The future of Model railway Exhibitions

[woodenhead]

4 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

I think that most model railway shows need a large family audience and one idea and back in the day my club got that by putting up posters in local shops, but that is not so easy these days.

 

One idea I've had (and TBH I may have posted this before) is to offer a special family ticket via a voucher in the local free paper. A really cheap price for two adults and two children if they bring the cut out voucher on the day - even cheaper than the advertised price on posters. In this scenario, the normal family ticket might be the same as two adults, but the voucher family ticket would be the same as 1.5 adults as long as they bring one/two children with them (to avoid two enthusiasts turning up without children and getting the deal).

 

Just a 'off the top of my head' idea.

Cost of placing the add and then there is distribution - the local rag for Manchester the MEN is mainly an online affair these days, there are some local Messenger papers but distribution of these is dependent on people wanting to deliver them - in the 30 years I have lived in my current town I have never had a regular delivery of the Messenger because there was no-one prepared to deliver it.  What might it cost to place an add versus the return?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

31 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Cost of placing the add and then there is distribution - the local rag for Manchester the MEN is mainly an online affair these days, there are some local Messenger papers but distribution of these is dependent on people wanting to deliver them - in the 30 years I have lived in my current town I have never had a regular delivery of the Messenger because there was no-one prepared to deliver it.  What might it cost to place an add versus the return?

 

Fair comment

[LNERandBR]

In the past we've tried advertising in the local press but despite a lot of money being spent on adverts we never saw any increase in footfall.

 

If you can get permission for roadside advertising then that seems to work better. Each local authority has their own rules on that tho and it's important not to push it and be careful.

 

One of our members has been doing facebook advertising using their own account and we've now opened a page for our club. We'll see if that gets some interest from the relevant groups. 

[ikcdab]

37 minutes ago, LNERandBR said:

In the past we've tried advertising in the local press but despite a lot of money being spent on adverts we never saw any increase in footfall.

My experience too.  I don't think many read hard copy local papers anymore and those that do are not the right target group for an exhibition.   Online social media is the best method, though you do need someone dedicated to do it.  

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, 298 said:

don't know the etiquette of how to behave at one,

so along with step stools you offer rucksacks and the unwashed laundry of the local rugby and football clubs? 😇

Edited December 4, 2022 by PaulRhB

[enginelane]

Local council,has an excellent free service of hosting and advertising for free on their website events. Found it a good way of getting the show advertised locally. For the press need a story so they will do an article. Hoping the 60 th show will be the hook in 2023.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Are there too many shows, do some clubs and organisers need to re-think what they want to achieve? Increases in the costs of living will not only make shows more expensive to run but may also influence the potential visitor's ability and willingness to attend.

 

If the motivation in putting a show on is to create club income, then the audience profile is largely irrelevant as long as there are lots of them. Keeping expenses down will invariably mean a one-day show while low cost, local layouts, including those owned by the club and it's members would be a benefit. Traders, whose stand rent can often contribute significantly to the show will also probably be local. 

 

So while that type of show is good for the club and gives their members a warm feeling, it doesn't really work for larger regional or "national" shows, where you need to attract a wider audience of "modellers". For a long time I have considered that the hobby is increasingly dividing into two main sectors, those whose modelling is driven/bound by what the RTR manufacturers produce and those (the minority) who still go beyond the RTR boundaries and create layouts that cover a wider range of prototypes, railways, periods, scales, etc. So a show organiser will have to decide which audience to aim for. The "RTR/RTP" modeller will want different trade support and probably relate more to the sort layout that is built using the products he is familiar with. I have experienced this while operating an Edwardian period LNWR featuring kit built models, which attracted far fewer viewers and a BR 60s/70s diesel period layout with out of the box models, across the aisle.

 

What will happen to those shows who focus on what is referred to "finescale" modelling? The general public don't probably appreciate the difference but some. like York and Railex attract both audiences. The Society shows,  ExpoEM, etc. focus on their members and likeminded modellers. They are important in providing an opportunity for their members to meet, for specialist suppliers of kits, etc. to meet customers and make sales. As someone who prefers to make models rather than buy them, they are important to me, but I recognize I am increasingly in a minority.

[Northmoor]

26 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Are there too many shows, do some clubs and organisers need to re-think what they want to achieve? Increases in the costs of living will not only make shows more expensive to run but may also influence the potential visitor's ability and willingness to attend.

 

If the motivation in putting a show on is to create club income, then the audience profile is largely irrelevant as long as there are lots of them. Keeping expenses down will invariably mean a one-day show while low cost, local layouts, including those owned by the club and it's members would be a benefit. Traders, whose stand rent can often contribute significantly to the show will also probably be local. 

 

So while that type of show is good for the club and gives their members a warm feeling, it doesn't really work for larger regional or "national" shows, where you need to attract a wider audience of "modellers". For a long time I have considered that the hobby is increasingly dividing into two main sectors, those whose modelling is driven/bound by what the RTR manufacturers produce and those (the minority) who still go beyond the RTR boundaries and create layouts that cover a wider range of prototypes, railways, periods, scales, etc. So a show organiser will have to decide which audience to aim for. The "RTR/RTP" modeller will want different trade support and probably relate more to the sort layout that is built using the products he is familiar with. I have experienced this while operating an Edwardian period LNWR featuring kit built models, which attracted far fewer viewers and a BR 60s/70s diesel period layout with out of the box models, across the aisle.

 

What will happen to those shows who focus on what is referred to "finescale" modelling? The general public don't probably appreciate the difference but some. like York and Railex attract both audiences. The Society shows,  ExpoEM, etc. focus on their members and likeminded modellers. They are important in providing an opportunity for their members to meet, for specialist suppliers of kits, etc. to meet customers and make sales. As someone who prefers to make models rather than buy them, they are important to me, but I recognize I am increasingly in a minority.

@Jol WilkinsonI think it's been discussed at length on Wright Writes that there are probably insufficient "good-enough quality" layouts, for too many shows, chasing not enough visitors.  Although the evidence above suggests that some (the best run?) shows are doing just fine.

 

I think the debate has concluded that the future lies in two extremes:

• The small local village hall show with everything provided by volunteers and a low hire charge;
• The "National/Regional" show which can obtain a major sponsor and attendance my the bir RTR manufacturers.

Anything in the middle isn't big enough to attract sufficient visitor income or small enough to minimise the cost base.

[Not Jeremy]

That strikes me as a typically bipolar RMweb conclusion; it fits an argument, suits those of us who like everything in neatly labelled boxes, but otherwise pretty much completely misses the nuances of the real world.

 

I look forward to enjoying all sorts of shows for a long time to come!

[Clearwater]

9 hours ago, ikcdab said:

My experience too.  I don't think many read hard copy local papers anymore and those that do are not the right target group for an exhibition.   Online social media is the best method, though you do need someone dedicated to do it.  

and who understands how social media works.  Ie more than a tweet or Facebook post but how to actually drive engagement and visitor numbers.

[Chris M]

I've been to ten exhibitions over the last year ranging from very big to rather small. In my view all bar one looked to have a healthy attendance and had plenty of happy, interested customers of all ages. The one that didn't have a healthy attendance was quite poorly advertised. From what has been said they all returned an excess of income over expenditure (club events don't make a profit). Even the poorly attended one did ok financially due to low costs and good bacon butty sales. I reckon the model railway exhibition scene is currently doing fine. Maybe some show attendances are not quite back to pre covid levels and I know that many clubs have future issues with ever increasing costs and aging volunteers but overall things appear to in largely good shape at the moment. I'm optimistic that next year will be a good year for exhibitions.

 

I've retired my layout from exhibitions for a while so that's an instant improvement. 😉

[Barry O]

12 hours ago, Northmoor said:

@Jol WilkinsonI think it's been discussed at length on Wright Writes that there are probably insufficient "good-enough quality" layouts, for too many shows, chasing not enough visitors.  Although the evidence above suggests that some (the best run?) shows are doing just fine.

 

I think the debate has concluded that the future lies in two extremes:

• The small local village hall show with everything provided by volunteers and a low hire charge;
• The "National/Regional" show which can obtain a major sponsor and attendance my the bir RTR manufacturers.

Anything in the middle isn't big enough to attract sufficient visitor income or small enough to minimise the cost base.

So is Wright's Writes the fountain of all knowledge.. erm.. no

Is the discussion based on a wide range of views or just Tony's? (And yes we have been friends for 40 odd years)

 

Unless your are involved in running a show the conclusion seems to be based on opinions not facts.

 

Baz

[009 micro modeller]

12 hours ago, Northmoor said:

there are probably insufficient "good-enough quality" layouts, for too many shows,

The quality (however measured) of layouts can be quite variable though, even at larger and more well-established exhibitions.

[Barry O]

If people want large shows with sponsors or publishers in charge will exhibitors be 

 

Paid expenses at the show rather than 6 weeks after the show?

And.. Will exhibitors be paid commercial rates for attendance?

 

Exhibitors at Warley get looked after refreshment wise (hot dood at breakfast and lunch and free drinks vouchers) and expenses were paid very quickly (in my case the Monday after the show).

 

I have attended two "sponsored " shows this year. Both gave out a meal voucher just enough for a sandwich and a bag of crisps (unfortunately at one of these shows they had run out of sandwiches), after many years of not having a hot drink they have finally seen the light and you could get one. Expenses were kept to a minimum .. at one show we were paid 6 weeks after the event which meant I paid for the van and fuel and then had to pay my credit card bill before receiving the money I was owed. This was not made clear before the show.

 

Result.. our club layouts will not be attending the shows run by this publisher in the future..

 

Problem is, some people are desperate to get their layout on show. We have plenty of other shows to attend without providing the "sponsors" with income.  is this a good business model?  Time will tell but people may get fed up with paying to attend shos with their layouts.

 

Baz

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris M]

I expect there will as many definitions of "good enough quality layout" as there are followers of this thread. To appreciate any layout you have to understand what the builder was trying to achieve. A builder might want to make a perfect model of a totally fictitious place or maybe a less than perfect model of a real place. Another might build nice scenery but just want to run trains that he or she likes regardless of fidelity.  Ultimately the quality of layout can only really be measured against the objectives of the builder. 

 

My current layout is a serious attempt at modelling a location and based on comments visitors seem to love it because they can relate to it. I rate that as good enough quality. On the other hand I have included amusing features in both high quality and not such high quality layouts that I have been involved in the past with and make no apology for this. A lot of people have walked away from these layouts with big smiles on their faces which, in the case of these layouts equals "good enough quality" for what it was intended to do. I have seen youngsters jumping up and down with excitement while watching my layouts and also giggling away. That gives me a good feeling. We have only had a few youngsters run away in tears when the truck explodes.....

[Chris M]

4 minutes ago, Barry O said:

If people want large shows with sponsors or publishers in charge will exhibitors be 

 

Paid expenses at the show rather than 6 weeks after the show?

And.. Will exhibitors be paid commercial rates for attendance?

 

Exhibitors at Warley get looked after refreshment wise (hot dood at breakfast and lunch and free drinks vouchers) and expenses were paid very quickly (in my case the Monday after the show).

 

I have attended two "sponsored " shows this year. Both gave out a meal voucher just enough for a sandwich and a bag of crisps (unfortunately at one of these shows they had run out of sandwiches), after many years of not having a hot drink they have finally seen the light and you could get one. Expenses were kept to a minimum .. at one show we were paid 6 weeks after the event which meant I paid for the van and fuel and then had to pay my credit card bill before receiving the money I was owed. This was not made clear before the show.

 

Result.. our club layouts will not be attending the shows run by this publisher in the future..

 

Problem is, some people are desperate to get their layout on show. We have plenty of other shows to attend without providing the "sponsors" with income.  is this a good business model?  Time will tell but people may get fed up with paying to attend shos with their layouts.

 

Baz

 

 

 

 

 

The question of taking a layout to a show organised by a business and giving your time for free so the business can make a profit is a difficult one. I think the organisers of magazine run shows would say that they give up a large amount of personal unpaid time to make the shows happen so its not all just for profit. I have exhibited at the Hornby Magazine show twice and will very happily exhibit there again if asked because it is a lovely show and the organisers are genuinely interested in putting on a great show. They also look after exhibitors. The International N Gauge Show however is not one I am keen to exhibit at again. I will happily go as a paying visitor but I didn't feel very appreciated as an exhibitor. If the business that owns the hall and puts on the show can't be bothered to give exhibitors even a free cup of tea then I can't be bothered to exhibit there.

 

Then there is the Swindon Steam Museum show. It could be argued that you are giving up your time for free to help a local authority. On the other hand it could also be argued that you are giving up your time for free to help a wonderful museum raise funds. Either way its a great atmosphere and I love the surroundings so I will happily exhibit there. One year I had Mr Brunel looking over my shoulder all weekend - I found that a little disconcerting.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

 One year I had Mr Brunel looking over my shoulder all weekend - I found that a little disconcerting.

He was wondering how you made your steam engines move without any smoke - "just two electric rails you say and you plug it into this thing called the 'mains'.  "

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, Chris M said:

Ultimately the quality of layout can only really be measured against the objectives of the builder. 

Surely the subjective views of the audience members are the most important thing? In most cases the builder's objectives must be unknown to the viewer, as must whether he/she has achieved them or has just missed or missed by the proverbial mile. Anyway, I'd much rather see a layout whose builder has aimed high and perhaps just missed than one built by someone who has aimed very low and just about achieved the objective...

[Clearwater]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

He was wondering how you made your steam engines move without any smoke - "just two electric rails you say and you plug it into this thing called the 'mains'.  "

 

And probably thinking, now there's an idea I can adapt...

[arran]

HI All

 

Its interesting to read some of these point above and What show sizes will work in future .

 

Local shows will always be with us as they pose minimum risk and are eventually run by clubs , its finding the right venue in the right town .

 

Larger shows pose a greater risk to whoever is putting it on , and i know from what im involved in that a layout at a st Andrews show "10 layouts" to one at a Modelrail Scotland "50 layouts say"  the space at the larger show must be 8 x the cost of the local one .  

 

The quality argument always come up and its a balance that has to be struck , but ive seen later on at Modelrail the big tail chaser still packed with family's while the exquisite ones not getting looked at , that's something that you cant ignore , 

 

Regards Arran

[PaulRhB]

9 hours ago, Chris M said:

I expect there will as many definitions of "good enough quality layout" as there are followers of this thread.

Quite so and equally some people may be charmed by the idea over the execution of it. When some dismiss layouts as rubbish because of subject rather than quality of modelling I don’t think there’s any hope of defining quality! 😄

[Northmoor]

12 hours ago, Barry O said:

So is Wright's Writes the fountain of all knowledge.. erm.. no

Is the discussion based on a wide range of views or just Tony's? (And yes we have been friends for 40 odd years)

 

Unless your are involved in running a show the conclusion seems to be based on opinions not facts.

 

Baz

OK well you seem to have assumed I was saying something other than what I intended.  Personally I've found Wright Writes to contain a range of views, open to challenge and debate from all.  What I meant was that this debate on that thread had arrived at that conclusion.

 

I haven't been involved in running an exhibition, but have attended four shows in the last year; two specialist (ExpoEM and Scaleforum) and two "local" shows run in school halls (Basingstoke and Aldershot).  The latter I would describe as in the smaller category - but both were excellent - and only ExpoEM and Aldershot had I been to before.

 

My impression, from talking to stewards and overhearing demonstrators' conversations, was that ExpoEM was quieter than pre-pandemic, Basingstoke was doing OK and Aldershot was at least as busy as any I remember.  What is notable in the calendar is the absence of the Woking exhibition, which I would describe as falling into neither of my categories.  I believe that attendances were falling over previous years - 2019 was notably quiet on the Sunday - but the REC members do not feel able to put in on again in future (effects of an ageing membership, etc.).  I think, but happy to be corrected, that the sports centre rental for a weekend was also becoming unaffordable. 

 

The non-appearance of the Ally Pally show in early 2023 is presumably due to the lack of a major sponsor, because the cost of hiring that venue must be out of reach of all but a PLC who expect to make a lot of sales of new products, to recover the cost.

Ooops, got my wires crossed (i was sure I'd read about it somewhere, obviously not, perhaps it was a very old thread referring to the 2020/2021 shows).  Apologies for the confusion and to the organisers.  I'll try and go in March next year.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Northmoor
Correction due to a moment of numpti-ness

[Gilbert]

3 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

The non-appearance of the Ally Pally show in early 2023 is presumably due to the lack of a major sponsor, because the cost of hiring that venue must be out of reach of all but a PLC who expect to make a lot of sales of new products, to recover the cost.

When was that announced?

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

When was that announced?

It wasn’t 😆

 

10 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

The non-appearance of the Ally Pally show in early 2023 is presumably due to the lack of a major sponsor, because

Er I think you might want to look at the world of railways site!?!?

 

[Northmoor]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

It wasn’t 😆

 

Er I think you might want to look at the world of railways site!?!?

 

Indeed, please see my amended message above.  I'm going for a lie-down now.