Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[MoonM]

20 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

I think that is the point.  The new Hornby black five as cost a lot of budget to develop and I am guessing Hornby will expect it to be paid back. Bachmann's models have become pricey in the last few years - relative to other manufactrurers, and it is noticeable the class 31s from Bachmann are more or less pegged at a similar price to Accurascale. 

The business environment is changing. Hornby and Bachmann have huge operational costs (ie people, processes and business practices) that are hugely inefficient relative to competition that has fewer people and smaller overheads. Hence accurascale and other new entrants can work on a lower gross profit margin than existing participants as they will be impacted by lower operational costs before getting to the net profit margin figure. Bachmann will have had to reduce their gross profit margin to something more akin to accurascale's on the class 31 to just be competitive. I do wish Hornby (and Bachmann, and other sleepy manufacturers) would get more brutal in cutting unnessesary operational costs to become competitive again. Yes that will be hard on some people in redundant roles, but the consequence of not doing this will be the whole business folding (therefore affecting all people in all roles, not just some of the people in some roles). Hornby skimping on QC and exploring innovations where not needed is an example of corporate mismanagement in my eyes - turning a blind eye to the real issues and instead trying to skimp in other areas (eg QC) and try an justify a higher price for features not needed. I wish the company was better run as it is in the interests of all of us (competitors and us customers) for Hornby to survive 

[Silver Sidelines]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

.. And in some cases it's debatable whether the newer model has moved anything on. The Heljan 45 was excellent in parts but overall I really don't think it any better than the  older Bachmann model (if anything Bachmann got the body profile better). This Black 5 is in that category, I am really struggling to see a reason why this is better than the old model and a couple of reasons to see it as a step backwards. 

 

 

It always puzzled me why Heljan thought we needed a new Peak.  I was equally baffled with the Accurascale Deltics.  Then if we look at the Manors there is much to puzzle over and to question why Bachmann never updated their model.

 

As to Sam I am puzzled by his statement that the Hornby model will haul 20 coaches.  His coaches look like trucks to me.  Have I missed something?  He does say the haulage is similar to the new 2MT so 20 trucks would be about right.

 

I doubt there are many steam outline models out there that will haul twenty coaches.  The Accurascale Manor is quite impressive but not that good....

 

Cheers Ray

 

 

Edited April 21 by Silver Sidelines

[GenericRMWebUsername]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

But it was true of his which didn’t work !  I’m fed up with people apologising for manufacturers . If you spend £200 + on something you expect it to work . Good on Sam for calling Hornby out . Only by doing so might they consider upping their QC .   We have all been there . Testing a new loco that doesn’t work or runs like a croc . It happens more times than it should 

But again, he didn't claim his model was faulty. He described the Hornby Black 5 as "horribly faulty," which is untrue. His example did have faults, but that does make the model inherently "horribly faulty." Criticizing quality control is totally fair, but you don't label an entire product "horribly faulty" unless there is strong evidence. Why? Because you can't prove the claim as true. 

 

You can critique Hornby (I agree that their QC could improve!), while also avoiding statements that verge on lies. 

 

6 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

If you logic stands, would it be equally unfair for somebody to label it as "Hornby's best/finest/ultimate Black 5"? This suggests the product is somehow inherently faultless, while others have had the product and found issues with it. Following your logic, would this claim be misleading and untrue?

 

When everybody has no more than a single data point, what do you realistically expect them to do? The amount of right to compliment a product using a single data point should be balanced by an equal amount of right to criticise the product using a single data point.

 

From the audience's perspective, the solution to overcome the "single data point" problem is simply to watch multiple reviews. If a person relies on a single source for reviews, whilst perfectly aware other sources are available, that person only have him/herself to blame.

This is not an apples to apples comparison. If I say "Hornby's Black 5 is the best Black 5 ever", I'm basing that on certain elements of the product that are consistent across all Hornby Black 5s. For example, I can praise the separately fitted details, the choices in livery application, and the features. Those are all elements of the product that are consistent across all Hornby Black 5s. Similarly, a fair criticism that Sam made in the review was about the flywheel. The omission of the flywheel is something that impacts all new Hornby Black 5s everywhere. Even hostile titles like "Hornby's Black 5- An Underwhelming Model" or "Hornby's Black 5- Not Worth the Money" would be completely justified on the part of a reviewer.

 

Instead, he made the extraordinary claim that Hornby's new Black 5 is "horribly faulty," with no evidence besides his single model. That's where he demonstrates overt hostility. 

[ColinB]

2 minutes ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

But again, he didn't claim his model was faulty. He described the Hornby Black 5 as "horribly faulty," which is untrue. His example did have faults, but that does make the model inherently "horribly faulty." Criticizing quality control is totally fair, but you don't label an entire product "horribly faulty" unless there is strong evidence. Why? Because you can't prove the claim as true. 

 

You can critique Hornby (I agree that their QC could improve!), while also avoiding statements that verge on lies. 

 

This is not an apples to apples comparison. If I say "Hornby's Black 5 is the best Black 5 ever", I'm basing that on certain elements of the product that are consistent across all Hornby Black 5s. For example, I can praise the separately fitted details, the choices in livery application, and the features. Those are all elements of the product that are consistent across all Hornby Black 5s. Similarly, a fair criticism that Sam made in the review was about the flywheel. The omission of the flywheel is something that impacts all new Hornby Black 5s everywhere. Even hostile titles like "Hornby's Black 5- An Underwhelming Model" or "Hornby's Black 5- Not Worth the Money" would be completely justified on the part of a reviewer.

 

Instead, he made the extraordinary claim that Hornby's new Black 5 is "horribly faulty," with no evidence besides his single model. That's where he demonstrates overt hostility. 

His one was horribly faulty, it didn't run. So actually the title is absolutely correct.  Most people would go to Facebook tell everyone else, then approach the Retailer for a refund/replacement. I just bought a DCC decoder that doesn't work properly, the first assumption by the supplier will be I blew it up (the guy that sold me the duff sound decoder the periodically lost sound going forward, did exactly that), when in actual fact I spent about an hour checking my loco before I fitted it. Assuming I can get it replaced I have the aggro of writing the return letter, packing it up and driving down the Post Office to send it back, Sam I imagine will be doing the same with his loco. It is a pain.  As to the flywheel, most new models have them, a lot of them Hornby, so he is right to identify that failing, especially given the price.

[GenericRMWebUsername]

10 minutes ago, ColinB said:

His one was horribly faulty, it didn't run. So actually the title is absolutely correct.  Most people would go to Facebook tell everyone else, then approach the Retailer for a refund/replacement. I just bought a DCC decoder that doesn't work properly, the first assumption by the supplier will be I blew it up (the guy that sold me the duff sound decoder the periodically lost sound going forward, did exactly that), when in actual fact I spent about an hour checking my loco before I fitted it. Assuming I can get it replaced I have the aggro of writing the return letter, packing it up and driving down the Post Office to send it back, Sam I imagine will be doing the same with his loco. It is a pain.  As to the flywheel, most new models have them, a lot of them Hornby, so he is right to identify that failing, especially given the price.

Again, a statement like "Hornby's new Black 5 is horribly faulty" requires evidence. He has no evidence to support such a claim, besides his single model. If he had simply said that his model was defective or poorly manufactured, no one would be complaining. I would actually agree! But he made an extraordinary claim. Here's another example. Chadwick Model Railway got a defective Class 37 from Accurascale. Would it be fair for him to title a video about Accurascale's excellent Class 37 as "Accurascale's Horribly Faulty New Class 37"? Absolutely not. His example had problems that were not impacting all models. 

['CHARD]

There are a few people on here who either a) don't really understand how media works or b) are deliberately being pedantic for some unknowable purpose.

 

A video caption/ strap-line, title or whatever is designed to attract a potential viewer's attention. That's all. It is a sales tool. Not an offer to treat or a contractually binding gentleman's agreement.

 

When the invasion of Afghanistan kicked off, the Scottish Sun led with the awesomely witty and punning 'Irn Fist.' I'm not going to explain the etymology for the hapless amongst us, except to point out that neither a soft drink made by Barrs, or a mis-spelt Motörhead album from 1982 were being described.

 

Get. Over. It.

[ColinB]

37 minutes ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

Again, a statement like "Hornby's new Black 5 is horribly faulty" requires evidence. He has no evidence to support such a claim, besides his single model. If he had simply said that his model was defective or poorly manufactured, no one would be complaining. I would actually agree! But he made an extraordinary claim. Here's another example. Chadwick Model Railway got a defective Class 37 from Accurascale. Would it be fair for him to title a video about Accurascale's excellent Class 37 as "Accurascale's Horribly Faulty New Class 37"? Absolutely not. His example had problems that were not impacting all models. 

I think the big difference is Accurascale would be deeply concerned about that and probably would do everything in its power to correct it, so most people will give them a lot of leeway. Now if my HD loco is anything to go by, Hornby will bicker for two months in my case, before they correct it (photos, you name it, they wanted it). I actually felt sorry for the Retailer for having to put up with it. As they said if they had been allocated enough they would have given me another one, without all the pain.

Edited April 21 by ColinB

[Delta_Who]

8 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

To be fair, he entitled the video:

Hornby's Horribly Faulty New Black 5

 

This suggests that the product is somehow inherently faulty. Others have had the product, and have not found any issues. That title is misleading and damaging. It's making a claim that is untrue. If he had labeled it "The Faults with my Hornby Black 5," it would have been accurate. But instead, he suggests the entire product is "horribly faulty." Who is going to buy a "horribly faulty" locomotive? 

 

Criticism of Hornby is totally fine, but I think it's unfair to label an entire product "horribly faulty" when you have a single data point. 

 

I think this sums it up, and it seems to be more profitable for Sam lately to take potshots at Hornby. Critique is fine if you don't like the gimmicks, but I don't really see anything that is lesser than some of the other top regarded models today (especially ones that seem prone to crumbling parts). And any other person would probably have sent it away to Hornby repairs department.

[ColinB]

16 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

 

I think this sums it up, and it seems to be more profitable for Sam lately to take potshots at Hornby. Critique is fine if you don't like the gimmicks, but I don't really see anything that is lesser than some of the other top regarded models today (especially ones that seem prone to crumbling parts). And any other person would probably have sent it away to Hornby repairs department.

If they had sent it to the repairs department, after they had wanted documentary evidence that there was something wrong (see my post), they would have probably just fixed the faulty tender connector. The wonky parts would have been left and there is no way they could remove the glue. I suppose if you are lucky they might replace the body but I doubt it. 

[spamcan61]

19 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

A video caption/ strap-line, title or whatever is designed to attract a potential viewer's attention. That's all. It is a sales tool. Not an offer to treat or a contractually binding gentleman's agreement.

 

 

We understand why he's doing it, that doesn't make it a meaningful contribution to a review of the item in question, quite the opposite. He plays to the gallery for clicks, and is obviously successful at that, it just makes it even less likely that I can be bothered to fast forward through the 90% waffle of his videos to find the useful information that's in there somewhere. 

Edited April 22 by spamcan61

[Cor-onGRT4]

The YouTubers who made reviews are only just a guideline for me.

I can see what's in the box, how it looks, what you get, and get for myself an total impression.

When you are  on the other side of the Nordsee, its not easy to come over to the UK to see how an model

looks in the real.

So You Tube reviews gives me the possibillity to get a close look.

But I make the decision if I want it or not, not the results of the review, because these are an personal thaught and conclusion

of the reviewer,and not mine.

Therefore I search for different reviews to get an total impression and some reviewers show more of the model than others and 

from different angles.

If I had to make conclussions after reviews from Sam, I would have to let go half of the models I bought.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

...The omission of the flywheel is something that impacts all new Hornby Black 5s everywhere...

Universal provision of a DCC decoder socket makes them redundant, now that the majority of those that run their RTR OO purchases do so using DCC.  From a brand perspective look at the benefits, one fewer precision machined component to source and install, one more potential decoder sale, more opportunity to sell DCC systems.

 

14 minutes ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

The YouTubers who made reviews are only just a guideline for me.

Couldn't have put it better; they tend to peak at 'the product can be removed from the packaging'.

Thanks for making me smile.

Edited April 21 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
typo

[Silver Sidelines]

1 minute ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Universal provision of a DCC decoder socket makes them redundant, now that the majority of those that run their RTR OO purchases do so using DCC.  From a brand perspective look at the benefits, one fewer precision macined component to source and install, one more potential decoder sale, more opportunity to sell DCC systems.

 

 

Yes I had been pondering this issue.  I had come to the conclusion that the provision of suitably large stay alive capacitors does away with the need for fly wheels.

 

Watching the 'bargains' on the box shifters web sites and the prices of second hand models on eBay has me wondering how long before the buying and selling of steam outline models becomes a niche occupation with the bulk of the market devoted to modern image.  I will let you think about the definition of modern image remembering that green liveried steam engines and marroon lined coaches dispeared off British Railways around 1964 - sixty years ago.

 

Cheers  Ray

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 minute ago, Silver Sidelines said:

Yes I had been pondering this issue.  I had come to the conclusion that the provision of suitably large stay alive capacitors does away with the need for fly wheels.

I haven't a single 'stay alive' installed in my all DCC operation. I use the electronically simulated inertia provision standard in all but the most basic DCC decoders for well over 20 years. An eight or ten coupled freighter dragging a maximum load unbraked freight will be set up to coast from circa 20mph for getting on three minutes until it comes to rest, when set to speed step zero. This is way more effective than any flywheel system can achieve and looks wonderful.

[Steamport Southport]

13 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 

Yes I had been pondering this issue.  I had come to the conclusion that the provision of suitably large stay alive capacitors does away with the need for fly wheels.

 

Watching the 'bargains' on the box shifters web sites and the prices of second hand models on eBay has me wondering how long before the buying and selling of steam outline models becomes a niche occupation with the bulk of the market devoted to modern image.  I will let you think about the definition of modern image remembering that green liveried steam engines and marroon lined coaches dispeared off British Railways around 1964 - sixty years ago.

 

Cheers  Ray

 

Not that old chestnut. Probably more people travelling behind steam on Heritage Railways this weekend than there are people modelling modern railways.

 

BTW look at bargain bins as they are chock-a-block with all those D&Es that everyone keeps asking for. Using Rails as an example. Kernow and others are similar.

 

35 steam (8 00 gauge)

199 diesel (115 00 gauge)

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/bargains

 

And the steam on offer are hardly typical models.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/bargains?tags_scale_vsofeb5rx8ncvkx4f1i9n6kd=OO-Gauge&system_collections=Steam%20Locomotives

 

 

 

Jason

[ColinB]

22 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not that old chestnut. Probably more people travelling behind steam on Heritage Railways this weekend than there are people modelling modern railways.

 

BTW look at bargain bins as they are chock-a-block with all those D&Es that everyone keeps asking for. Using Rails as an example. Kernow and others are similar.

 

35 steam (8 00 gauge)

199 diesel (115 00 gauge)

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/bargains

 

And the steam on offer are hardly typical models.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/bargains?tags_scale_vsofeb5rx8ncvkx4f1i9n6kd=OO-Gauge&system_collections=Steam%20Locomotives

 

 

 

Jason

I would agree last week I bought a damaged  pre used Hornby Stanier Tank loco, which was nearly the same price as a Dapol brand new class 73 in their "fire sale", both off "Rails". 

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

We understand why he's doing it, that doesn't want make it a meaningful contribution to a review of the item in question, quite the opposite. He plays to the gallery for clicks, and is obviously successful at that, it just makes it even less likely that I can be bothered to fast forward through the 90% waffle of his videos to find the useful information that's in there somewhere. 

Funny, I read that excuse a lot. If he was doing it for clicks he would be far more dramatic. His real money is coming from members of his club. He is just doing an engineering analysis just like I would do. Perhaps he should do a video of sending it back.

[ColinB]

If we ignore all the criticism, there were some very interesting facts he uncovered for a start there seems to be very little weight in the loco, the area where they are going to put the steam generator would normally have a hefty weight. it didn't. It is a shame he didn't take the tender apart to see if they had dispensed with the tender weight, seeing as it supposedly has a die cast base.

[zr2498]

21 minutes ago, ColinB said:

If we ignore all the criticism, there were some very interesting facts he uncovered for a start there seems to be very little weight in the loco, the area where they are going to put the steam generator would normally have a hefty weight. it didn't. It is a shame he didn't take the tender apart to see if they had dispensed with the tender weight, seeing as it supposedly has a die cast base.

I watch Sam's Trains, and although it is mainly 'for a bit of fun', he does take the trouble to do a detailed examination. 

Some of his thinking is not always logical, for example extra weight does not mean extra quality, and should not be equated to the cost.

But he brought to light a number of points with this new Black 5 to consider:

a) It is virtually impossible to remove the lamps without causing damage, and probably would need some remedial work. Easier if they were not included in the first place. For a 'basic' version (see below), It would have been better for Hornby to provide non-working correct size lamps in the detailing pack. Much the same as the crew. Adding oversize lamps is moving away from finescale, whereas extra detail is moving towards it. The directions are conflicting.

b) The tender connection is non adjustable for the gap, and the design is vulnerable. Not robust enough. Clearly he had a damaged connection 'out of the box', so one has to wonder how long before others have the same issue.

c) The glue marks appeared quite bad. It is no good having a 'finescale' loco with extra detailing if it is not carefully assembled.

d) No flywheel. Sacrificed for the steam generator. Not needed for DCC, but it is a move away from what was becoming a common standard.

 

I guess it is difficut for the likes of Hornby. They need to sell more locos, and the lamps / steam will attract many customers, but this could have an adverse response from modellers who were looking forward to a newly tooled, potentially more detailed loco until it is seen that the play value additions compromise the detailing and peformance.

 

I think this was mentioned up thread. Perhaps there needs to be different versions so that the play value additions are at added purchase price. And don't add new tech ideas for the sake of it. For example, the older models had adjustable connections between loco and tender for a reason.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

32 minutes ago, zr2498 said:

I guess it is difficut for the likes of Hornby. They need to sell more locos, and the lamps / steam will attract many customers, but this could have an adverse response from modellers who were looking forward to a newly tooled, potentially more detailed loco until it is seen that the play value additions compromise the detailing and peformance.

Hornby have almost institutionalised diving down rabbit holes in pursuit of increasing profit*.

'Live steam' (when DCC was very obviously the coming thing).

'Railroad' (which for a moment looked sensible but quickly deteriorated into a mess).

'Design Clever' (which looked anything but to the majority of folks online).

'Themed releases' (typically released too late, Olympics, Steampunk).

 

And that's alongside producing good product for the past 20 years, some of which happens to orient well with this modeller's preferences. But there is no way of knowing whether the next announcement that's of interest will actually be from the 'good product' drawer: it might be a rabbit hole special. The only thing to do is relax, and wait until you can get eyes and hands on, and assess whether it can be knocked into the desired shape; or whether it's as near perfect for purpose as one could imagine, such as their B12/3, LNER non-gangwayed coaches, Trout ballast hopper. Of course aiming at that standard could all end tomorrow, and if that's what they choose to do, it's a case of thanks for your previous useful output, and farewell.

 

FWIW, with a black 5 that is actually of convincing appearance 'the bones' look good enough to chance a purchase. It's only an assembled kit, I can take off anything that isn't required and fill it with lead for traction, been adapting RTR OO in this way 'forever'..

 

* Call me naive, but I have always assumed that the profit imperative is still the guiding principle behond this operation's doings.

[steve45]

I'm not going to replace my previous versions, I just don't think its worth over £200. It needs reworking (lights and tender coupling) to make it into a state where it is a marginal improvement over it's predecessor.

 

 

 

I 

[Flying Pig]

3 hours ago, zr2498 said:

But he brought to light a number of points with this new Black 5 to consider:

 

I'm not crazy about the tender underframe - diecasting certainly seems to be a rabbit hole in this case and I don't think the result is as good as on earlier all-plastic models, certainly not as crisp, which I think will show up in normal use.  There also seems to be less daylight than there should be through the frame cutouts. They had a good Stanier 4000 gallon tender underframe with the Princess and all they needed were some 9 ton bodies to go on top.

 

 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not that old chestnut. Probably more people travelling behind steam on Heritage Railways this weekend than there are people modelling modern railways.

 

BTW look at bargain bins as they are chock-a-block with all those D&Es that everyone keeps asking for. Using Rails as an example. Kernow and others are similar.

 

35 steam (8 00 gauge)

199 diesel (115 00 gauge)

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/bargains

 

And the steam on offer are hardly typical models.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/bargains?tags_scale_vsofeb5rx8ncvkx4f1i9n6kd=OO-Gauge&system_collections=Steam%20Locomotives

 

 

 

Jason

 

maybe its time to look at the discount pattern from a new perspective…

correct as at 21-Apr at 2100

 

Mostly rolling stock, and models by the traditional big three, whom arguably the ones with the higher price points.

Edited April 21 by adb968008

[maico]

9 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 

 

As to Sam I am puzzled by his statement that the Hornby model will haul 20 coaches.  His coaches look like trucks to me.  Have I missed something?  He does say the haulage is similar to the new 2MT so 20 trucks would be about right.

 

 

 

 

He uses a torque meter and extrapolates the number of coaches number.

[phil-b259]

On 20/04/2024 at 20:01, Adi said:

Check other reviews out before cancelling 

While other reviews may well have locos which work flawlessly and lack glue marks - their models are not going to magically come with a flywheel, a closer coupled loco + tender or lamps that are more to scale / less bright / easier to remove are they?