myself is that it runs well and can haul something more than nothing. 

[Bernard Lamb]

I know it is bad form to quote from you own post. However reading recent posts I looked up my first post on the subject of KR Models in the GT 3 thread almost 4 years ago. I find that little has changed. Possibly his comment about making the best models that he can and definately his comment about a 20' container coming to England and a postage charge of £4,50 or so.

 

I was quite impressed with your PR work up until this post.

Seeing how even the most experienced and knowledgeable development engineers at the main model companies, from time to time, fail to understand what a line on a drawing means, I think you are putting too much faith in your suppliers.

I will not quote any examples but the relevant threads on the forum will soon illustrate what I mean. In some cases models are produced with errors, In others long delays occur. Eight years trying to get it right in one instance is I believe the longest delay. Fourteen months you say?

If the drawings really do exist then please be aware that in many cases official drawings do not correspond to what was actually built. Several well known manufacturers have fallen into that trap.

I wish you luck, but your approach seems to me to be far too simplistic.

 Bernard

[Edwardian]

Right, well, sorry to post yet again so soon, but I have had a response from KR Models.

 

It's not clear exactly what we'll get, but there may be positive developments so I think we are still in wait-and-see mode with a move away from pessimism towards benefit of the doubt.

 

So, I am given to understand that the eccentric rods are designed to work, and briefly did on the sample, but it seems that there is more development required to allow them to do so successfilly, which I infer would be in the area of the missing crank, and that this is due to be done before the next sample.

 

This reassures me because it means that what we see in the sample is subject to revision and not likely to be the final iteration of the Gooch valve gear.

 

I must say that my thoughts had tended me towards this possibility, but I doubted it because of KR's own claims. Of course, its a matter for KR what it says publically and it's easy to be wise after the event, but it might have been better had KR not claimed that valve gear was working on the sample when it wasn't in the videos, but had instead said that the Gooch valve gear is designed to be working but elements of it remain in development, which seems to be the gist of what I've just been told.

 

So, there it is; KR have confirmed that there is a process of revision of the valve gear, which KR intends to deliver all fixed and fully functional.  

 

Good news. This seems when all is said and done to have been a communication issue rather than anything more substantial that was likely to affect the final model. We weren't to know that, of course, but I will be delighted if our concerns prove unnecessary at the end of this process.
 

So, fingers crossed and don't cancel your pre-order yet!

[Jenny Emily]

4 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

@Jenny Emily did't you get a look at this locomotive in motion at one point? If so, can you throw any light on this discussion?

The sample I was loaned is the same sample seen in KR Models’ video. It is also the same model seen in photos taken by various magazines as I believe they all took it in turns to borrow it to take photos at Warley. Certainly I saw people from Peco walking to and from their stand with it.  
 

I personally had to reassemble it when I received it as it had been damaged in transit to me. My recollection was that the motion connected to the axle did move and was fascinating to watch, but that the plastic rods didn’t appear to move. However, the big pinch of salt was that as a damaged pre production EP it may or may not represent the way the model is planned to be when released; only an employee of KR Models could enlighten us further. 
 

4 hours ago, DavidH said:

 

You're playing with fire 😁

Some special in joke you aren’t sharing with the group? 

[The Stationmaster]

Good to hear they intend to make it working (although io I;m not entirely sure what that means and will it, for eample, extend forward of the expansion link - time will tell.   However I can't see the eccentric rods looking good unless they are separately driven by their own eccentrics - obviously there is a lot of work still to do that side of the expansion link.

 

If they pull it off I for one will applaud the researcher and designer for their considerable efforts.

[AlfaZagato]

I'm curious if they were having issues with the eccentrics on the third axle.   I can't tell from the photos posted so far if they're plastic or blackened metal.   Plastic would probably be an issue.    You're reaching the limits on clean, easy molding at those clearances, I think.   Any mold line, at all, will cause issues there.   Could also explain the arms on the eccentrics being one piece.

 

Might be a small suggestion, there - add the cost for the metal eccentrics.

[Pteremy]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

If they pull it off I for one will applaud the researcher and designer for their considerable efforts.

 

And if they need help executing it right better to get that help now, while they can, rather than risk significant disappointment with the final product. 

[BVMR21]

48 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

So, there it is; KR have confirmed that there is a process of revision of the valve gear, which KR intends to deliver all fixed and fully functional.  

Great to hear, hopefully with that cleared up it’ll be worth it!

[AussieEE]

On 02/02/2023 at 02:43, Edwardian said:

So, there it is; KR have confirmed that there is a process of revision of the valve gear, which KR intends to deliver all fixed and fully functional.  

I'll still be waiting for the next EP before I commit to a order but it does make me feel hopeful.

[No Decorum]

21 hours ago, AussieEE said:

I'll still be waiting for the next EP before I commit to a order but it does make me feel hopeful.

I can’t help feeling that if KR didn’t understand how the lights should work on GT3 and the Fell, there is little chance of him understanding complicated valve gear.

[Human8984]

11 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I can’t help feeling that if KR didn’t understand how the lights should work on GT3 and the Fell, there is little chance of him understanding complicated valve gear.

in this case. i think its best we opt for a 'Wait and see' policy. Hopefully they will do the valve gear justice. Lighting and electronics are different to mechanical valve gear afterall. 

[BVMR21]

When I got an email back I got the gist of it being they’re blaming it on the damage the EP sustained in the post that it doesn’t work.

[AY Mod]

20 minutes ago, BVMR21 said:

When I got an email back I got the gist of it being they’re blaming it on the damage the EP sustained in the post that it doesn’t work.

 

When there are moving components and fixed components the latter doesn't tend to move whether they have ever been linked or not.

[Edwardian]

41 minutes ago, BVMR21 said:

When I got an email back I got the gist of it being they’re blaming it on the damage the EP sustained in the post that it doesn’t work.

 

18 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

When there are moving components and fixed components the latter doesn't tend to move whether they have ever been linked or not.

 

I paraprhased in my post, but the relevant extracts from the emails I received were:

 

The sample that we have right suffered badly on it's journey to our office from the factory.  I have attached a close up photo of the side.  We appear to have all the rods and gears in place.  The part made in brass came loose and we had a job to get it back to fit so it actually would run.  The two eccentric rods do work, but the bracket that holds them does not.  This is one of the areas that we are working on now before the next sample comes out. 

 

and 

 

The valve gear worked ok for about 2 mins when we first tried it on out track, but we didn't get on film.  These revisions are all part of the process.  We intend to deliver it all fixed and fully functional.  

 

Forgive repetition here, but I can see how the eccentric rods are intended to connect with a central crank, seemingly absent from the sample. If this is to work properly, it can only do so if the two eccentric rods are designed to work independently of one another. It is still not clear to me if this is intended. Unconnected as they are in the video to the central crank, they nose forward and back at a consistent angle as if fixed in that position. 

 

I also agree with Andy Y and others who point out that the other components of the valve gear don't look like they are designed to move at all. 

 

So, I think from this we can expect something working, but whether the intention is to make all the valve gear work, and, if so, whether KR will acheive that, is unclear to me. We will have to wait and see.

 

Based on the claims and assurances, I think I am obliged to extend KR the benefit of all this doubt intil we jknow what we're getting.

 

What I am clear about is that everything KR has said so far creates the legitimate expectation of fully working Gooch valve gear, so if we don't end up with that ....

 

 

[GWR-fan]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

The valve gear worked ok for about 2 mins when we first tried it on out track, but we didn't get on film.  These revisions are all part of the process.  We intend to deliver it all fixed and fully functional.  

 

I presume the 2 minute period of operation was on the model after it had been repaired.  It seems to me that the manufacturer has insufficient knowledge of what is actually needed to construct a fully working Gooch valve gear and is offering a representation of the mechanism.  If operational valve gear is so fragile that it did not survive a trip in the post then is it suitable for a RTR model or is additional engineering required to make the mechanism more robust?   Promises are made about accuracy of intended models,  however, in reality perhaps this is not the case.

 

[Ruston]

On 01/02/2023 at 15:43, Edwardian said:

So, there it is; KR have confirmed that there is a process of revision of the valve gear, which KR intends to deliver all fixed and fully functional.  

 

I may be going over what someone else has already mentioned but it's obvious that the valve gear on the sample is not "fully functional". The eccentrics and their rods are a single-piece moulding. If the eccentrics were separate parts that moved independently the slot in the upper rod at A would not be needed. The real thing has no such slot and it is only there on the model so that the parts can rock on the axis B. If the slot wasn't there then the whole thing would lock solid.

Even if they put in the missing expansion link then it's still not exactly "fully-functional". As far as a model is concerned, would mean that all the parts are present and mimic the movements of the prototype. To get from the present state to being fully-functional would mean connecting everything together and with two individual eccentrics instead of a single-piece moulding. In other words a complete redesign. I wonder how much that is going to add to the price?

 

[APOLLO]

The wheels on Bellerophon go round and round,
round and round,
round and round.
The wheels on Bellerophon go round and round,
all day long

 

The pistons on Bellerophon go swish, swish, swish,
swish, swish, swish,
swish, swish, swish.
The pistons on Bellerophon go swish, swish, swish,

all day long

 

The eccentrics on Bellerophon go whirling about
whirling about,
whirling about.
The eccentrics on Bellerophon  go whirling about,

all day long

 

The rods on Bellerophon open and shut,
one goes up, two go down,
the others not connected stay where they are
all day long

 

The rmweb posters wail “wah, wah, wah
wah, wah, wah,
wah, wah, wah”.
The rmweb posters wail  “wah, wah, wah”,

all day long

[APOLLO]

I've finally worked it out.

 

Dem rods, dem rods, dem connecting rods,
Dem rods, dem rods, dem connecting rods,
Dem rods, dem rods, dem connecting rods,
Now shake dem connecting rods!

The axle rods connected to the wheel rod,
The wheel rods connected to the eccentric rod,
The eccentric rods connected to the hanger rod,
Now shake dem connecting rods!

The hanger rods NOT connected to the cosmetic crank ,
The the cosmetic crank IS connected to the reversing arm
The the reversing arm MAY BE connected to the piston rod,

And finally, we're there !!!

 

Dem rods, dem rods gonna go around
Dem rods, dem rods gonna go in and out

Dem rods, dem rods gonna go up and down
Now shake dem various rods !

[Mel_H]

On 01/02/2023 at 13:34, Edwardian said:

 

 

Looking at the sample, I cannot help but wonder if KR started out with the intention of producing working Gooch gear, but found they could not make it work and decided, somewhat rashly, to pass off what they had as "fully working valve gear".

 

If so, that strikes me as odd and unwise in equal measure, but I cannot otherwise understand why KR has produced various rods with holes to attach the missing central crank, as if it was intended to be there as a working part, rather than produce some cosmetic representation of the missing part.

 

Of course my hope is that the valve gear we've seen is simply unfinished and will be completed in working form, but against this we have KR itself, insisting both on its Youtube channel and more than once on its Facebook page that it has produced valve gear that all works for all to see on its sample. 

 

 

 

Well, yes, the Gooch valve gear is such a signature feature of the prototype and looks so obviously wrong when static or not moving correctly on the sample when running, that one would assume a model would reproduce it as a working feature and it's a significantly less attractive model if the valve gear does not work fully or propoerly.

 

The other point is I think the more serious as it goes beyond lost sales to the discerning buyer but to whether KR is making misleading claims. If, in the context of this prototype, known for its elaborate valve gear, a claim is made that "all" the "valve gear" is "fully working" when it's not, I think that is highly misleading. Only by watching how the valve gear moves on the prototype is it clear that the claims are inaccurate, whereas KR is inviting customers to take them on trust when KR claims that the Youtube and Facetube videos shows all the gear fully working, which is absolutely not the case. 

 

As to what KR means by the working valve gear, here is another version of the claim:

 

 

No one could sensibly take the reference to "the very complex working valve gear" to refer simply to the the motion of a connecting rod to piston on a model of an outside cylinder locomotive as this is common to models of all such protoypes and cannot be considered complex by the standards of this hobby.

 

Surely it can only refer to the Gooch valve gear, of which the video clip shows only a part of it partially working, and producing the wrong motion, and most of it entirely static. 

 

 

While I'm all for Great Western design, I don't model the LMS, so I'd have to give any Black Five a miss!

 

 

It seems pretty clear from the CAD that KRM posted, and is still on its website, that not all rods were designed to be operational. Detail attached.
Sadly, KRM’s communications are not the best, to its detriment. I know that help has been offered on more than one occasion, but it hasn’t even been acknowledged.
Some other manufacturers are good at communications, some are outstanding, while some others occupy the same space as KRM. 

[Edwardian]

38 minutes ago, Mel_H said:

It seems pretty clear from the CAD that KRM posted, and is still on its website, that not all rods were designed to be operational. Detail attached.
Sadly, KRM’s communications are not the best, to its detriment. I know that help has been offered on more than one occasion, but it hasn’t even been acknowledged.
Some other manufacturers are good at communications, some are outstanding, while some others occupy the same space as KRM. 

 

Thank you for that. It tends to confirm my present suspicions.

 

The missing rocking crank is pictured here, connected to the ends of the eccentric rods that have holes for the purpose on the sample. It looks to me as if the eccentric rods might be designed as separate rods that function independently, but this is far from certain.

 

What seems more certain is that the rod and footplate crank, and the long valve rod, were never designed to function. These are the elements that Andy Y, I and others have said look like static mouldings. Here, even with the central crank shown, they are clearly not connected to it, which would need to be the case if they were ever intended to work.

 

This brings us back again to the question of what KR means when it talks of fully functioning valve gear. Does it mean (i) only the eccentric rods; and, in any case  (ii) does it mean the eccentric rods moving prototypically as independent components.

 

With a heavy heart I feel another email might be required. 

 

I could just leave it alone, but I'm invested. I really want this to be a model I can buy. B*gger.

[BVMR21]

I’ll be more concerned that it can actually haul stuff than actually have 100% accurate valve gear, may be a somewhat minority position but good running qualities like that of the PI Victory or Rapido Hunslet are closer to what I’m fussed about. Don’t mind if a piece is fixed or whatever, would like it if it were to be definitely shown at some point what’s going on with it but this all takes time so patience is everything.

I have heard the weight of the Bellerophon EP is less than that of an Andrew Barclay 0-4-0ST, which is normally indicative of a lower power output, but it’s not like it’ll be doing 60 wagon trains as an example so should be fine.

[Colin_McLeod]

What is needed is clarity. This hopefully will be available when KR Models get the next, improved sample.  If they then set it up on a rolling road with good lighting and clear video of what motion works and in what manner, then individuals can decide whether to buy.

 

I take @BVMR21 's point that it's important that the loco will "haul stuff". However I already have locos that do that and I would want Bellorophone to do the same, but what also matters to me is that the unusual valve gear actually works.  Otherwise it's just another wee engine and in that case I will be cancelling my order and seeking a full refund.

 

Like others have said, I'll wait and see before deciding.