Cavalex - all new Class 56 in OO

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

20 minutes ago, owentherail said:

At Ally pally maybe 

Need to let the moulds cool so they dont warp.......look at all the bother Scotty has on Star Trek and Cav and Alex dont want that........:)

Edited February 26 by ERIC ALLTORQUE

[Ultimate Model Railways]

Morning! - we just put a few remainder 56s up https://ultimatemodelrailways.com/collections/in-stock

 

These are new models that we held back for returns/replacements etc.*

 

Ones that were previously sold out are:

 

008 x1

049 x1

055 x1

120 x1

074 x1

railtour pack x1

(all DCC ready)

 

Aside from these we have 13 x 018, 8 x 019, 8 x 070, 4 x 077

 

All being well we'll do the same next Monday with a couple more, but then that's about it!

 

We also have a couple of pairs of replacement EM/P4 wheels, and we're uploading the TEA/BBA/PGAs etc today. (if you want to combine postage with an order for one of the 56s above just let us know)

 

*(If you have a current conversation with us about pre-orders/replacements/overseas etc. then those are accounted for)

[Fordbank]

12 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

Surely before chopping up a model you would first try a different coupling (something more solid than a tension lock), if not try adding some weight to the lead wagon and keep it as such?

On Peak Forest Revived the primary task of 56077 is to act as the heavy shunter to propel trains brought in by class 60s or 66s , and previously class 37s, into Dove Holes Quarry. The coupling on 56077 therefore needs to match those on the mainline locos which have hauled the hopper and box wagon trains from various destinations. On the fleet at Peak Forest revivived there are four class 66s, eleven class 37s, and seven class 60s (re-fitted with brass wire couplings). Moreover were I to change to a more solid coupling than a tension lock it would also require changing the lead and sometimes rear coupling on all the rakes of wagons hauled by the mainline locos.

Thus changing to a different and possibly better coupling, although having been considered isn't really a viable option. Besides which the tension locks work perfectly well with the 66s, 37s, and the occasional class 31.

 

 On the lengthy tests of the Hornby class 60s I tried adding additional weight to the lead wagon but provided the train loco could pull the rake it was able to pull the lead wagon off the rails when the first point after a  curve was encountered. Indeed the more weight on the train the more frequently a kinematic coupling tends to derail the lead wagon ass the greater the side force on the coupling.

  

The class 60 fleet during the replacement of the kinematic couplings. (Apologies for posting a picture of seven 60s on this class 56 thread!)

 

From a design perspective the ideal solution would be to have the possibility of locking a kinematic coupling on locomotives required to haul heavy trains. However this would doubtless throw up complications from the point of view of locating the coupling on bogie or chassis.

 

For myself the big question remains: will Cavalex have found a solution to The Kinematic Coupling Problem on the much anticipated new class 60?

 

Come on RBE!

Edited February 26 by Fordbank
Typo

[RBE]

11 minutes ago, Fordbank said:

On Peak Forest Revived the primary task of 56077 is to act as the heavy shunter to propel trains brought in by class 60s or 66s , and previously class 37s, into Dove Holes Quarry. The coupling on 56077 therefore needs to match those on the mainline locos which have hauled the hopper and box wagon trains from various destinations. On the fleet at Peak Forest revivived there are four class 66s, eleven class 37s, and seven class 60s (re-fitted with brass wire couplings). Moreover were I to change to a more solid coupling than a tension lock it would also require changing the lead and sometimes rear coupling on all the rakes of wagons hauled by the mainline locos.

Thus changing to a different and possibly better coupling, although having been considered isn't really a viable option. Besides which the tension locks work perfectly well with the 66s, 37s, and the occasional class 31.

 

 On the lengthy tests of the Hornby class 60s I tried adding additional weight to the lead wagon but provided the train loco could pull the rake it was able to pull the lead wagon off the rails when the first point after a  curve was encountered. Indeed the more weight on the train the more frequently a kinematic coupling tends to derail the lead wagon ass the greater the side force on the coupling.

  

The class 60 fleet during the replacement of the kinematic couplings. (Apologies for posting a picture of seven 60s on this class 5 thread!)

 

From a design perspective the ideal solution would be to have the possibility of locking a kinematic coupling on locomotives required to haul heavy trains. However this would doubtless throw up complications from the point of view of locating the coupling on bogie or chassis.

 

For myself the big question remains: will Cavalex have found a solution to The Kinematic Coupling Problem on the much anticipated new class 60?

 

Come on RBE!

Having examined the coupling situation we have decided (at this point) that a Kinematic coupler is necessary, however I have redesigned the couplers for both the upcoming class 60 and the second run class 56 to a design that requires much less longitudinal force to swing and recentre the mechanism. As a result the coupler has less extension but a more reliable action. Once the samples with the coupler are produced we will do heavy train testing to prove the concept.

[The Fatadder]

40 minutes ago, Fordbank said:

The class 60 fleet during the replacement of the kinematic couplings. (Apologies for posting a picture of seven 60s on this class 5 thread!)

 

A useful photo for me, seeing as my two remaining 60s have full end detail and the complete lower part (and I dont have the original kinematics / slotted part).  Modified like that I can get them all listed on ebay over the next few months in preparation for the arrival of the Cavalex replacements (and not loose out massively due to having them fitted with scale couplings)

[Fordbank]

33 minutes ago, RBE said:

Having examined the coupling situation we have decided (at this point) that a Kinematic coupler is necessary, however I have redesigned the couplers for both the upcoming class 60 and the second run class 56 to a design that requires much less longitudinal force to swing and recentre the mechanism. As a result the coupler has less extension but a more reliable action. Once the samples with the coupler are produced we will do heavy train testing to prove the concept.

I fully appreciate there are some difficult design compromises to be made. 

In the meantime thanks for a great model, and I look forward to a new class 60 perhaps even with a new design kinematic.

[NHY 581]

@RBE Can I just clarify what decoder is available off the shelf which when fitted by the user will allow all functions of this model to be utilised as per design, specifically without the need to have decoders customised. 

 

Plug and play. 

 

Rob

 

[Erixtar1992]

1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

@RBE Can I just clarify what decoder is available off the shelf which when fitted by the user will allow all functions of this model to be utilised as per design, specifically without the need to have decoders customised. 

 

Plug and play. 

 

Rob

 

Nothing.

you need an ESU Lokpilot or Loksound with the function mapping/sound project to suit. They come from ESU with the functions in a very basic setup.

 

some retailers (and soon Cavalex) offer this, just need to tell them its for the 56.

 

 

Edited February 26 by Erixtar1992

[NHY 581]

24 minutes ago, Erixtar1992 said:

Nothing.

you need an ESU Lokpilot or Loksound with the function mapping/sound project to suit. They come from ESU with the functions in a very basic setup.

 

some retailers (and soon Cavalex) offer this, just need to tell them its for the 56.

 

 

 

Sorry to sound dense, but for the avoidance of doubt are you saying that Cavalex have introduced their Class 56 and currently you cannot purchase an off the shelf decoder, fit it and then access all the inbuilt functions ? 

 

Rob

 

[The Fatadder]

16 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Sorry to sound dense, but for the avoidance of doubt are you saying that Cavalex have introduced their Class 56 and currently you cannot purchase an off the shelf decoder, fit it and then access all the inbuilt functions ? 

 

Rob

 

An off the shelf decoder will give you head light, marker lights and roof fans (with a 6 fct chip), with the chips I have to hand I’ve not managed to get more than this to work.

i haven’t got a lokpilot so not sure what you get if you use a lokpilot without the Cavalex settings, hopefully someone can advise.

 

because of the extra functionality Cavalex have incorporated, presumably in part by outsourcing the electronics design to ESU it requires a bespoke set up to get the full functionality (in the same way Accurascale locos do) 

[Fordbank]

18 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Sorry to sound dense, but for the avoidance of doubt are you saying that Cavalex have introduced their Class 56 and currently you cannot purchase an off the shelf decoder, fit it and then access all the inbuilt functions ? 

 

Rob

 

As has been stated many times above on this thread - no, you are not expected to read all 94 pages - the Cavalex 56 has a very wide range of lighting and sound functions which no "off the shelf" decoder can fully exploit. The ESU Lokpilot and Loksound simply need pre-setting to the specific functions of the Cavalex model. @RBE has posted that a dedicated bespoke ESU will be made available soon, and IIRC Rails of Sheffield will pre-figure an ESU decoder for the Cavalex 56 if requested.

 

[spamcan61]

43 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Sorry to sound dense, but for the avoidance of doubt are you saying that Cavalex have introduced their Class 56 and currently you cannot purchase an off the shelf decoder, fit it and then access all the inbuilt functions ? 

 

Rob

 

Correct.

[NHY 581]

Many thanks, all. 

 

Understood. Somewhat surprised at this decoder issue but grateful for the clarity provided by other members. 

 

Rob

[chuffinghell]

1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Sorry to sound dense….

 

No question is a silly question if you don’t know the answer 🙂
 

If I apologised every time I thought I had said something daft I be forever apologising 🤪
 

I always thought a lokpilot was a steering wheel lock for an airplane

 

Edited February 26 by chuffinghell

[RBE]

7 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Many thanks, all. 

 

Understood. Somewhat surprised at this decoder issue but grateful for the clarity provided by other members. 

 

Rob

What surprised you? The model has been made to incorporate prototype independent control of all of the lighting functions as per the real loco. It simply cannot be done with a basic decoder set up (the lights have to be programmed In such as way as to override the standard lighting etc for instance when setting it to stabling mode with reds at each end. You can set the dip switches to 'basic mode' if you like but obviously you won't get the full functionality of the lighting.

[NHY 581]

17 minutes ago, RBE said:

What surprised you? The model has been made to incorporate prototype independent control of all of the lighting functions as per the real loco. It simply cannot be done with a basic decoder set up (the lights have to be programmed In such as way as to override the standard lighting etc for instance when setting it to stabling mode with reds at each end. You can set the dip switches to 'basic mode' if you like but obviously you won't get the full functionality of the lighting.

 

I'm surprised that you've released this loco which clearly needs a bespoke decoder without ensuring that such a bespoke decoder is readily available to the customer, without a need for the customer to seemingly make their own arrangements to source and specify accordingly. 

 

Candidly, if other manufactuers can do it with their locos ( and at a very reasonable cost to the customer) why haven't you put such an arrangement in place for those purchasing your models, in this case, specifically the Class 56.  

 

With all the time and energy put into the development of this model, is it not only right and proper that every customer purchasing these models should be able to explore all the functionality that the model is capable of by having a bespoke decoder readily available to purchase ? 

 

Rob. 

Edited February 26 by NHY 581

[RBE]

3 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

I'm surprised that you've released this loco which clearly needs a bespoke decoder without ensuring that such a bespoke decoder is readily available to the customer, without a need for the customer to seemingly make their own arrangements to source and specify accordingly. 

 

Candidly, if other manufactuers can do it with their locos ( and at a very reasonable cost to the customer) why haven't you put such an arrangement in place for those purchasing your models, in this case, specifically the Class 56.  

 

With all the time and energy put into the development of this model, is it not only right and proper that every customer purchasing these models should be able to explore all the functionality that the model is capable of by having a bespoke decoder readily available to purchase ? 

 

Rob. 

We have. The file is readily available to download via the ESU website and loksound V5s are available to purchase via our retailers who are able to blow the decoders with the appropriate files. 

 

We do not sell our products directly and therefore anything needed is available through our retailers. As we don't sell direct we also do not stock decoders. We have provided the necessary files via the ESU website for anyone to either purchase a pre blown decoder from a retailer or service such as Road and Rails or for those with the necessary equipment purchase blank decoders and re-blow them themselves. It's not difficult to get hold of the right decoder.

 

The only 'issue' I see is that some people are trying to get full functionality from none ESU decoders. 

[NHY 581]

2 minutes ago, RBE said:

We have. The file is readily available to download via the ESU website and loksound V5s are available to purchase via our retailers who are able to blow the decoders with the appropriate files. 

 

We do not sell our products directly and therefore anything needed is available through our retailers. As we don't sell direct we also do not stock decoders. We have provided the necessary files via the ESU website for anyone to either purchase a pre blown decoder from a retailer or service such as Road and Rails or for those with the necessary equipment purchase blank decoders and re-blow them themselves. It's not difficult to get hold of the right decoder.

 

The only 'issue' I see is that some people are trying to get full functionality from none ESU decoders. 

 

 

Thanks for clarifying that. 

 

Rob. 

[dj_crisp]

28 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

Candidly, if other manufactuers can do it with their locos ( and at a very reasonable cost to the customer) why haven't you put such an arrangement in place for those purchasing your models, in this case, specifically the Class 56.  

 

 

I'm slightly curious as to which manufactuers have done this as I'm yet to see one myself that wouldn't need something like a lokpilot as a minimum (admittedly I haven't got a cavalex 56). 

[derekdoestrains]

28 minutes ago, dj_crisp said:

 

I'm slightly curious as to which manufactuers have done this as I'm yet to see one myself that wouldn't need something like a lokpilot as a minimum (admittedly I haven't got a cavalex 56). 

Accurascale… anyone who uses ESU electronics going forward will have this, it should be seen as a benefit to give the most prototypical lighting functions possible, something traditionally you could only get by heavily butchering the locos wiring…

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

3 hours ago, RBE said:

The only 'issue' I see is that some people are trying to get full functionality from none ESU decoders. 

If ESU decoders are required for full functionality (which they evidently are), they why is this not stated clearly to a customer before the model is purchased. Either in the description or on the box, ideally both. Not everyone is going to be on RMweb, however everyone should be entitled to this information prior to the purchase of the model.

 

3 hours ago, RBE said:

We do not sell our products directly and therefore anything needed is available through our retailers. As we don't sell direct we also do not stock decoders. We have provided the necessary files via the ESU website for anyone to either purchase a pre blown decoder from a retailer or service such as Road and Rails or for those with the necessary equipment purchase blank decoders and re-blow them themselves. It's not difficult to get hold of the right decoder. 

You provided P4 and EM Gauge wheel sets as an extra product available through retailers, how is a pre-blown decoder any different to that?

 

3 hours ago, RBE said:

What surprised you? The model has been made to incorporate prototype independent control of all of the lighting functions as per the real loco. It simply cannot be done with a basic decoder set up (the lights have to be programmed In such as way as to override the standard lighting etc for instance when setting it to stabling mode with reds at each end. You can set the dip switches to 'basic mode' if you like but obviously you won't get the full functionality of the lighting.

The tail lights are set up on separate functions anyway. Having one function button to operate both ends is no different to having both function buttons pressed together on a handset.

 

What do the dip-switches in the model actually change, and what is the basic lighting that can be expected from a fairly standard 6 function chip (F0f/r and AUX 1-4). I spent two evenings trying to get tail lights working on both Zimo and Dapol chips and had no luck in virtually every dip-switch configuration. I would certainly classify taillights under ‘basic lighting’.

Edited February 26 by Bryn_Bach_Railway

[zr2498]

I seem to recall Trains4U would set up an ESU Lokpilot 5 decoder for the Cavalex Class 56. Looks as though currently out of stock but that could be a route if so desired.

[RBE]

3 hours ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

If ESU decoders are required for full functionality (which they evidently are), they why is this not stated clearly to a customer before the model is purchased. Either in the description or on the box, ideally both. Not everyone is going to be on RMweb, however everyone should be entitled to this information prior to the purchase of the model.

An ESU Lokpilot is preferred if you want to take advantage of our pre programmed lighting control. You could do a similar setup with any programmable decoder given the knowledge of how to program them, however our expertise is with ESU Lokprogrammer and ESU themselves provided the sound and none sound projects for this loco. We can do no more than recommend the lokpilot with our file installed, the 21 pin protocol has been followed to ensure general DCC compatibility and that is as far as it needs to go. The Lokpilot and Loksound decoders are both recommended in the manual for each loco. If not using a pre programmed decoder then any 21 pin decoder, provided the dip switches are set correctly, should work the lights in a basic fashion including tail lights. The decoder to circuit board connections are standard, we haven't gone against what is expected for a 21 pin decoder setup.

 

3 hours ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

You provided P4 and EM Gauge wheel sets as an extra product available through retailers, how is a pre-blown decoder any different to that?

It's completely different. We have had to manufacture the P4 and EM wheelsets specifically for the locomotive at our factory. Therefore we have to supply the retailers with these, they can't get them from anywhere else. Lokpilot decoders are standard equipment made by ESU and in stock at most retailers. We have made the lokpilot file available to all free of charge and it makes no sense for us to purchase decoders and send them out to retailers when they already have access to these without our involvement in the procurement process.

 

3 hours ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

The tail lights are set up on separate functions anyway. Having one function button to operate both ends is no different to having both function buttons pressed together on a handset.

That's not how they work though when set up correctly. Pressing the single function deactivates the front lights and actives the reds on both ends. It also activated the red lights as directional when in light engine mode with the white lights. It's not the same as having all lights simply on their own function buttons.

 

3 hours ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

 

What do the dip-switches in the model actually change, and what is the basic lighting that can be expected from a fairly standard 6 function chip (F0f/r and AUX 1-4). I spent two evenings trying to get tail lights working on both Zimo and Dapol chips and had no luck in virtually every dip-switch configuration. I would certainly classify taillights under ‘basic lighting’.

We have had the head and tail lights working just fine with a basic decoder so don't see why they can't be made to work with those. However I will reiterate, why go through the hassle of trying to reprogram none recommended decoders for the sake of it when you can just use the recommended one straight out of the box either pre-programmed or blown yourself with the file for ESU?

[JSpencer]

19 hours ago, Fordbank said:

On Peak Forest Revived the primary task of 56077 is to act as the heavy shunter to propel trains brought in by class 60s or 66s , and previously class 37s, into Dove Holes Quarry. The coupling on 56077 therefore needs to match those on the mainline locos which have hauled the hopper and box wagon trains from various destinations. On the fleet at Peak Forest revivived there are four class 66s, eleven class 37s, and seven class 60s (re-fitted with brass wire couplings). Moreover were I to change to a more solid coupling than a tension lock it would also require changing the lead and sometimes rear coupling on all the rakes of wagons hauled by the mainline locos.

Thus changing to a different and possibly better coupling, although having been considered isn't really a viable option. Besides which the tension locks work perfectly well with the 66s, 37s, and the occasional class 31.

 

 On the lengthy tests of the Hornby class 60s I tried adding additional weight to the lead wagon but provided the train loco could pull the rake it was able to pull the lead wagon off the rails when the first point after a  curve was encountered. Indeed the more weight on the train the more frequently a kinematic coupling tends to derail the lead wagon ass the greater the side force on the coupling.

  

The class 60 fleet during the replacement of the kinematic couplings. (Apologies for posting a picture of seven 60s on this class 56 thread!)

 

From a design perspective the ideal solution would be to have the possibility of locking a kinematic coupling on locomotives required to haul heavy trains. However this would doubtless throw up complications from the point of view of locating the coupling on bogie or chassis.

 

For myself the big question remains: will Cavalex have found a solution to The Kinematic Coupling Problem on the much anticipated new class 60?

 

Come on RBE!

 

I always use Roco style couplings whenever I get this issue. It locks the mechanism and forces it to operate. (Equally graphene can help).

Edited February 27 by JSpencer

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

6 hours ago, RBE said:

An ESU Lokpilot is preferred if you want to take advantage of our pre programmed lighting control. You could do a similar setup with any programmable decoder given the knowledge of how to program them, however our expertise is with ESU Lokprogrammer and ESU themselves provided the sound and none sound projects for this loco. We can do no more than recommend the lokpilot with our file installed, the 21 pin protocol has been followed to ensure general DCC compatibility and that is as far as it needs to go. The Lokpilot and Loksound decoders are both recommended in the manual for each loco. If not using a pre programmed decoder then any 21 pin decoder, provided the dip switches are set correctly, should work the lights in a basic fashion including tail lights. The decoder to circuit board connections are standard, we haven't gone against what is expected for a 21 pin decoder setup.

If that is the case, then why during Model Rail Scotland was I informed by your own team that esu is required to access all function outputs. Before I’d even finished fully explaining the issue I was having. It either is, or it isn’t. Even if it’s just recommended, why isn’t it advertised prior to purchase of the model. 
 

as for other decoders, as far as I’m aware only esu and Zimo make decoders that can access upto AUX10. And your model will only work properly work with one. As I’ve documented decently well on this thread, the decoder itself is confirmed to be working in other models and can operate F0f/r, Aux1, Aux2 & Aux10 without issue. However your model won’t respond when the decoder try’s to activate Aux3, Aux4, Aux5, Aux6, or Aux7, despite these working fine in other models.

 

Its all well and good saying other decoders can be programmed to work just like an esu chip, however if there isn’t another decoder that can access all the functions then that point is completely irrelevant.

 

6 hours ago, RBE said:

It's completely different. We have had to manufacture the P4 and EM wheelsets specifically for the locomotive at our factory. Therefore we have to supply the retailers with these, they can't get them from anywhere else. Lokpilot decoders are standard equipment made by ESU and in stock at most retailers. We have made the lokpilot file available to all free of charge and it makes no sense for us to purchase decoders and send them out to retailers when they already have access to these without our involvement in the procurement process.

It makes no sense for a manufacturer to recommend a specific decoder set up, but only have this set up available either by special request to a retailer or to have to program it yourself. You’ve purchased and blown sound decoders for sound fitted models, you could do the same with standard DCC ones too. You’ve already gone out of the way to provide the EM and P4 wheels sets which are a much more involved process. Expecting your retailers to provide pre-setup decoders just because they already have the basics for it is not ok. Why should they have to go to the extra hassle of blowing decoders for your model when you don’t even provide them yourself.

 

6 hours ago, RBE said:

That's not how they work though when set up correctly. Pressing the single function deactivates the front lights and actives the reds on both ends. It also activated the red lights as directional when in light engine mode with the white lights. It's not the same as having all lights simply on their own function buttons.

All your function mapping is doing is reducing the amount of steps needed by the user to get the same result of prototypical lighting. All the lights are on different outputs and as such, can be activated in any way the user wishes (provided their decoder can operate all the functions). Without mapping, if a user wants depot lights, they can turn all the lights off except the two tail light outputs. If they want tail lights on when moving, then that can pick which end they are needed and just turn on them plus the headlights and markers etc. Dapol locos have worked like this for a little while now and can access pretty much all lighting combinations too (I believe only the cab light is determined by a switch inside the model) yes your pre-mapped decoder makes this a simpler process, but the same result is possible without any mapping.

 

6 hours ago, RBE said:

We have had the head and tail lights working just fine with a basic decoder so don't see why they can't be made to work with those. However I will reiterate, why go through the hassle of trying to reprogram none recommended decoders for the sake of it when you can just use the recommended one straight out of the box either pre-programmed or blown yourself with the file for ESU?

What decoder were you using and how were the dip-switches set, as I was only able to get the dip-switches to act as a manual override for either the functions being activated by the decoder, or completely off. 
 

there is not a decoder straight out of the box that operates all functions. Even the recommended esu chip would not activate certain functions until programmed. Having to specially request decoders from a retailer is not ‘out of the box’ either.

 

many people will have tried to get other decoders to work as they already have these decoders around, and if they have enough functions then there’s no reason why they shouldn’t work and yet they still don’t. Why is it seen as a bad thing for others to want different decoders to work when you don’t even provide one set for your model.
 

at the end of the day, you’ve brought a model to the market which requires a specific pre-programmed decoder. However you have not provided this decoder yourselves, and are instead expecting your retailers to fill in the gap instead. If you can not provide the decoders yourself like you have for the P4 and EM Gauge wheel sets, then you can not expect your customers to go out of their way to obtain them either.