The future of Model railway Exhibitions

[andyman7]

On 20/09/2022 at 16:19, Phil Parker said:

 

Shuttle bus services are interesting - why should they be free? Our club laid on a bus for a few years and it mostly travelled empty, whilst absorbing money that could be used for layouts. Essentially, those who drove, subsidised those who took the bus.

 

I say this as someone who loves public transport, but talking to railway modellers, I know a lot who to whom the idea of setting foot on a real train is a horridying prospect. Never undertsood why, but it is the case.

 

It's rather strange, isn't it? The hobby is a broad church but (although I have access to a car) I prefer to use train (plus bus if needed) to get to the big exhibitions, so favour the ones with good transport links

 

On 20/09/2022 at 17:04, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I would say Warley trumps that.

Not only does the NEC have Birmingham International in the same complex, but also Birmingham Airport.

 

The one factor that will influence Warley for me is the current dire Avanti service and whether it is more stable come November time. As a 'nice to have' rather than 'must have' event, I'd like to be reasonably sure of a comfortable journey as standing from Birmingham to London is not fun (I've done it so I know)

 

On 20/09/2022 at 17:36, itsthegman said:

 

Ally Pally next year who knows this year it was as above the wife and I plus £12.50 congestion charge and yes it was congested there and back. I picked up some bits saw some good layouts and generally enjoyed, the worst part was figuring out how to pay the congestion charge online. For those of you who say take the train - not a chance it's way too expensive I'd love to but no - buy an electric car well let me just go and collect this pot of gold from the end of the rainbow (apologies to the little green people) I don't live in that price bracket and the congestion charge does figure large in my plans for Ally Pally next year.

 

Ally Pally won't necessarily suit those who would have to come from hundreds of miles away but it is very accessible by public transport and is in the Travelcard area so is within low or free transport costs for millions of people in the London area

[arran]

31 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But those exhibitors are giving their time for free, I think more would think twice about standing all day on a layout if the only meals provided were breakfast and tea.  I think it's part and parcel of the deal between the parties involved in running a show, it's becomes more of a deal for exhibitors if they need to source meals in the middle of the day when they could be running trains or giving their colleagues a rest.

Its something that comes of the bottom line for Any exhibition , and for some it may make the difference between it being worth the Risk "remember that"  to have a show or not.

 

No shows then your free times your own .

[Gilbert]

I enjoy the social aspects of exhibiting - its part of my "railway modelling" hobby and I have agreed various financial adjustments with exhibition organisers recently so we contribute to the overall cost of having one of my layouts at the show - my regular helpers share that view and are happy to help pay for an extra room etc.

Some of my layouts are quite operable with one operator but we take two etc. as I'm not prepared to be "billy no mates" all weekend - I may do a local one day show on that basis but that is it....I also feel that the visitors get a better deal with 2 of us (or more) anyway as I can be chatting away about DCC or couplings or base boards etc. (normal questions) while the layout still runs properly

I also have to say some of us are now of an age or state of health where we prefer a room to ourselves and will also happily help with paying that additional cost.

How long that is sustainable is another question of course...

Chris H

[LNERandBR]

52 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But those exhibitors are giving their time for free, I think more would think twice about standing all day on a layout if the only meals provided were breakfast and tea.  I think it's part and parcel of the deal between the parties involved in running a show, it's becomes more of a deal for exhibitors if they need to source meals in the middle of the day when they could be running trains or giving their colleagues a rest.

 

Quite agree, also since when did accomodation include an evening meal? Every show I've done as an exhibitor where I've been put up in a hotel has included breakfast only. You have to find your own evening meal. 

 

It's also far easier to just provide a lunch for all. My club's show goes one further and provides lunch to Traders too as being a small village hall show means we can do so. Get the prices right for refreshments and the profit from that pays for the lunches.

[Chris M]

59 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But those exhibitors are giving their time for free, I think more would think twice about standing all day on a layout if the only meals provided were breakfast and tea.  I think it's part and parcel of the deal between the parties involved in running a show, it's becomes more of a deal for exhibitors if they need to source meals in the middle of the day when they could be running trains or giving their colleagues a rest.

In my experience the norm is for the exhibition to pay for bed & breakfast if the exhibitors have come from a long distance and provide what is usually a light lunch (sandwich and a packet of crisps) . Dinner and beer is paid for by the exhibitors themselves. In practice it always ends up costing the exhibitor at least a little to take a layout to an exhibition. As a general rule we normally gather at the local ‘spoons for the evening meal. Accommodation is usually two sharing a twin room; most of us would rather have a single room but it’s all about the economics of the show. One show is well known for not providing lunch or even tea & coffee for layout exhibitors. Last time I exhibited there I increased my petrol costs to cover the cost of lunch.  There won’t be a next time for me at this show as I have “thought twice”.

 

Compared to the cost of accommodation (say £160 per person for 2 nights), van hire (£200-£300) and fuel ( £100 diesel for a van to an exhibition 150 miles away) a few pounds for lunch is fairly inconsequential.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, arran said:

Its something that comes of the bottom line for Any exhibition , and for some it may make the difference between it being worth the Risk "remember that"  to have a show or not.

 

No shows then your free times your own .

I'm not an exhibitor, I am punter who pays to come to the exhibition.  Any exhibition I come to I expect the exhibitors to be treated fairly in return for the time they are giving up.  As noted above, a drink of tea and a sandwich is an inconsequential cost compared to travel and accomodation but it makes the day easier for the exhibitors.

[arran]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I'm not an exhibitor, I am punter who pays to come to the exhibition.  Any exhibition I come to I expect the exhibitors to be treated fairly in return for the time they are giving up.  As noted above, a drink of tea and a sandwich is an inconsequential cost compared to travel and accomodation but it makes the day easier for the exhibitors.

Some Exhibition venues and my own included won't let us give Free tea and coffee to the exhibitors now , although we do get a discount at the centers facilities .I as an exhibitor count Free  tea and coffee as a bounous and its certainly not unfair if they dont .

[Colin_McLeod]

On 20/09/2022 at 17:04, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I would say Warley trumps that.

Not only does the NEC have Birmingham International in the same complex, but also Birmingham Airport.

Indeed, an airport and an excellent hotel.  I used both when I last went to the Warley exhibition

[Gilbert]

12 minutes ago, arran said:

Some Exhibition venues and my own included won't let us give Free tea and coffee to the exhibitors now , although we do get a discount at the centers facilities .I as an exhibitor count Free  tea and coffee as a bounous and its certainly not unfair if they dont .

As an exhibitor as long as I know what the "deal" is in advance that's fine. Its being left with no lunch and no prospect of buying lunch when I get fed up...

Also - some venues simply don't allow beverages in the exhibition area which if you are single-handed is a bit of a b8888r frankly...

[JSpencer]

I think people have not quite got back into the swing of things post Covid. But it will return.

I never found the price for entry expensive, often surprised how cheap to be honest.

Hall hire is of course a real consideration. Sometimes the person hiring the hall out is trying to extract the maximum amount of money they can, and that can render an exhibition pointless.

Advertising needs to reasonable too. I know some clubs who do literally almost zero. A facebook post and a few posters nearby, which is probably fine for a small expo, but not when it covers say 2000 square metres or more...

 

One show I did last year covered the costs of exhibitors well. This year, their costs to do the show went up and they could only offer a bare minimum to exhibitors, or worse, asked if they would do it for free for the club. At the same time, entry fee £2 per person for 6000 entries was IMHO too cheap. They could have made it £4.

The trick is to keep cost and price reasonable within the market average and a good balance of advertising. And keep the content balanced too between traders and exhibitors (if it is a show, keep it show centric etc.).

 

As for building a new club layout, well first and foremost it should serve the club and fulfill a need/objective. Making it purely for a show is the wrong approach. The layout needs to live on a weekly basis and evolve.

[APOLLO]

I don't know about costs / organising exhibitions but I attended my first exhibition for nearly three years at Leigh a couple of weeks ago. Quite a good exhibition, nice selection of layouts from live steam O narrow gauge to N micro, and lots of people and families with kids also. Trade support was good too - quite an enjoyable exhibition which I will visit again next year. Entrance fee was a fiver which was value for money. Looking forward to the Wigan ex next week.

 

Just an observation, lots of secondhand models at reasonable prices seemed to be selling very well rather than far more expensive brand new models, and new releases were notable by their absence. A sign of the times ?

 

Brit15

Edited September 21, 2022 by APOLLO
typo

[John M Upton]

There are two good shows on the first weekend in October, local to me and accessible by train (I don't drive, well not cars anyway, just trains) these being Worthing (Actually Durrington on Sea) and Fareham.

 

After swapping around shifts and calling in favours, I was all set to go to Worthing on the Saturday and Fareham on the Sunday but now there is a ruddy rail strike on the Saturday so I can now only attend one show, on the Sunday.

 

If these irritating strikes keep happening, then shows who rely on visitors who use public transport are going to seriously lose out at a time post Covid* when they can least afford it.

 

[* Contrary to popular belief, Covid has not actually gone away though]

Edited September 21, 2022 by John M Upton

[Dagworth]

36 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Also - some venues simply don't allow beverages in the exhibition area which if you are single-handed is a bit of a b8888r frankly...

It's important to know things like this when you get the invite, that would be a simple refusal to accept for me, no tea, no show.

 

Andi

[LNERandBR]

Free tea and coffee on tap is a must for exhibitors I feel. If it's not going to be free then that needs to be communicated at the time of the booking. You spend a lot of time talking to visitors so having liquid refreshment available is important. 

 

1 hour ago, arran said:

Some Exhibition venues and my own included won't let us give Free tea and coffee to the exhibitors now , although we do get a discount at the centers facilities .I as an exhibitor count Free  tea and coffee as a bounous and its certainly not unfair if they dont .

 

I have heard of this and expect it will be down to whichever franchised catering is in place at that venue. In the case that I am thinking of I understand the catering manager was quite put out that exhibitors should have any free sustenance.

However, there are ways and means around it and many shows simply don't use the catering outlet for Exhibitors. Mainly by having a 'Exhibitor Only' area where you can only get in if you are an exhibitor and having suitable facilities there. Providing a lunch can be done by delivering packed lunches to exhibitors is another method that's becoming more and more common. 

[john new]

3 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

Free tea and coffee on tap is a must for exhibitors I feel. If it's not going to be free then that needs to be communicated at the time of the booking. You spend a lot of time talking to visitors so having liquid refreshment available is important. 

 

 

I have heard of this and expect it will be down to whichever franchised catering is in place at that venue. In the case that I am thinking of I understand the catering manager was quite put out that exhibitors should have any free sustenance.

However, there are ways and means around it and many shows simply don't use the catering outlet for Exhibitors. Mainly by having a 'Exhibitor Only' area where you can only get in if you are an exhibitor and having suitable facilities there. Providing a lunch can be done by delivering packed lunches to exhibitors is another method that's becoming more and more common. 

Not a recent example, and the venue has since changed management responsibility, but one catering jobsworth back in the late 80s or early 90s cost the venue the exhibition. He couldn’t grasp that by banning self catering for exhibitors (it was a WI craft event that sparked the issue not the mod-ex) he was also losing several other shows. Regarding the mod-ex losing circa 2 days x 100 club prepared exhibitor lunches he lost the in-house catering for the building the opportunity to cater to around 1500 visitors over the two days. The club I was then in found another venue and haven’t ever been back! Circa 30 years now for that venue of lost hire fees and related catering income. As a side issue also losing the Council parking income for the alongside public car park. 
 

The proverb about want of a nail losing the battle comes to mind.

 

[Barry O]

18 hours ago, Neil said:

 

The crux of the issue. I wonder if any of the organisers have experienced the show as an ordinary punter, paying with their own money, queuing for seat at lunchtime, not availing themselves of the exhibitors rest room etc?

Yes but it's so long ago.. in the Harry Mitchell Centre in Warley Clubs case. Since then I have been toevery NEC shows a "helper" which means I have little time to go to the rest room. It does mean I have a good idea of where trade and layouts are in the Hall. Generally we are allowed outfrom our layouts/demos on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning.

 

If volunteers don't help with the show it won't happen.. ever tried volunteering to check the floor markings, put up and place 400+ tables and chairs,run your layout or demo, queue for lunch, then dismantle the show at the end? Well, if you haven't... try doing it sometime.

 

Baz

Edited September 22, 2022 by Barry O

[Gilbert]

12 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Yes but it's so long ago.. in the Harry Mitchell Centre in Warley Clubs case. Since then I have been toevery NEC shows a "helper" which means I have little time to go to the rest room. It does mean I have a good idea of where trade and layouts are in the Hall. Generally we are allowed outfrom our layouts/demos on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning.

 

If volunteers don't help with the show it won't happen.. ever tried volunteering tochechthe floor markings, put up and place 400+ tables and chairs,run you layout or demo, queue for lunch, then dismantle the show at the end? Well, if you haven't... try doing it sometime.

 

Baz

Very true and I suspect its increasingly difficult to find willing volunteers...I'm involved in other areas of "volunteering" where demographics combined with the break that resulted from C***d have seen far fewer people prepared to commit to roles. (the impact of C****d we found was to give people a break from a regular event commitment which many found they enjoyed plus a lot of others simply forgot the roles used to do...)

Chris H

[Chris M]

13 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Yes but it's so long ago.. in the Harry Mitchell Centre in Warley Clubs case. Since then I have been toevery NEC shows a "helper" which means I have little time to go to the rest room. It does mean I have a good idea of where trade and layouts are in the Hall. Generally we are allowed outfrom our layouts/demos on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning.

 

If volunteers don't help with the show it won't happen.. ever tried volunteering tochechthe floor markings, put up and place 400+ tables and chairs,run you layout or demo, queue for lunch, then dismantle the show at the end? Well, if you haven't... try doing it sometime.

 

Baz

Likewise - ever tried inviting 90 layouts and 150 trade stands to a show and dealing with all their various needs? That keeps a few volunteers busy all year. And as for getting them all into the hall and set up, well that really is another story. In the early days we used a couple of people on bicycles to show exhibitors to their stand place. I rode over 12 miles on the Friday set up on this duty. The NEC decided bicycles were dangerous despite there never being an incident so now a few people have to do the same job on foot.

[PaulRhB]

11 hours ago, John M Upton said:

If these irritating strikes keep happening,

That’s a little ironic considering the lengthy dispute your company had with staff. 

 

11 hours ago, John M Upton said:

then shows who rely on visitors who use public transport are going to seriously lose out at a time post Covid* when they can least afford it.

How many shows rely that heavily on rail transport? It certainly does bring a lot to shows like Warley and the London shows but many of the smaller shows don’t have great public transport connections. Our club show used to put on a private bus because there weren’t any commercial ones passing from the town centre. Even in London the buses provide an alternative to rail as you can book a national express and then use the local buses. It’s as simple as the rail option apart from having to book in advance for the long haul part if you really want to go. I’m sure you could find buses to Worthing fairly easily if it’s local. You may not be used to their routes but you can usually connect into a decent public transport network in major towns like Fareham and Worthing with a short taxi ride even if you live out in the sticks. 

[Pete the Elaner]

10 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

Free tea and coffee on tap is a must for exhibitors I feel. If it's not going to be free then that needs to be communicated at the time of the booking. You spend a lot of time talking to visitors so having liquid refreshment available is important. 

 

 

I can't stand either. Both taste utterly disgusting to me. I can't ever remember being given a free can of drink.

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I can't stand either. Both taste utterly disgusting to me. I can't ever remember being given a free can of drink.

There’s always water. 

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I can't stand either. Both taste utterly disgusting to me. I can't ever remember being given a free can of drink.

 

We don't want your sort around here, bringing the neighbourhood into disrepute. 😆

[Chris M]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I can't stand either. Both taste utterly disgusting to me. I can't ever remember being given a free can of drink.

A cup of tea costs just a few pence to make, coffee a few pence more. This is much cheaper than a can of anything. Ideally organisers could lay on a bottle of squash for those who don’t like tea or coffee.

[LNERandBR]

There really are a few costs which are 'must haves'.

 

Clearly, keeping the Exhibitors happy via lunches and drink is one of these. 

 

Being involved with a small village hall club show. The biggest issue is finding different layouts each year which are local. This being important to avoid accommodation costs and to keep fuel expenses down.

 

Conversely, getting a layout invites to shows tends to be difficult if you are new to the hobby. Younger people building layouts are out there but the problem being that they aren't always members of traditional clubs. So, they don't get invited to 'their' club show and that prevents them being found by other exhibition managers. 

[RedgateModels]

25 minutes ago, Chris M said:

A cup of tea costs just a few pence to make, coffee a few pence more. This is much cheaper than a can of anything. Ideally organisers could lay on a bottle of squash for those who don’t like tea or coffee.

 

Agreed, at Mansfield we issue lanyards to all exhibitors which gets them unlimited tea and coffee at the Scouts run kitchen downstairs. Upstairs we have a small kitchen where tea & coffee are laid on where exhibitors can help themselves without having to queue at the hatch downstairs. We were concerned at one time that members of the public might sneak in and help themselves but we came to the conclusion that if someone was that desperate for a brew then so be it. It is a charity show after all 😉

 

maybe a bottle of squash might be a good idea for 2023, I'll need decaff tea bags in any case ....

 

I did attend one exhibition (it may have been a Derby one way back, or was it Nottingham???) where there was no on-site catering so shop bought baguettes, crisps and cans of pop etc were laid on.

Edited September 22, 2022 by RedgateModels